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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 10:25:13 GMT -5
It seems so easy to look at SM in a negative light. I would like to challenge others to see it as a push for growth and personal development.
These are just some things that SM has taught me.
1. Stop grieving for the past and the future.
a. I no longer bring up the past in my relationship.
b. I do not fantasize about something special in the future
c. I just live for today
d. There is real freedom in this. I can't change the past nor do I know the future. I can change today with good decisions.
2. Pick yourself up and begin the hard work of change
a. First step for me was to begin to take care of my physical health
1. eating right and exercising again
2. getting a good night's sleep
3. without a strong body, it'll be much more difficult to face your emotional state
4. it says a lot about a person who is willing to do the work to keep themselves fit
5. the discipline you learn in staying fit can be used to change your emotional state
b. Working on my emotional health
1. educating myself and reading deeply on relationship issues
2. honesty about my own personality problems
a. realizing the role that I played in the SM
b. realizing that if I did not change, I would be in the same place again in another relationship
3. I realized a trend in my relationships throughout time. I looked at the data honestly, not with blinders.
3. stop blaming my spouse for all my issues (taking responsibility for how I react in situations)
My life has begun to turn around in less than 6 months time. People treat me different and my wife has a strong desire for me again. I've noticed that more women are attracted to me. I'm becoming healthy emotionally and physically. My wife wants to give me sex now and not only that but good sex. She is having to change because she realizes that there is a real possibility that she could loose me.
If I decide in the future to leave my marriage, it'll be with no tears or mourning. I've grown past this stage and into acceptance. My SM has helped me to become a kinder and stronger man emotionally. I've become in touch with myself but no longer carried along by emotions.
You can stay in your SM but do something for yourself at the same time. Begin the hard work of change and growth. That way when you decide to leave you do it with great strength not in weakness and sorrow.
If you want a quality relationship, then you have to be healthy emotionally. Likes attract and we're in the SM mess due to a lot of our own issues.
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jpn
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Brrrrrrrrr...
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Age Range: 46-50
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Post by jpn on Mar 12, 2017 11:14:57 GMT -5
Congrats on taking this all head on and making changes for the better. It all makes sense, and it's great to see it laid out in a positive way. I know the physical health issue is a big one for me, and tough to stay on point with it. I already had 3 excuses lined up for why I really, really, really shouldn't workout today. You have reminded me of the core reason to "get it done". Thanks!!! ... heading down for my workout now. No better time than the present!  |
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Post by dinnaken on Mar 12, 2017 11:28:05 GMT -5
Hi Heraclitus,
Thanks for this, well put
I've put a lot of work into the emotional side, looking at how I might do things differently next time.
The physical side of this has taken a real toll on my health, especially the last two years - as things have come to a head and you're right, it's a really positive change you can make.
Thanks again
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Post by GeekGoddess on Mar 12, 2017 14:26:53 GMT -5
I agree that the SM is not a negative-only situation. It is enlightening as well. It opened my eyes to see my part in how it developed and the faulty thinking & bad habits that I allowed to grow.
From: It's all me.
To: It's all him.
Now: It was both of us.
At first the rejection is so crippling. My self-esteem has been messed up so many times in my life, and I fell back into that comfortable misery pretty easily. I thought it was all me - I wasn't good enough for my H to want to fuck me.
My thoughts centered more on: I don't want to micromanage and tell him every little thing "he should do to make me happy" - we had been together about 2 decades, and "he should know" what makes me happy. I didn't want to be a nagger.
This thinking led me to not share my hurt though. To "hide" my feelings about rejection, about not being cherished or valued as a peer, and equal partner. And yet my P/A side would lash out at times and make things worse - quicken the pace of the power struggle moves for "who is the smart one now" medals.
I eventually got to thinking it was all him. HE is broken because he doesn't want sex or care about my satisfaction. HE is an ass because he let even the faintest trace of affection be buried under ego. HE doesn't know how to love. I have to get out.
I got out. I never felt more alone than the first 3 months in my apartment, isolated & drowning sorrows, regrets, and fears in tequila and beers. Luckily, I hit bottom without killing anyone (drunk driving) or myself. I got sober. As part of the 12-step program I used to get sober - we examine our character defects and shortcomings, making an honest inventory of ourselves and sharing that (with our sponsor - not in the group setting).
This helped me see innate value and positives in me I had not seen. It also made glaringly clear that I was acting very immature at different times all throughout my 25 years with my Ex. No one is perfect. The process helped me be okay with not being perfect - without being too scathing on myself (as my old habits would have had me do).
