A taste of my own medicine...

I have come to think that as long as someone is merely talking to a partner about the dysfunction in a relationship, then one is showing that a periodic unpleasant discussion is the maximum consequence.

I had a bit of an interesting experience this past week. I had a bit of a taste of my own medicine. I swear all of this has a point that may be helpful for us in ILIASM, so please bear with me as I give a bit of background.... I'll try to keep it short and to the point...

I had a friend of mine hit me with something that had been bothering him for years. He felt as though I had wronged him. It was an old argument and he brought it up in an attempt to bury the hatchet. I'm not sure why he chose to approach the subject in the manner that he did if his intent was to bury the hatchet because it was filled to the brim with criticism towards me. It had the vibe of being a pity party for him. It was a list of many of his hardships throughout the whole ordeal and also a list of all the things that I had done to fall short of helping him through these hardships. He was portraying himself as a helpless victim in this story. I felt terribly guilty. He told me that I had let him down and that he couldn't trust me in the future. I felt pressure to not let him down the next time. So, I started to tell him that he could count on me next time and that I would promise not to let him down .... and then I snapped out it. I sat there and said "HEY! Wait a minute! He's emotionally manipulating me!". I realized that in an attempt to seek peace with him that I was giving away my own voice and swallowing a lot of poison. I was trying my best to take the high road and not get angry, but for weeks I sat on the latest round of his emotional manipulation trying to keep my rage from boiling over. That was when I woke up and totally lost it. I basically told him that I will not feel guilty for his decisions and their natural consequences and I told him not to expect my help again next time. Kind of crappy of me, I know. Thing is, his emotional manipulating ways of trying to get my help next time backfired on him. I couldn't help but want to do less next time. After I blew up, I apologized and sent a more appropriate reply basically pointing out how I felt from his words and how I wouldn't allow him to use guilt to manipulate me and that if he wanted my help that he ought to try a different approach because guilt was just causing me to either dig my heels in to the extreme or to comply to his request but with deep resentment.

So, how is this a taste of my own medicine? Well, lets just say that when I first brought my SM up to my wife, I felt very much like a victim and I believe that I may have inadvertently let that vibe seep out into the way I approached my wife. My wife felt terribly guilty when I approached her about my dissatisfaction with the marriage. I wasn't purposefully doing things to emotionally manipulate her, but I believe she felt emotionally manipulated none-the-less. So I think her feelings were certainly valid. I think some of the guilt was self inflicted by her but also some was inadvertently being flared up by my words and actions towards her. So, I believe my story with my wife is quite similar to that of my friend that I shared above, except my role in the matter was reversed. Thing is, I am not a victim in my story either. It took me a loooooong time to accept that, but once I did, my world changed. I never was never a victim of my wife. I have always had choices. I can't really be all that mad at her. I never really asked her to do anything about the SM. I accepted it. I waited for her to "come around on her own" and she never did. That was my choice. I could have divorced her after year 1. I did not make that choice. I could have asked to talk to her at the honeymoon to see why she seemed to have turned so cold towards me ever since I said "I do". I didn't make that choice either. I could have asked her why she seemed to have no interest in sex anymore sometime around year 1 or 2 or 3 ...or somewhere long before I completely and utterly lost it with her on that fateful night we had our first "the talk". It's not my wife's fault I lost it. It's mine. It's not my wife's fault I was so angry with her. It was mine. I didn't take care of myself all of those years. I sacrificed and made myself a martyr. I didn't ask for what I needed. I chose to neglect myself. Then I turned around and blamed her. That's not very cool of me. I somehow felt wronged and victimized and I had no business doing so. My wife picked up on that victim vibe and (surprise surprise) she dug in her heels and refused to do anything about my complaints. Just like I chose to do with my friend. No one wants to do things because they feel somehow manipulated into doing it.

Luckily, I didn't continue down the road of stirring up guilt for her. It didn't take long for me to realize that she didn't have any intention of meeting my needs. So, I decided that I wanted a divorce. I told her directly what I expected out of marriage. I told her my line in the sand. I told her the consequences of crossing that line in the sand. Most importantly, I told her that it wasn't an empty threat or a form of manipulation, it was a natural consequence of neglecting your partner's needs that they are directly asking for. It took more than just that though. I had to show her I wasn't bluffing. So that's what I did. I wasn't bluffing. I was serious and I showed her that. Then after a while, she woke up. She realized that she was seriously about to lose me, and she changed. I thought it was a reset. That was almost 2 years ago. Things aren't perfect but they are still going down a steady path of "good enough". She knows the consequences of crossing my line. She knows it's not an empty threat. She knows it's not a tactic to manipulate (that's the important part). I had to express to her that it was just the natural consequences to expect from neglecting her partner. That is key. I had to make sure that a threat of divorce was not seen as a bluff, a manipulation tool, or something that THEY are a victim of. It is just a natural consequence, plain and simple. Not many people will choose to stay married forever if they're needs are simply ignored. I did all of this in an effective manner unknowingly. I didn't think of a plan before I delivered everything that I just laid out above. I just had had enough and I was telling her that I was done. Lucky for me, I somehow stumbled onto a way of approaching this that turned out to be effective. Had I kept going down the road of guilt and victim mindset, she may have never turned around. She may have rather been divorced than feel as though she was complying with some sort of emotional manipulation (intentional or not).

