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Post by lakeside4003 on Mar 20, 2017 13:09:47 GMT -5
ouch, had to think about that example a few times...
my setting involves too much 'blame' in that I get it all. I can/do own up to a massive amount of blame for my behaviors/attitudes - but the core dynamic of our failed marriage is that my wife has incredible difficulty owning up to any of her issues. She's once again dismissed the latest therapist that we had been seeing as we got too close to the truth of ILIASM and the impact it has on us. this has now happened 4X over the last 10 years.
'Blame' ultimately is not what to focus on (the game is already lost by both teams, so who cares what the score is?) - rather, find your 'true north' and stay the path...
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 20, 2017 14:10:34 GMT -5
ouch, had to think about that example a few times... my setting involves too much 'blame' in that I get it all. I can/do own up to a massive amount of blame for my behaviors/attitudes - but the core dynamic of our failed marriage is that my wife has incredible difficulty owning up to any of her issues. She's once again dismissed the latest therapist that we had been seeing as we got too close to the truth of ILIASM and the impact it has on us. this has now happened 4X over the last 10 years. 'Blame' ultimately is not what to focus on (the game is already lost by both teams, so who cares what the score is?) - rather, find your 'true north' and stay the path... Who cares what the score is? Well ...I do. For now. My thoughts are about what I did wrong, and how to fix my own personal behavior. Being willing to change. Working for a better future for myself. I also strongly believe it will include spotting the negative, controlling behaviors and attitudes of others, and steering clear. Are you possibly dealing with a large amount of guilt? www.facebook.com/Shrink4Men/ |
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Post by shamwow on Mar 20, 2017 15:19:49 GMT -5
I've come to realize that my wife and I have never truly been married. Sure we're legally married. We've lived together for over 20 years, we've had kids, parented, bought houses, all the things normal married people do. But we've never been emotionally married. Something has always been missing. There's never been an intimate bond between us. There's never been a 'We'. There's been two individuals but no We. I understand that one needs to maintain their individuality in marriage but I also know that there needs to be that sense of a We to truly bond and that we have never been able to accomplish. So how can something that never existed in the first place be broken? I started thinking about this as I thought about therapy. I'll say up front that I'm not a big fan of therapy. I've not had good experiences. We've gone to therapy in the past for short periods and it didn't seem to help at all. I hope I'm not trying to rationalize away any need to try further therapy. When I think about therapy and its purpose I think one is trying to 'fix' a marriage that was on the right track and for whatever reason has lost its way. Therapy is to help you find your way again. It is not the place to build a relationship that never existed in the first place. I'm thinking therapy, as in marriage therapy, would not be helpful. In this case I can see the value of individual therapy or even couples therapy to deal with the impending breakup but not as a way to try to find a way to save the marriage. Am I way out in left field and just trying to avoid therapy? Wow! I can so relate to this. One thing I will say though, therapy is not just about fixing things. Some things just can't be fixed. Therapy, (both single and couples) can be a way of voicing your thoughts and emotions in a controlled environment. Whether one plans to stay or leave, the therapy can be a good way of vocalising clearly why you are feeling the way you are feeling. Communication or lack thereof in SM's is very real. Having a mediator to draw both parties out can be invaluable for some. Don't think of it as just being a way to try to repair things, just use it for the purpose that suits your needs. Bingo! I asked my wife for a divorce at the end of January. We are now setting up counseling...not to save our marriage, but how to best navigate through the process of dissolving it and doing the least damage possible to our kids. I would say that counseling could do good if both people have a common goal, are motivated to achieve it, and work hard to do so. If both have different goals? No way. In my case, it's making sure the kids are OK. I think we may have some success on that goal with counseling. |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Mar 21, 2017 7:39:18 GMT -5
