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Post by itsverycomplex on Jan 19, 2017 17:56:50 GMT -5
OK - I'm here.
This is a repost from the introductions thread.
It's been a long journey - I have been married to my lady for 27 years, and in a relationship with her for 30+.
When we met, she was so far out of my league it wasn't funny - confident, assertive, all the guys loved her, constantly moving and in an open relationship. She moved out of the open relationship to be with me (woot!!). The first couple of years were rocky, I would come home to condom wrappers on the bedside table, or to her sitting me down to have 'the talk' about the fact that she had shagged somebody else. I had my share of flings as well, but we chose to stay together. the first 10 or so years we calmed down and were focused on each other. In saying that on 30 years, she has initiated intimacy twice...
We had two children (both grown now [20 and 24]) and things in our relationship has slowly slid into a dark, danky cavern. The photo on the front page of the forum is us every night...
After my second daughter was born, she didn't touch me for 18 months, in that time I didn't touch anybody else. I was proud of that.
A couple of years ago, something snapped in me, and I actively looked outside our relationship to have my needs met - I hate myself because of it. One lady wanted me to leave my wife, so I tried, without success - we ended up on counselling, and everything was my fault. One thing that the counselling did, was that it highlighted to her that it was important for me to have sexual relief, so now, I have permission to use her leg, or hand to masturbate.
I can't tell you haw crappy that makes me feel... Some times, she says I can put my sperm inside her. I make sure that she climaxes as well, but it is mechanical... It is definitely not about intimacy, and is simply about having some soft flesh to slide against.
I have another lover, who loves me dearly, but there is something about me not wanting my wife to be alone, so I don't leave. I have spoken about the thought of having an open marriage so that I am not living a lie, and her biggest concern is that I will become conflicted and want to leave her.
This forum is probably the first place I have found that makes sense to me. From reading open marriage forums, I am clearly the scum of the earth, and should go die in a corner. At least here, you all have similar stories, and probably understand the complexities of my world.
I am buoyed by what I have been reading here these last few days -
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Post by baza on Jan 19, 2017 20:08:50 GMT -5
Appears like everything you've done has been by choice, not necessarily 'fully informed choice', but choice none the less.
And part of the outcome has you in a mindset where you are thinking shit like - "I hate myself " / "I am clearly the scum of the earth" and suchlike.
That might be the place to start.
By sorting that shit out.
See, there's no value in branding your choices "right" or "wrong".
Choices are choices. Nothing more and certainly nothing less. It is the outcomes of your choices that are either positive or negative.
It's far from clear what you actually want Brother itsverycomplex.
Do you know ?
What is it ?
Staying in an ILIASM shithole is a perfectly valid choice.
Just as valid a choice as leaving.
Cheating is just as valid.
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Post by unmatched on Jan 19, 2017 20:43:18 GMT -5
Did you ever ask her how she thinks she went from somebody who loved sex and was in a bunch of open relationships, to only every initiating twice in your marriage and being completely uninterested? And whether she would like the idea of having sex with somebody different after all this time?