Anyway, it took me a long time to break free of the victim mind set. Ironically, once I fully accepted that I wasn't a victim, a lot of my anger left and I felt a lot better all around. Once I stopped allowing myself to feel as though I was a helpless victim, I started to blame myself ...and ...well, it hurt like hell to do that, but once I got through all the hurt that came along with realizing that I was my own worst enemy, I saw the clouds part and the sunshine break through in a long time. It was liberating. There's a "glass half full" aspect of coming to terms with the fact that you are part of the problem. If you are part of the problem, it means that you have the power to change things that aren't going your way. You can make any choice you want. You don't have to stay married. You don't have to get divorced. You don't have to cheat. You also don't have to sit there and take it. It's a "pick your poison" situation of the worst possible kind, but picking your poison is a still a choice. That may not give much comfort perhaps, but the longer I live the more I realize that LIFE is all about picking your poison. Very few of us get to have it all. Most of us have to pick and choose. Some of us here on this board have to decide if we want an intact family or if we want to find a partner that may be more into us or into sex and affection. Either choice is valid and either choice has pros and cons. Once the choice has been made though, I've found that it's of utmost importance to realize that I have chosen and that I am NOT a victim. It's important that my wife know the same. She has choices and natural consequences of choices. She isn't a victim either.

I suppose the bottom line of all of this that I wanted to point out is this.... I wonder if some of us are not getting results because we are putting out a vibe that is causing our spouses to dig their heels in. I certainly feel as though that was part of my problem when this all first went down. Approaching this with your spouse is such a tightwire walk. It's hard to get them to want to do something for you out of their own desire. We want to influence them, but there is such a fine line between the words "influence" and "manipulate". If they feel manipulated, it will most likely backfire. On the other hand, if we sit around and do nothing, then nothing happens. So, it's so very hard to find that perfect balance. For me, what seems to have worked is to just be direct. Tell them what you expect in a direct manner, tell them the natural consequences of neglecting your partner's need, make sure they understand that you aren't attempting to manipulate them, make sure you aren't bluffing, and make sure that you don't let yourself play the victim. It's a tall order, I know. I'm still trying to figure out how to make all of this stuff happen in other aspects of my life, but I'm light years from where I was 2 years ago. I still fall into "victim mode" from time to time and fall into other bad habits here and there. I'm finding my way though. I couldn't be where I am without the help of everyone on this board and the old EP board. A lot of my change from a victim mind set came from the influence of many good people here. So I just want everyone to know that their words here are appreciated and that they are making a difference for people's lives.

So much for "short and to the point", huh? lol.

TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo

Feeling a victim and so much anger and resentment were big emotions with the way I felt the second half of my marriage and those feelings grew year by year.

Now that I am out of my marriage I see where I was an enabler, passive, and I should have advocated for myself more.

Earlier in my marriage I should have:

Threatened him with divorce
Been more aggressive
Made him go to counseling sooner
A lot of things

You are not at the shithole stage by the time I found the forum it was too late.
When she said so leave and you said "no" - wrong answer!

In my opinion which means absolutely nothing just the perspective of now looking from the outside in:

You should have said, "that day will come if things don't change so don't act surprised or angry one day when you are served with divorce papers because you are officially warned. Do what you want with this information.
I love you and I want to show that love with sex and I need you to do the same consistently and enthusiastically and if you won't then one day someone else will. I didn't get married to live like a monk. Again consider yourself warned and balls in your court".

My other point of view now looking from the outside in and I'm divorced and single:

I'm not having sex with anyone that isn't enthusiastic about having sex with me and makes me feel wanted and desired. I will never beg for sex again it's just too easy to come by.

This was all said with much respect I hope it didn't sound harsh

TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo , I agree 100% with bballgirl . When your wife threatened to leave, the worst answer you could have given her is "no". That is total abdication to her terms and conditions of the marriage. Some form of emphatic "yes!" *might* have shaken things up enough to change her thinking. In reality, though, there is a catch-22 when threatening to leave. It is inordinately difficult to get a spouse to take you seriously... without actually leaving. But then no one ever said this was easy or the chance of success is high. But for sure, the only chance of success is a very different answer. I should have figured this out on my honeymoon.

While an "Okay, I'm gone" might be emotionally satisfying, I think I find myself leaning toward responding, "In due time, madam; in due time." My thinking is that if you aren't ready to pull the ripcord, you are at least saying that it is a possibility. No positive feedback ("oh, honey, I'd never think of leaving you"), and a shifting of the sands under her feet; the ground has become a little unsteady.

I will admit to liking certain phrases. Perhaps a "Patience! After all, Rome wasn't built in a day" might do as well, again denying the refuser the abject grovel that s/he was seeking in order to right the pecking order. Either way, if you are seeing a lawyer, the 'threat' isn't necessarily empty, is it? But given Chatter Fox's post, it is possible that a full-throated threat could simply be superfluous.

As an example, she recently suggested I leave. (Another manipulation tactic, although rather underwhelming, since I dont believe she was being serious). I told her her no. Which is what I believe she wanted to hear (for reassurance), but the manner and forcefulness in which it was delivered caught her off guard. In truth, there are days where I think heavily about leaving, but Ive come to the realization that I will not be haste with that decision, nor pressured into it. Im owning it. See?