SM is a great teacher - it's a bitch of a thing, but if viewed from a safe distance, a great teacher. I could not have gone through the process of loving detachment while staying inside my SM. The emotional damage & rescarring was too much in my situation. But getting out of it and then getting a new attitude and outlook on life, I have been able to reap some very valuable lessons and percepts from the SM years. This part of the learning will help very much to avoid repeating the pattern in my next relationship.
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Post by baza on Mar 12, 2017 18:17:49 GMT -5
"You learn a fucking lot more out of a loss than you ever learn out of a win" - so sayeth one of my old football coaches.
And I think that is pretty right.
And I think that is a valid position to apply to other things in ones life that have not gone so great.
The opportunity to learn an absolute heap about yourself, relationships and human nature is provided by being in an ILIASM shithole.
Pick up the opportunity, or don't.
That's your choice.
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Post by darktippedrose on Mar 12, 2017 19:29:33 GMT -5
So very true. I find I have learned a lot. My relatives say that I have learned a lot from sexless marriage and the sexless marriage forums that I've been on.
I think its made me more independent and a better person.
But what everyone learns from it might be different, depending on your situation
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Post by brian on Mar 12, 2017 21:03:15 GMT -5
Spot on. I caught myself a few months ago going down the "woe is me" path before I realized where I was heading. I'm now back on a much better path and have learned a whole lot about myself. I can't say that my wife has any more desire to have sex with me, but it doesn't really matter at this point. My happiness is mine to find, and I will find it with or without her. The "taking care of my body" is going to take a lot more work, but I know I can get back to where I want to be.
So thank you for your post, most inspiring.
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Post by lyn on Mar 13, 2017 2:25:36 GMT -5
For most of my life, my identity has been based on superficial things. Pretty much, what others thought of me; my reputation professionally, the successes of my children - my family, how I looked, who I knew, etc.
Being in a long term sm, as you know, is not only exhausting, but, demoralizing.
As I grow older, and now in the "sunset" of this marriage, I've become weary of keeping up this facade. Moreover, of keeping up ANY facade. True Introspection has been, for me, the second to the last stage of my sm. Had I not experienced the many stages preceding, I wouldn't have arrived where I am today.
I am me.. Authentically so. Still working out a few kinks before I exit in a couple of months (the last stage) but, me nonetheless. Never again will I concern myself with appearing to be "something" or "someone" in particular. I'm okay with the way that I am today - far from perfect.
Had my marriage ended up "great"..... sure I'd probably be "happy" (maybe), but, I'd still be pretty shallow (positively).
No regrets.
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Post by Dan on Mar 14, 2017 22:44:21 GMT -5
It seems so easy to look at SM in a negative light. I would like to challenge others to see it as a push for growth and personal development. There is a concept in my faith tradition that we should embrace the "tests" in our life: is is the challenges that make us grow. I think this was touched on by lyn and other responses in this thread so far. Many of you know I like analogies, and I especially like analogies from nature. Here are two that seem apt for this discussion: Consider a tree: how do you measure its age... its growth? You can count the rings. Well... what ARE the rings? The light part of the heartwood is when the tree grew quickly in the summer when sun and rain were plentiful. The dark bands correspond to winter. That is when the tree is really tested: cold, dry, less sun. Yet it is those "marks" that indicate that growth really happened. Consider the oyster: it naturally makes a shiny substance that it coats the inside of its shell; this provides a more hospitable place to live. But what if a grain of sand gets stuck in the oyster shell? Well, it starts to deal with this annoyance the best it can, by also coating it with the same shiny substance. Give this a few seasons, and what does this speck, this annoyance, this test become? It becomes a pearl. Good things from from tests: growth! |
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Post by lyn on Mar 14, 2017 23:49:09 GMT -5
It seems so easy to look at SM in a negative light. I would like to challenge others to see it as a push for growth and personal development. There is a concept in my faith tradition that we should embrace the "tests" in our life: is is the challenges that make us grow. I think this was touched on by lyn and other responses in this thread so far. Many of you know I like analogies, and I especially like analogies from nature. Here are two that seem apt for this discussion: Consider a tree: how do you measure its age... its growth? You can count the rings. Well... what ARE the rings? The light part of the heartwood is when the tree grew quickly in the summer when sun and rain were plentiful. The dark bands correspond to winter. That is when the tree is really tested: cold, dry, less sun. Yet it is those "marks" that indicate that growth really happened. Consider the oyster: it naturally makes a shiny substance that it coats the inside of its shell; this provides a more hospitable place to live. But what if a grain of sand gets stuck in the oyster shell? Well, it starts to deal with this annoyance the best it can, by also coating it with the same shiny substance. Give this a few seasons, and what does this speck, this annoyance, this test become? It becomes a pearl. Good things from from tests: growth! Really beautifully said Dan- |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 10:49:12 GMT -5
I'm glad that my post has been helpful. I find it much more useful to do something than continue on in the same old rut. I value life and want to experience it fully.