What a great post! It brought tears to my eyes because I remember realizing what you wrote of, the fact that there wasn't much marriage or emotions in my marriage. We had kids, bought houses, cars, took trips, etc. However there wasn't the emotional bond to cultivate the husband wife relationship. It seems you have reached a new stage that is giving you some peace and maybe forgiveness which is helpful to you. About 9 months after my divorce, a hurricane came through so as a family unit we stayed together under one roof for about 30 hours. What I realized was we were divorced while we were married. All we did was make it legal once someone (me) had the courage to pull the plug. Life does go on. We are friends and co parents. A couple of times a month we go to dinner together with the kids. So there is life after divorce and it can be amicable. I remember coming to this realization too - and then "testing" it for days/weeks. I would observe what was going on (say, my Dad's 90th birthday party) and how we related to (or avoided) each other. I would note all the "little nasties" and digs I received. I managed to mostly not snap back, and just make a mental note. I looked at how others there related to their partners too. Vast differences. I realized that my H was much more congenial in conversations that did not include me. I could freeze up an ongoing laughter by just walking over near a small group where he was entertaining my relatives with his wit. So - even though I questioned whether my realization (we don't even act married) was accurate, I put it to the test of observing and it was confirmed. I saw him treat (& engage) cashiers at a store with more manners than he showed to me. Back when we had been living together (for 8 years together prior to marrying) - I felt that we were a couple and so we may as well do the legal paperwork that society uses to acknowledge that as a fact. (I know - I am no romantic, really - it was a bit business like, parts of that process to choose to propose to him) Those 17 years later, it was a similar choice - let's do the legal paperwork to simply acknowledge what I already knew: we were done. I said that in the single counseling session I had agreed to and he disagreed with my observation. (Since he hadn't REALLY noticed me abandoning my subservient role, he still mostly thought things were "ok" between us.) It was startling to me, even though I knew, that the state of the marriage was something he considered acceptable. I was DYING inside - I hated spending time with him. HOW could that be ok? It had seemed okay to him because I still used all my paychecks to pay for things he decided on, he determined were needed, he selected. For him, it did get to be SO much about the money and as long as my money flowed to his agenda, he didn't know (or care to notice) that I was miserably unhappy. Startling. |
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Post by bballgirl on Mar 21, 2017 7:51:28 GMT -5
What a great post! It brought tears to my eyes because I remember realizing what you wrote of, the fact that there wasn't much marriage or emotions in my marriage. We had kids, bought houses, cars, took trips, etc. However there wasn't the emotional bond to cultivate the husband wife relationship. It seems you have reached a new stage that is giving you some peace and maybe forgiveness which is helpful to you. About 9 months after my divorce, a hurricane came through so as a family unit we stayed together under one roof for about 30 hours. What I realized was we were divorced while we were married. All we did was make it legal once someone (me) had the courage to pull the plug. Life does go on. We are friends and co parents. A couple of times a month we go to dinner together with the kids. So there is life after divorce and it can be amicable. I remember coming to this realization too - and then "testing" it for days/weeks. I would observe what was going on (say, my Dad's 90th birthday party) and how we related to (or avoided) each other. I would note all the "little nasties" and digs I received. I managed to mostly not snap back, and just make a mental note. I looked at how others there related to their partners too. Vast differences. I realized that my H was much more congenial in conversations that did not include me. I could freeze up an ongoing laughter by just walking over near a small group where he was entertaining my relatives with his wit. So - even though I questioned whether my realization (we don't even act married) was accurate, I put it to the test of observing and it was confirmed. I saw him treat (& engage) cashiers at a store with more manners than he showed to me. Back when we had been living together (for 8 years together prior to marrying) - I felt that we were a couple and so we may as well do the legal paperwork that society uses to acknowledge that as a fact. (I know - I am no romantic, really - it was a bit business like, parts of that process to choose to propose to him) Those 17 years later, it was a similar choice - let's do the legal paperwork to simply acknowledge what I already knew: we were done. I said that in the single counseling session I had agreed to and he disagreed with my observation. (Since he hadn't REALLY noticed me abandoning my subservient role, he still mostly thought things were "ok" between us.) It was startling to me, even though I knew, that the state of the marriage was something he considered acceptable. I was DYING inside - I hated spending time with him. HOW could that be ok? It had seemed okay to him because I still used all my paychecks to pay for things he decided on, he determined were needed, he selected. For him, it did get to be SO much about the money and as long as my money flowed to his agenda, he didn't know (or care to notice) that I was miserably unhappy. Startling. I did the same exact thing. Ran tests, noticed things, made observations, etc. I realized that he didn't love me based on his actions and things he said to me. He told me a few times that I disgust him. I thought, I could never say that to someone I didn't like let alone someone I love. Another time at a family function, there was one slow song played, every couple got up to dance but us he ignored me. I was a cook, a maid, took care of the kids and an extra paycheck for him. That came to an end. I have since danced with men and they tell me I'm beautiful. |
