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Post by iceman on Mar 17, 2017 9:20:43 GMT -5
I've come to realize that my wife and I have never truly been married. Sure we're legally married. We've lived together for over 20 years, we've had kids, parented, bought houses, all the things normal married people do. But we've never been emotionally married. Something has always been missing. There's never been an intimate bond between us. There's never been a 'We'. There's been two individuals but no We. I understand that one needs to maintain their individuality in marriage but I also know that there needs to be that sense of a We to truly bond and that we have never been able to accomplish.
So how can something that never existed in the first place be broken? I started thinking about this as I thought about therapy. I'll say up front that I'm not a big fan of therapy. I've not had good experiences. We've gone to therapy in the past for short periods and it didn't seem to help at all. I hope I'm not trying to rationalize away any need to try further therapy. When I think about therapy and its purpose I think one is trying to 'fix' a marriage that was on the right track and for whatever reason has lost its way. Therapy is to help you find your way again. It is not the place to build a relationship that never existed in the first place. I'm thinking therapy, as in marriage therapy, would not be helpful. In this case I can see the value of individual therapy or even couples therapy to deal with the impending breakup but not as a way to try to find a way to save the marriage. Am I way out in left field and just trying to avoid therapy?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 9:47:29 GMT -5
I do not think you're trying to avoid therapy. Why fix something that has never worked?
It sounds like you have honestly started to evaluate your marriage.
It's amazing the transformation that can happen from joining this forum. You begin to realize and see the dysfunctional and lacking aspects of an unhealthy marriage.
I asked my wife to go to therapy when we were having problems. She refused to go. I'm glad that this happened because it brought me here. I also started to work on myself and stop worrying about my marriage. In a marriage, if only one of you changes, then there is not much hope for the marriage. There's great hope for the one who changes.
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Post by dinnaken on Mar 17, 2017 16:13:14 GMT -5
Hi Iceman,
No, I do not think you are wide of the mark. I found your comments here really interesting because I have always said to myself that my wife and I were never a true couple; even as it ends after 26 years, I don't think my marriage ever truly got started. As you say "There has never been a 'We' - that is certainly how I have always thought of my marriage. It was one of the failures at the core of the relationship. We never grew together, surely that is the role of intimacy and, as many here have observed, 'it's not just about sex' it's that absence of intimacy that is so corrosive to the relationship.
My wife never took up my suggestion of couples counselling; realistically, it was probably pointless. There was, as you observe, nothing to fix.
You speak of avoiding therapy like that's a bad thing but therapy only has a point if it's appropriate for you and delivered by an effective counsellor. My experience of counselling (for marriage and workplace problems) has been mixed. I have no doubt that therapy can be very good for some but my experience has ranged from very poor (sex therapy) to good (telephone counsellor) with shades between from OK to 'this is fairly pointless'.
It strikes me that you've made a pretty honest appraisal of where your marriage is 'at'.
Best wishes
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Post by unmatched on Mar 17, 2017 17:44:10 GMT -5
I always thought if you go into therapy with the goal of fixing your marriage you are probably doomed from the start. If you go in for help with opening up to each other and communicating better and trying to understand what is going on between you and maybe being able to make some better choices - then it can be incredibly useful. (If you are both invested in it.) But the choices you or your partner make may or may not have anything to do with fixing anything.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 17, 2017 18:59:34 GMT -5
I can relate to this all to well. In the beginning there was a pretty good effort for the "we" part. With time the we part became more and more of a what can you do that pleases "me" (my spouse)? The underlying answer was (it will never be enough). So much of the relationship ended up with me feeling like I did a whole lot of giving, and getting told (subtly) it's still not enough, or it's incorrect. Not a very good self esteem builder is it?
Then comes the realization from time to time. "I sure do a lot of giving?" Then comes the brave attempts with thoughts of "hello, I am over here, you know the one who does all the household work, raises the kids, helps your career, puts up with your relatives, praises you, compliments you, sacrifices to make you happy, etc... how about some intimacy, maybe even sex?" Only to get rejected!
Judging yourself by what one person thinks/feels about you is no way to have a "we" relationship. That gives to much control. Including those of us who were destined to believe, "I can help this person". That involves change. All that ,"self sacrifice" doesn't leave much "self" does it?