One of the big surprises for me is my level of acceptance. When my wife gets moody, I don't take on her emotions. I've begun to live my own life again, not one enmeshed in the feelings of my marriage. My happiness is no longer dependent upon my wife. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy getting laid and having good sex. The unhealthy emotionally attachment is gone. There's no more sadness, anger, or grief over my relationship. I realized that you can not make someone love you. If they don't love you, then you should not take it so badly. It's their decision not yours.
At the risk of this sounding bad, I don't need my wife anymore. Before my wife felt like a lifeline in a sea of worries. Now, I'm just free and can stand on my own.
At the same time, I can be much more helpful to her. Without my dependency on her, she has to change. My strength has put a void in her life. Now she has to face her own problems.
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Post by snowman12345 on Mar 16, 2017 19:50:31 GMT -5
About 4 years ago I was spiraling downward, feeling real depression and maybe I had a few thoughts of ending things permanently. But, I am not built that way - I have been on my own since I was 18 and I have always taken care of myself.
I found this wonderful woman and we have been having awesome sex ever since. I have explored avenues of my sexuality that were beyond my wildest fantasies. I figured if I was in for a penny, I may as well be in for a pound.
I have found so much positive energy - it changed me. I am much more confident. I don't always win, but will put up a pretty good fight.
I found the ILIASM forum on EP and suddenly knew that there was people that could understand how I feel. No one has the same picture, but we all use the same canvas.
So, after finding an AP and finding EP I had "The Talk" with my wife.
After a few false starts from her, she began to fight for our relationship. The sex sucks. But the fact that she was willing to do something for me that she hated spoke volumes to me. I have found that expecting one person to fulfill all of your needs is pretty ridiculous.
I reflected on our history of 30 some years - life's ups and downs. A couple of near death experiences. Raising two kids, our life in the military. Her job, my job. I realized that she has always had my back.
She told me she was not going anywhere, and I guess neither am I.
It's not perfect, but it is what it is.
I hope there is something positive in all this.
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Post by itsjustus on Apr 6, 2017 14:00:03 GMT -5
Itsjustus, Full MemberDec 22, 2016 at 12:18pmI just saw a quote that describes what I believe relationships should be, including the one I'm in now. It also reminded me of my attempt to salvage, and ultimately leave, my marriage. I thought it worth sharing for those who are where I was.... "The greatest gift you can give to somebody is your own personal development."
I used to say, 'If you will take care of me, I will take care of you.'
Now I say, 'I will take care of me for you, if you will take care of you for me.' "
The quote hits directly on how...IMHO...it's up to me to make myself lovable and giving in a relationship. To do what I need to do to grow as a person, a man, and a partner. That also means that I should be aware of my partners needs, desires, and growth, to help maintain the relationship. In fact, for me, having a partner who strives to grow is a requirement. It's a deal breaker if they won't/can't.
Because it has a flip side to it as well. I think the majority of us are here because while our partner knows of our needs, and their lack of fulfilling them, they have no interest in improving...or changing themselves to maintain the relationship. Even though they vowed to us they would. That's what I found in my marriage. An unwillingness to grow, to self-examine, to look at the relationship and see what she could do to make it grow. To make it work. To meet my needs as I tried to meet hers. When I found EP/ILIASM, I had "The Talk". We decided to try. I shared a lot of what I found on EP with her. I shared everything I found elsewhere on troubled marriages, sexless marriages, marriage counseling, individual counseling.... I examined my thoughts and feelings on love, marriage, relationships, commitments. I went to individual counseling to prepare for marriage counseling..... All to help US make US work.
I was the only one that did.
She thought it worthless and a waste of time.
So.....I took care of me...for me. I left.
Heraclitus Dec 24, 2016 at 5:08pm My marriage did not change until I changed. It was when I begin to take care of myself and learn to have respect for my personhood that my life begin to change. My wife saw the change in me and begin to change herself. It's been a couple of months and she is coming along. Although, it's a much slower pace than myself.... I would like to challenge others to see it as a push for growth and personal development.