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2017 1:51:13 GMT -5
there is something about me not wanting my wife to be alone, so I don't leave. It could be helpful to be specific about what "leaving" means. If you mean to separate, there are many forms that could take, which don't necessarily require your wife to be alone (if she doesn't want to). By example, my relationship with my children's mother is a bit like a close adult family member, which, frankly, she is - as my children's mother. I don't mean to sentimentalize her in calling her that, but rather to express that I see what she is as kind of a family role, just as when a new aunt marries into the family. I see her quite a bit. She attends family events with other immediate family and which are centered on the children, for now. This is something that we discussed and mapped out as within our tolerance levels and in the mutual interest of our children (but not without cost). Of course, it's reasonable to resist separating and leaving her alone because she might then arrange her life so as not to be alone, but in a way that excludes you, and brother, that is a harsh toke. But if she's already excluding you in a way that is critical to your definition what a marriage means, then what are you actually losing that isn't lost? Does your concept of marriage include the idea that it is a sexual union? Did hers? If the commitment to celibacy was written in your wedding vows, would either of you have agreed to marry on those terms? I get that you are married in a legal sense but if marriage is a sexual union, aside from your disappointed expectations, how is your present married relationship different than my own, with my ex-wife? I'm suggesting that the lie you are living is the marriage. Dropping a paramour onto that deal doesn't change the lie. With difficulty, you might find a paramour who is ok with your deal and you might get sex, love, and intimacy with her. But most open relationships begin with the concept of a primary relationship (your wife) and one or more paramours. You STILL will be in a situation in which your primary relationship feels inauthentic to you, with all the hurt and insult that entails. Your paramour relationships will have baked-in limits, honouring that priority. When presented with that same situation, I asked Mrs. Apocrypha (who had a boyfriend at the time) to help me understand what was gained by presenting our deal as a marriage, as opposed to being, say, amicable ex-spouses. In short, what was marriage bringing to the table? |
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Post by LITW on Jan 20, 2017 13:29:23 GMT -5
Yup, I totally get that. When it comes to anything about male-female relationships, its all complicated.
The number 1 reason my wife and I are still together is explained in your statement "...but there is something about me not wanting my wife to be alone, so I don't leave." Just short of three years ago, I met a woman on EP and the chemistry between us was instant. We were emailing and chatting constantly and had even planned on meeting in a hotel in the next state.
Before that could happen, my wife found out about it. I expected her to explode and immediately kick me out of the house, but her reaction was not like that at all. She all but begged me to stay, promising she would work on the things that prompted me to look outside the marriage. So I agreed, and her efforts did last a short time, but then things slipped back to the way they were before, except that now she was suspicious of everything I did and every female I talked to for any reason.
Living under that kind of scrutiny sucks!! But the haunting look of pain in her eyes made me step back and consider my own pain-the pain of rejection by her-as less significant than her pain caused by me looking outside our marriage for what she wouldn't give me. The fact that she wanted me to stay in spite of how hurt she was shows just how deeply she loves me. As a result, I have chosen to stay and "stuff" my pain. Stuffing your pain has only one of two outcomes: it will either kill your soul, or it will come out even stronger than before somewhere down the line. What will happen with me is still unwritten. I considered another affair, and although I would dearly love the attention one would provide me, I know I can't hide it from my wife because she is immediately suspicious of everything I do thats not a part of my routine.
If your spouse has hurt you badly enough that you truly don't care if they get hurt, the "right" answer (and the answer many here have taken) is to break it off with your non-sexual spouse and start over. If you do care though, its not that easy, and such is the curse of those of us who still care about our non-sexual spouse's wellbeing.
Wishing you clarity and peace of mind.
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Post by baza on Jan 22, 2017 1:05:12 GMT -5
Brother LITW.
Have you considered that there may be a quite different interpretation of this - "The fact that she wanted me to stay in spite of how hurt she was shows just how deeply she loves me".
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 22, 2017 1:41:22 GMT -5
^
THIS.
Back in the fog, I certainly thought I was the perfect man for Mrs Apocrypha. No other man on this planet would be able to handle the pain and still treat her with patience and increasing accommodation.