I will say that my "therapy" was a place to bring out many of the harsh realities. Leading back to the beginning of your post. The never being emotionally married. I have posted before, several of those "final nail in the coffin, tipping point momments" that where said during therapy. All while trying to "save" the marriage. A lot of finger pointing goes on. It's what you choose to do with this "new information" that can be very helpful.
I believe we both thought (from different perspectives) this is over. Only my STBX would have been okay to let it drag on for a few more years for financial reasons. Her loss and my gain. Like so much of what we read and others have posted. MONEY is a factor.
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Post by seabr33z3 on Mar 17, 2017 21:02:53 GMT -5
I've come to realize that my wife and I have never truly been married. Sure we're legally married. We've lived together for over 20 years, we've had kids, parented, bought houses, all the things normal married people do. But we've never been emotionally married. Something has always been missing. There's never been an intimate bond between us. There's never been a 'We'. There's been two individuals but no We. I understand that one needs to maintain their individuality in marriage but I also know that there needs to be that sense of a We to truly bond and that we have never been able to accomplish. So how can something that never existed in the first place be broken? I started thinking about this as I thought about therapy. I'll say up front that I'm not a big fan of therapy. I've not had good experiences. We've gone to therapy in the past for short periods and it didn't seem to help at all. I hope I'm not trying to rationalize away any need to try further therapy. When I think about therapy and its purpose I think one is trying to 'fix' a marriage that was on the right track and for whatever reason has lost its way. Therapy is to help you find your way again. It is not the place to build a relationship that never existed in the first place. I'm thinking therapy, as in marriage therapy, would not be helpful. In this case I can see the value of individual therapy or even couples therapy to deal with the impending breakup but not as a way to try to find a way to save the marriage. Am I way out in left field and just trying to avoid therapy? Wow! I can so relate to this. One thing I will say though, therapy is not just about fixing things. Some things just can't be fixed. Therapy, (both single and couples) can be a way of voicing your thoughts and emotions in a controlled environment. Whether one plans to stay or leave, the therapy can be a good way of vocalising clearly why you are feeling the way you are feeling. Communication or lack thereof in SM's is very real. Having a mediator to draw both parties out can be invaluable for some. Don't think of it as just being a way to try to repair things, just use it for the purpose that suits your needs. |
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Post by Copernicus on Mar 17, 2017 22:33:19 GMT -5
I can relate to this all to well. In the beginning there was a pretty good effort for the "we" part. With time the we part became more and more of a what can you do that pleases "me" (my spouse)? The underlying answer was (it will never be enough). So much of the relationship ended up with me feeling like I did a whole lot of giving, and getting told (subtly) it's still not enough, or it's incorrect. Not a very good self esteem builder is it? Do you hear that noise?... It's the sound of the post resonating with me. Somehow it's 'never enough! Case in point: I bought my w a white gold adjustable neck chain for Christmas (close to $1k). She opened it, looked at it, and then asked me for the receipt so that she could take it back. Apparently, the chain was a tad too thick! Another failure, so I'll go stand in the naughty corner. |
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lostheart
Junior Member
Posts: 22 
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by lostheart on Mar 18, 2017 5:46:24 GMT -5
I've come to realize that my wife and I have never truly been married. Sure we're legally married. We've lived together for over 20 years, we've had kids, parented, bought houses, all the things normal married people do. But we've never been emotionally married. Something has always been missing. There's never been an intimate bond between us. There's never been a 'We'. There's been two individuals but no We. I understand that one needs to maintain their individuality in marriage but I also know that there needs to be that sense of a We to truly bond and that we have never been able to accomplish. So how can something that never existed in the first place be broken? I started thinking about this as I thought about therapy. I'll say up front that I'm not a big fan of therapy. I've not had good experiences. We've gone to therapy in the past for short periods and it didn't seem to help at all. I hope I'm not trying to rationalize away any need to try further therapy. When I think about therapy and its purpose I think one is trying to 'fix' a marriage that was on the right track and for whatever reason has lost its way. Therapy is to help you find your way again. It is not the place to build a relationship that never existed in the first place. I'm thinking therapy, as in marriage therapy, would not be helpful. In this case I can see the value of individual therapy or even couples therapy to deal with the impending breakup but not as a way to try to find a way to save the marriage. Am I way out in left field and just trying to avoid therapy? I suppose I feel quite similar about therapy and my marriage these days. Once again, my H and I were shortly before starting another sexual therapy (tried before twice, but had to be interrupted once bcos of moving). Don't know if it's the same everywhere but in this European country sexual therapy is usually behaviour therapy that tries to take away anxiety/ inhibitions from getting closer to one another again by becoming more intimate gradually without being sexual in the beginning (to explain it roughly and in a "non-expert" or "half-expert"  way). But I realized it didn't work before but primarily how can you awaken a desire that hasn't been there in the first place? My H doesn't get aroused by touching, he thinks it's nice like cuddling a pet or beloved relative, that's how he always reacted - and how he felt with any other relationship before. Intercourse, the few times it took place, was more like a technical act that was carried through but not out of lust/ sensuality. However how can lust or desire that hasn't existed in the first place be "awakened"? About the emotional relationship I'm personally not so sure I did love him a lot and still love him in some way but different - but has that ever been an emotional relationship in that sense? I think I am quite confused at this point |
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Post by baza on Mar 18, 2017 6:41:22 GMT -5
Therapy is a guidance tool to help you find your truth.
