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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 1, 2017 21:36:15 GMT -5
Today at the store I over heard this little two year old looking girl, seated in a shopping cart saying, mommy? mommy? mommy? over a dozen times. Her tone was the same, her wait between words was the same, she asked a question, "can I have one of those?" Then began the same, mommy? mommy? mommy? (We wont go into mom ignoring her, or how she handled it). It made me think about her perseverance, lack of fear of rejection, no anger in being ignored, just a constant, steady, "I want something attitude".
Is that a strong personality trait, that some people are born with? Or is it something we all have but gets crushed by our upbringing?
Think of what the rejection from years of a SM does to you?
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Post by Copernicus on Apr 1, 2017 22:19:07 GMT -5
I would think it's both genetic and environment, but probably more the latter. Maybe we're all in our SMs because, as children, we never learned the skills of assertiveness and negotiation, or maybe our spouses just learned the art of manipulation, control and refusal? I'd like to be more assertive, but my W says 'no'.
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Post by McRoomMate on Apr 2, 2017 1:39:32 GMT -5
Yes PAVLOVIAN DOG response. We can get conditioned to servitude and hopelessness and our Instincts and Ambition can be crushed.
As Alduous Huxley once wrote "They will embrace their slavery".
But the AWAKE ONE will become aware of this Toxic situation. Shall we say SITUATIONAL AWARENESS can come alive?
And petty fantasies and pathetic wishes can realize into a PLAN of ACTION and a DECISION can be made.
FREEDOM is NEVER FREE.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 2, 2017 8:44:31 GMT -5
I would think it's both genetic and environment, but probably more the latter. Maybe we're all in our SMs because, as children, we never learned the skills of assertiveness and negotiation, or maybe our spouses just learned the art of manipulation, control and refusal? I'd like to be more assertive, but my W says 'no'. Yea... interesting how the "double bind" keeps happening. A controller says, "I want a man who will be spontaneous ,assertive, aggressive, someone who who has leadership skills..... but he better do as I tell him to, when I tell him to!" |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Apr 2, 2017 10:25:24 GMT -5
I would think it's both genetic and environment, but probably more the latter. Maybe we're all in our SMs because, as children, we never learned the skills of assertiveness and negotiation, or maybe our spouses just learned the art of manipulation, control and refusal? I'd like to be more assertive, but my W says 'no'. Yea... interesting how the "double bind" keeps happening. A controller says, "I want a man who will be spontaneous ,assertive, aggressive, someone who who has leadership skills..... but he better do as I tell him to, when I tell him to!" Well you nailed that one. My partner demands subservient nice guy beta behavior, and then endlessly complains that I am not assertive and knightly enough. I have about had enough. |
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Post by bballgirl on Apr 2, 2017 10:45:50 GMT -5
So this is basically nature vs nurture.
I think individual personality which may be influenced by childhood.
However me and my sister were raised the same way by our parents.
My personality is different than hers. She would have never tolerated a SM.
She is in general more assertive than me but in a bitch kind of way. She's a taker. I think it boils down to givers and takers and most people are takers.
I will never be in a relationship again with a taker. The good news is I have the tools now to recognize them.
So back to the story of the little girl - her parents allow and tolerate that behavior. My children know better it's a taught behavior with that parent "mommy", she may not be able to get away with that with daddy or a teacher.
It's human nature to be a taker especially a 2 year old. Parents need to be parents and teach children limits. However to apply this to our SM situation, our refusers knew they could get away with not fucking us because we enabled them. I accept that responsibility for my failed marriage.
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Post by seabr33z3 on Apr 2, 2017 14:41:19 GMT -5
Today at the store I over heard this little two year old looking girl, seated in a shopping cart saying, mommy? mommy? mommy? over a dozen times. Her tone was the same, her wait between words was the same, she asked a question, "can I have one of those?" Then began the same, mommy? mommy? mommy? (We wont go into mom ignoring her, or how she handled it). It made me think about her perseverance, lack of fear of rejection, no anger in being ignored, just a constant, steady, "I want something attitude". Is that a strong personality trait, that some people are born with? Or is it something we all have but gets crushed by our upbringing? Think of what the rejection from years of a SM does to you? Sorry but I reckon the restraint with the mom is because it was a public place. I am looking at this from a different angle.At home there's only so many " mommy's " one can take before A) giving in for peace and quiet or B) hitting breaking point and lashing out(verbally). It is possible that the child has indeed learned that her persistence pays off. Either sometimes or every time depending on mom's mood or where they are at the time. Applying it to those in SM's could be looked at in different ways. I see the mom in this instance as being the stoic one. The refused. The one who despite all the odds manages on the surface to carry on in the face of adversity. There may be something else going on internally, but to the world it's the appearance of normality. The child is the controller. The refuser. The one who won't compromise. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 2, 2017 16:55:41 GMT -5
I was considering how calm and steady the little girl sounded. Mom managed to tell her "not right now" and avoid it. This was about the 4th run of mommy, mommy,mommy, as they moved around the store. I rather admired the little girls persistence, and how undaunted she was. Like she almost expected to be told no.