Very well put @heraclitus ! Growth and personal development. Taking the lesson's of a SM and looking at what you can do to change yourself, only yourself. The truism that you cant change others, only yourself. But you have to have the expectation that the other does the same, otherwise, you end up being the only one fighting for the relationship. Today, I am trying to help a friend as she reconsider's leaving her marriage, even though the divorce has been filed. That made me go back and look at a thread I posted about my marriage, (see above) and look at Heraclitus reply and now his thread about personal growth and change. Her STBX, after trying to "reset" and gaslight her when she first told him she was leaving, now is not only resigned to it, but is much happier. Much more relaxed. The pressure's off (?). It's a done deal. They are enjoying being around each other. Like they used to be. That's made her second guess leaving (though continuing with the actual "paperwork divorce") She's thought about this a lot. She's thought about their relationship for years. They've done marriage counseling. She's talked to him. She's attempted to make changes to herself...she's become very emotionally intelligent. Has he?
Then, a hitch.... After spending a week or so examining her emotions and watching him, she told him yesterday that she was reconsidering. They had a very long discussion, including her listing all the things she wanted out of a relationship, all the things she needed. Feeling cherished, loved, respected. Feeling that he was involved with her, wanted her. All the things she's told him before, in and out of marriage counseling. All the things we all want. And he agreed! (ps. she's the refuser, long story, their concept of sex...differed) He committed to changing! (again...) He said they need to communicate more. (a very true statement. She suck's at it as well...) Now the pressure of being "married" is off. Afterwards, they were happy! She was happy! A big day!! He had to go to work, but..it was a big deal. She was looking forward to re-connecting with him that evening. Maybe even having sex with him (if he would keep his promise about their "differences"). A little anxious about it, but mostly about having an evening of being close, intimate, cuddling in bed, whispering quietly about their new commitment. It was a BIG DAY after all, right?
And.... he didn't come home after work. He went to his mother's to visit, a regular thing, but..... In fact, he didn't come home until late, well after she'd gone to bed. WTF? She texted me this morning, said she was confused by it. A little hurt by it. Wondered why he didn't think it was a BIG DAY like she did?
He knows his marriage is on the line. Hell, the paper works filed! Here's his shot, his opportunity. To put her first. To make her feel special, wanted, adored, cherished......and safe. To trust him, with her heart and soul. He went to his moms.
He isn't changing? He isn't growing? Or, is the real question can he? Is he just so new to the concepts that he needs time, handholding to learn? Should she? Is she just being sensitive? A little PSTD from the past? Is it too much to expect, too soon? Like @heraclitus said, after his wife realized that with the real possibility of loosing him, she knows she has to work on herself. He's working on himself. It's working. But that takes time. Should my friend give him time? Help him? After other promises in the past?
What I told her was....why are you telling me this? First? What did you say to him this morning? (nothing) I told her that they committed to change themselves, the first change being open and honest communication. Well....tell him how you feel. How you felt last night when he didn't come home...on this BIG deal day. That's not handholding, that's being open and honest about your emotions. He can either openly and honestly say he's sorry, it's just so new to him, and he will do/prove better....or say she's being too sensitive and is asking too much. And he won't change. Either way, there's her answers.
I'm not sure how their deal will shake out. I'm not sure if it should or shouldn't. I want my friend to be happy, either way. What I am sure of is once again, I see that a person's ability to communicate what their feelings are, openly and honestly, and the other's willingness to listen, then do something about it...change....is what a relationship must have to be successful.
Mine couldn't. I left. I'm continuing working on myself. It's working wonderfully in my new relationship. Herclitis is on the path of finding out if his can while he works on himself. Looks very promising. We are both working on ourselves, for our own sake. We're both much happier. Change. Growth. It's a positive thing.....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 23:09:51 GMT -5
itsjustus,
You're are correct about the other person taking responsibility for their part in the marriage. The hardest part is letting go of that person and letting them make that decision on their own. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me. I don't want to force anyone.
I've created a healthy distance in my relationship now. I've become more independent in the relationship. I can start evaluating my relationship without emotions getting in the way. Before it was such raw emotion that I felt toward my wife. I thought that I needed the sexual relationship with my wife to be happy in marriage. Like many others here the problem went way past sex. The problem of my marriage at this current time is intimacy.
My wife takes care of my needs and offers me sex on a regular basis.. She has made some life changes. I've explained to her in the past what I want from a marriage. I'm not going to tell her anymore. The next step is she willing to do it.
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