That truth might be that your marriage is salvagable.
It might be that your marriage is a dead duck.
That truth may be what you'd like it to be.
It might be what you would NOT like it to be.
That truth might mean you have no big choices to make.
It might mean that you have some extremely difficult choices to make.
The preferred outcome of therapy ("to save the marriage' as an example) can NOT be mandated.
*If* you have a therapist who thinks you CAN mandate the outcome, then I personally would very much doubt their competency.
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 18, 2017 8:26:29 GMT -5
I've come to realize that my wife and I have never truly been married. Sure we're legally married. We've lived together for over 20 years, we've had kids, parented, bought houses, all the things normal married people do. But we've never been emotionally married. Something has always been missing. There's never been an intimate bond between us. There's never been a 'We'. There's been two individuals but no We. I understand that one needs to maintain their individuality in marriage but I also know that there needs to be that sense of a We to truly bond and that we have never been able to accomplish. So how can something that never existed in the first place be broken? I started thinking about this as I thought about therapy. I'll say up front that I'm not a big fan of therapy. I've not had good experiences. We've gone to therapy in the past for short periods and it didn't seem to help at all. I hope I'm not trying to rationalize away any need to try further therapy. When I think about therapy and its purpose I think one is trying to 'fix' a marriage that was on the right track and for whatever reason has lost its way. Therapy is to help you find your way again. It is not the place to build a relationship that never existed in the first place. I'm thinking therapy, as in marriage therapy, would not be helpful. In this case I can see the value of individual therapy or even couples therapy to deal with the impending breakup but not as a way to try to find a way to save the marriage. Am I way out in left field and just trying to avoid therapy? MUSIC TO MY EARS - Pleasure to read - Totally synched with your view on the above Word for word - perfect. The only thing that is "missing" so I thought is whose fault is it - but noooooo it is not missing, that is not relevant anymore at all. Excellent post. |
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Post by iceman on Mar 20, 2017 10:19:06 GMT -5
I've come to realize that my wife and I have never truly been married. Sure we're legally married. We've lived together for over 20 years, we've had kids, parented, bought houses, all the things normal married people do. But we've never been emotionally married. Something has always been missing. There's never been an intimate bond between us. There's never been a 'We'. There's been two individuals but no We. I understand that one needs to maintain their individuality in marriage but I also know that there needs to be that sense of a We to truly bond and that we have never been able to accomplish. So how can something that never existed in the first place be broken? I started thinking about this as I thought about therapy. I'll say up front that I'm not a big fan of therapy. I've not had good experiences. We've gone to therapy in the past for short periods and it didn't seem to help at all. I hope I'm not trying to rationalize away any need to try further therapy. When I think about therapy and its purpose I think one is trying to 'fix' a marriage that was on the right track and for whatever reason has lost its way. Therapy is to help you find your way again. It is not the place to build a relationship that never existed in the first place. I'm thinking therapy, as in marriage therapy, would not be helpful. In this case I can see the value of individual therapy or even couples therapy to deal with the impending breakup but not as a way to try to find a way to save the marriage. Am I way out in left field and just trying to avoid therapy? MUSIC TO MY EARS - Pleasure to read - Totally synched with your view on the above Word for word - perfect. The only thing that is "missing" so I thought is whose fault is it - but noooooo it is not missing, that is not relevant anymore at all. Excellent post. Nope. Trying to find blame is no longer there for me and it's actually very liberating. I know I'm not perfect and we're both to blame to some degree. This is just a case of fundamental incompatibility. Now we need to figure out how to untangle ourselves from this mess. Hopefully she will come to see it this way as well. She is very big on finding blame in all situations. |
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Post by bballgirl on Mar 20, 2017 10:46:26 GMT -5
What a great post! It brought tears to my eyes because I remember realizing what you wrote of, the fact that there wasn't much marriage or emotions in my marriage. We had kids, bought houses, cars, took trips, etc. However there wasn't the emotional bond to cultivate the husband wife relationship.