It made me think of my lack of persistence, how easy I cave, give up. How I take being rejected,"no" from the beginning . So that I might get a crumb, or even if I am a "squeaky wheel" the grease is a tiny amount, enough to shut me up for a while. "re-set". Being the stoic one. The refused.
It also reminded me of how every response from my STBX starts with, "NO". How many decades I was unaware of it. Now when I hear it ( a red flag) I automatically, recognize the instant reversal, condemnation, rejection of my words and actions. Almost a childlike, controlling ,reaction.
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Post by seabr33z3 on Apr 2, 2017 17:14:59 GMT -5
I was considering how calm and steady the little girl sounded. Mom managed to tell her "not right now" and avoid it. This was about the 4th run of mommy, mommy,mommy, as they moved around the store. I rather admired the little girls persistence, and how undaunted she was. Like she almost expected to be told no. It made me think of my lack of persistence, how easy I cave, give up, take being rejected,"no" from the beginning that I might get a crumb, or even if I am a "squeaky wheel" the grease is a tiny amount, enough to shut me up for a while. "re-set". Being the stoic one. The refused. It also reminded me of how every response from my STBX starts with, "NO". How many decades I was unaware of it. Now when I hear it I automatically, recognize the instant reversal, condemnation, rejection of my words and actions. Almost a childlike, controlling ,reaction. But in reality...would persisting in this way have got a result? You're reflecting on your perceived lack of persistence,but even if she had begrudgingly conceded, is that enough? For me it's back to them wanting to want, not giving in because of one's persistence.IMO |
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Post by mrslowmaintenance on Apr 2, 2017 17:17:28 GMT -5
I think it can be both but I would like to add...
My 3 year old will be making full eye contact with me and still say "mom, mom, mom, mommy, mommy, ma..."
Me: "Yes June?"
Her "Watch this"
I want to pull my hair out, I am looking at you crazy child, you don't have to say mom a hundred time to tell me to continue doing what I am doing gggaaaahhhhhh
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Post by bballgirl on Apr 2, 2017 17:20:50 GMT -5
Sometimes my son calls me by my first name when I don't answer to mom.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 2, 2017 18:16:07 GMT -5
I think it can be both but I would like to add... My 3 year old will be making full eye contact with me and still say "mom, mom, mom, mommy, mommy, ma..." Me: "Yes June?" Her "Watch this" I want to pull my hair out, I am looking at you crazy child, you don't have to say mom a hundred time to tell me to continue doing what I am doing gggaaaahhhhhh She's letting you know "I want to be cherished and admired" You better give me some praise, dang it!!! |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 2, 2017 18:17:52 GMT -5
Sometimes my son calls me by my first name when I don't answer to mom. I think Bill Cosby did a routine about that. When your parent calls you by your middle name!! |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 2, 2017 18:24:10 GMT -5
I was considering how calm and steady the little girl sounded. Mom managed to tell her "not right now" and avoid it. This was about the 4th run of mommy, mommy,mommy, as they moved around the store. I rather admired the little girls persistence, and how undaunted she was. Like she almost expected to be told no. It made me think of my lack of persistence, how easy I cave, give up, take being rejected,"no" from the beginning that I might get a crumb, or even if I am a "squeaky wheel" the grease is a tiny amount, enough to shut me up for a while. "re-set". Being the stoic one. The refused. It also reminded me of how every response from my STBX starts with, "NO". How many decades I was unaware of it. Now when I hear it I automatically, recognize the instant reversal, condemnation, rejection of my words and actions. Almost a childlike, controlling ,reaction. But in reality...would persisting in this way have got a result? You're reflecting on your perceived lack of persistence,but even if she had begrudgingly conceded, is that enough? For me it's back to them wanting to want, not giving in because of one's persistence.IMO All true!! That goes back to the FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) being too heavy. The last thing I wanted in my marriage was to be a constant boundary setter and enforcer. Still a problem to this day. The lack of not wanting, seems to revolve heavily on the lack of not wanting to give up control. Persisting would have resulted in a early divorce, and no children. |
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Post by warmways on Apr 2, 2017 21:24:21 GMT -5
This is so interesting. I think it's both nature and nurture. My sis and I are very different. She would never have put up with the control and manipulations. She'd recognize the BS right away and call him on it. I think differently and am an extreme giver - I tend to want to keep everything happy and peaceful and she is more balanced and had always been sort of called selfish but in a good way. She knows her boundaries and sticks to her guns. My mom always tells this story of when I was about three and she was five. We had ice cream cones and my mom asked for a bite. I immediately gave my mom my cone while my sister pulled hers close to er chest and shook her head no.
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