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Post by iceman on Mar 21, 2017 8:00:05 GMT -5
Nope. Trying to find blame is no longer there for me and it's actually very liberating. I know I'm not perfect and we're both to blame to some degree. This is just a case of fundamental incompatibility. Now we need to figure out how to untangle ourselves from this mess. Hopefully she will come to see it this way as well. She is very big on finding blame in all situations. Oh that is very well said. Very well indeed. "FUNDAMENTAL INCOMPATIBILITY" - and blame game is a waste of time entirely. Good stuff ! ! ! When my "Moment of Truth" comes and if also fingers are pointed and accusations made - I will well exceptionally go with the Old Maxime "Turn the Other Cheek" - Definitely do not engage - just stick to script "a tremendous amount of soul searching and meditating put in this decision already so at this point non-negotiable" If war is wanted it will come later at time and place of my choosing with lawyers if necessary - I hope it does not come to that, but a possibility and contingency to be ready for. Good advice. That's my approach as well. Attributing blame or analyzing what went wrong serves no purpose now. I expect a certain degree of hostility. I'd be shocked if there were none. I'll do my best to let her have her say and turn the other cheek without engaging in the hostilities. I'll probably even take more than I should to keep the peace, well relative peace. I have my non-negotiable items as well, and it goes too far it becomes a matter for the lawyers to wade through, I really hope it doesn't come to that and we can keep our dignity. |
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Post by iceman on Mar 21, 2017 8:23:11 GMT -5
I've come to realize that my wife and I have never truly been married. Sure we're legally married. We've lived together for over 20 years, we've had kids, parented, bought houses, all the things normal married people do. But we've never been emotionally married. Something has always been missing. There's never been an intimate bond between us. There's never been a 'We'. There's been two individuals but no We. I understand that one needs to maintain their individuality in marriage but I also know that there needs to be that sense of a We to truly bond and that we have never been able to accomplish. So how can something that never existed in the first place be broken? I started thinking about this as I thought about therapy. I'll say up front that I'm not a big fan of therapy. I've not had good experiences. We've gone to therapy in the past for short periods and it didn't seem to help at all. I hope I'm not trying to rationalize away any need to try further therapy. When I think about therapy and its purpose I think one is trying to 'fix' a marriage that was on the right track and for whatever reason has lost its way. Therapy is to help you find your way again. It is not the place to build a relationship that never existed in the first place. I'm thinking therapy, as in marriage therapy, would not be helpful. In this case I can see the value of individual therapy or even couples therapy to deal with the impending breakup but not as a way to try to find a way to save the marriage. Am I way out in left field and just trying to avoid therapy? Wow! I can so relate to this. One thing I will say though, therapy is not just about fixing things. Some things just can't be fixed. Therapy, (both single and couples) can be a way of voicing your thoughts and emotions in a controlled environment. Whether one plans to stay or leave, the therapy can be a good way of vocalising clearly why you are feeling the way you are feeling. Communication or lack thereof in SM's is very real. Having a mediator to draw both parties out can be invaluable for some. Don't think of it as just being a way to try to repair things, just use it for the purpose that suits your needs. Fair point. I think therapy as a vehicle to be able to air emotions and feeling without judgement and maybe get a detached third party perspective can be quite helpful. I intend to do that. Not as a couple, just me. Hopefully, my wife will do the same. I've been through one divorce, an amicable divorce, and even that really messed with my mind. This one is going to be much more stressful for me. And using couples therapy as a form of mediation to just communicate while we're going through the divorce process would be helpful. You're right about communication and SM's. There is very little which only complicates things. My W and I only really communicate about our children and the business of running our household. Outside of that we pretty much live separate lives. |
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Post by iceman on Mar 21, 2017 8:28:14 GMT -5