It seems you have reached a new stage that is giving you some peace and maybe forgiveness which is helpful to you.
About 9 months after my divorce, a hurricane came through so as a family unit we stayed together under one roof for about 30 hours. What I realized was we were divorced while we were married. All we did was make it legal once someone (me) had the courage to pull the plug.
Life does go on. We are friends and co parents. A couple of times a month we go to dinner together with the kids. So there is life after divorce and it can be amicable.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 20, 2017 11:19:48 GMT -5
Phew, that's a shoe drop, huh? (been there, done that).
It's a kick in the gut. It's heart break. It is also a truth that can set you on a more joyful path.
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 20, 2017 12:09:57 GMT -5
Nope. Trying to find blame is no longer there for me and it's actually very liberating. I know I'm not perfect and we're both to blame to some degree. This is just a case of fundamental incompatibility. Now we need to figure out how to untangle ourselves from this mess. Hopefully she will come to see it this way as well. She is very big on finding blame in all situations. Oh that is very well said. Very well indeed. "FUNDAMENTAL INCOMPATIBILITY" - and blame game is a waste of time entirely. Good stuff ! ! ! When my "Moment of Truth" comes and if also fingers are pointed and accusations made - I will well exceptionally go with the Old Maxime "Turn the Other Cheek" - Definitely do not engage - just stick to script "a tremendous amount of soul searching and meditating put in this decision already so at this point non-negotiable" If war is wanted it will come later at time and place of my choosing with lawyers if necessary - I hope it does not come to that, but a possibility and contingency to be ready for. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 20, 2017 12:26:28 GMT -5
MUSIC TO MY EARS - Pleasure to read - Totally synched with your view on the above Word for word - perfect. The only thing that is "missing" so I thought is whose fault is it - but noooooo it is not missing, that is not relevant anymore at all. Excellent post. Nope. Trying to find blame is no longer there for me and it's actually very liberating. I know I'm not perfect and we're both to blame to some degree. This is just a case of fundamental incompatibility. Now we need to figure out how to untangle ourselves from this mess. Hopefully she will come to see it this way as well. She is very big on finding blame in all situations. "She is very big on finding blame in all situations". I can certainly understand that one! Lots of DARVO getting thrown at you. "I know I'm not perfect and we're both to blame to some degree." Well there is truth in that statement. Think of this example. You own a store, you run the register. You sell and exchange money for services and goods with your customers. 99.9% of your customers abide by the boundaries that are set. One customer decides to rob your store. They hold a gun to your head and make you give them all the possessions of the store and take all your money. You abide by their demands for fear of what could happen to you, and the other customers. Have you done something wrong? How many people are going to scorn you for not protecting yourself? Is the law on your side? Do you deserve 50% of the blame? Do you deserve any % of the blame? Now suppose this robber starts steeling your money daily? You refuse to do anything about it. Your never going to call the law, and you continue to put your fellow customers at risk. Now do you deserve any % of the blame? |
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way). But I realized it didn't work before but primarily how can you awaken a desire that hasn't been there in the first place? My H doesn't get aroused by touching, he thinks it's nice like cuddling a pet or beloved relative, that's how he always reacted - and how he felt with any other relationship before. Intercourse, the few times it took place, was more like a technical act that was carried through but not out of lust/ sensuality. However how can lust or desire that hasn't existed in the first place be "awakened"? 