Wow! I can so relate to this. One thing I will say though, therapy is not just about fixing things. Some things just can't be fixed. Therapy, (both single and couples) can be a way of voicing your thoughts and emotions in a controlled environment. Whether one plans to stay or leave, the therapy can be a good way of vocalising clearly why you are feeling the way you are feeling. Communication or lack thereof in SM's is very real. Having a mediator to draw both parties out can be invaluable for some. Don't think of it as just being a way to try to repair things, just use it for the purpose that suits your needs. Bingo! I asked my wife for a divorce at the end of January. We are now setting up counseling...not to save our marriage, but how to best navigate through the process of dissolving it and doing the least damage possible to our kids. I would say that counseling could do good if both people have a common goal, are motivated to achieve it, and work hard to do so. If both have different goals? No way. In my case, it's making sure the kids are OK. I think we may have some success on that goal with counseling. That's how I see any couples counseling for us as well. It won't be to address the why or try to get back together. It will help us navigate through he process of splitting up, and in particular make sure our children are okay. |
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Post by iceman on Mar 21, 2017 8:30:41 GMT -5
ouch, had to think about that example a few times... my setting involves too much 'blame' in that I get it all. I can/do own up to a massive amount of blame for my behaviors/attitudes - but the core dynamic of our failed marriage is that my wife has incredible difficulty owning up to any of her issues. She's once again dismissed the latest therapist that we had been seeing as we got too close to the truth of ILIASM and the impact it has on us. this has now happened 4X over the last 10 years. 'Blame' ultimately is not what to focus on (the game is already lost by both teams, so who cares what the score is?) - rather, find your 'true north' and stay the path... Well said. Blame is pointless and it just muddle things up and makes the whole process more difficult and longer. |
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Post by iceman on Mar 21, 2017 8:39:12 GMT -5
What a great post! It brought tears to my eyes because I remember realizing what you wrote of, the fact that there wasn't much marriage or emotions in my marriage. We had kids, bought houses, cars, took trips, etc. However there wasn't the emotional bond to cultivate the husband wife relationship. It seems you have reached a new stage that is giving you some peace and maybe forgiveness which is helpful to you. About 9 months after my divorce, a hurricane came through so as a family unit we stayed together under one roof for about 30 hours. What I realized was we were divorced while we were married. All we did was make it legal once someone (me) had the courage to pull the plug. Life does go on. We are friends and co parents. A couple of times a month we go to dinner together with the kids. So there is life after divorce and it can be amicable. Being divorced while still married is a very good way to describe my situation. We really lead very separate lives. We come together for our children and no more than is absolutely necessary to keep the house running, and that's about it. It it is somewhat peaceful to have this epiphany. No more banging my head against a wall and try to fix what can't be fixed. It feels like a load has been lifted from me. Now I just need to work up the courage to make it legal. |
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Post by bballgirl on Mar 21, 2017 9:16:54 GMT -5
What a great post! It brought tears to my eyes because I remember realizing what you wrote of, the fact that there wasn't much marriage or emotions in my marriage. We had kids, bought houses, cars, took trips, etc. However there wasn't the emotional bond to cultivate the husband wife relationship. It seems you have reached a new stage that is giving you some peace and maybe forgiveness which is helpful to you. About 9 months after my divorce, a hurricane came through so as a family unit we stayed together under one roof for about 30 hours. What I realized was we were divorced while we were married. All we did was make it legal once someone (me) had the courage to pull the plug. Life does go on. We are friends and co parents. A couple of times a month we go to dinner together with the kids. So there is life after divorce and it can be amicable. Being divorced while still married is a very good way to describe my situation. We really lead very separate lives. We come together for our children and no more than is absolutely necessary to keep the house running, and that's about it. It it is somewhat peaceful to have this epiphany. No more banging my head against a wall and try to fix what can't be fixed. It feels like a load has been lifted from me. Now I just need to work up the courage to make it legal. It took me awhile to have that epiphany and find peace too. I'm a fixer by nature. Now I'm fixing my life. Announcing the divorce was the hardest thing I have ever done. It took so much courage and I sort of had to become someone that I'm really not. I was very robotic, lawyer like, and unempathetic. I became selfish for myself and my future. I think what fueled my courage was the fact that I wasn't getting any younger. |
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