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Post by McRoomMate on Jan 22, 2017 3:02:45 GMT -5
itsverycomplex mentions "I have another lover, who loves me dearly" - OK but do you love the new lover dearly as well? Perhaps irrelevant - even if not can be a "rebound" relationship and frankly does not seem toxic compared to your current SM which I have to say sounds very toxic. Honestly, I would have been out a long time ago - to get permission to use her hand? WTF? Any how, my story is appalling too - SM for over 10 years - 10 years minimal to none - Sex, Intimacy, Cuddling, Kissing - Zero couple life - two room mates with children. In my current SM - yes I too it is officially according to my W - 100% my fault - she NEVER is responsible for anything - and neither of us ever initiate. I can totally empathize and relate and Welcome as they say the "Elephant Graveyard" of the worst Marriages.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 24, 2017 21:26:14 GMT -5
Yup, I totally get that. When it comes to anything about male-female relationships, its all complicated. The number 1 reason my wife and I are still together is explained in your statement "...but there is something about me not wanting my wife to be alone, so I don't leave." Just short of three years ago, I met a woman on EP and the chemistry between us was instant. We were emailing and chatting constantly and had even planned on meeting in a hotel in the next state. Before that could happen, my wife found out about it. I expected her to explode and immediately kick me out of the house, but her reaction was not like that at all. She all but begged me to stay, promising she would work on the things that prompted me to look outside the marriage. So I agreed, and her efforts did last a short time, but then things slipped back to the way they were before, except that now she was suspicious of everything I did and every female I talked to for any reason. Living under that kind of scrutiny sucks!! But the haunting look of pain in her eyes made me step back and consider my own pain-the pain of rejection by her-as less significant than her pain caused by me looking outside our marriage for what she wouldn't give me. The fact that she wanted me to stay in spite of how hurt she was shows just how deeply she loves me. As a result, I have chosen to stay and "stuff" my pain. Stuffing your pain has only one of two outcomes: it will either kill your soul, or it will come out even stronger than before somewhere down the line. What will happen with me is still unwritten. I considered another affair, and although I would dearly love the attention one would provide me, I know I can't hide it from my wife because she is immediately suspicious of everything I do thats not a part of my routine. If your spouse has hurt you badly enough that you truly don't care if they get hurt, the "right" answer (and the answer many here have taken) is to break it off with your non-sexual spouse and start over. If you do care though, its not that easy, and such is the curse of those of us who still care about our non-sexual spouse's wellbeing. Wishing you clarity and peace of mind. She agreed to work on her problem, in exchange for you staying. She reneged on her part, yet you stay in order to keep her in the comfort she is accustomed to. Some good negotiating there. Sorry if that sounds harsh. |
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Post by LITW on Jan 25, 2017 15:10:44 GMT -5
Yup, I totally get that. When it comes to anything about male-female relationships, its all complicated. The number 1 reason my wife and I are still together is explained in your statement "...but there is something about me not wanting my wife to be alone, so I don't leave." Just short of three years ago, I met a woman on EP and the chemistry between us was instant. We were emailing and chatting constantly and had even planned on meeting in a hotel in the next state. Before that could happen, my wife found out about it. I expected her to explode and immediately kick me out of the house, but her reaction was not like that at all. She all but begged me to stay, promising she would work on the things that prompted me to look outside the marriage. So I agreed, and her efforts did last a short time, but then things slipped back to the way they were before, except that now she was suspicious of everything I did and every female I talked to for any reason. Living under that kind of scrutiny sucks!! But the haunting look of pain in her eyes made me step back and consider my own pain-the pain of rejection by her-as less significant than her pain caused by me looking outside our marriage for what she wouldn't give me. The fact that she wanted me to stay in spite of how hurt she was shows just how deeply she loves me. As a result, I have chosen to stay and "stuff" my pain. Stuffing your pain has only one of two outcomes: it will either kill your soul, or it will come out even stronger than before somewhere down the line. What will happen with me is still unwritten. I considered another affair, and although I would dearly love the attention one would provide me, I know I can't hide it from my wife because she is immediately suspicious of everything I do thats not a part of my routine. If your spouse has hurt you badly enough that you truly don't care if they get hurt, the "right" answer (and the answer many here have taken) is to break it off with your non-sexual spouse and start over. If you do care though, its not that easy, and such is the curse of those of us who still care about our non-sexual spouse's wellbeing. Wishing you clarity and peace of mind. She agreed to work on her problem, in exchange for you staying. She reneged on her part, yet you stay in order to keep her in the comfort she is accustomed to. Some good negotiating there. Sorry if that sounds harsh. Whether or not it sounds harsh, its true: I am a terrible negotiator. I think I wrote before that this is my second sexless marriage. During the divorce proceedings from the first marriage, I lost my shirt... and my pants. I have a tendency to take what people say to me at face value, so those with ulterior motives have an easy time putting one over on me. Having now learned that lesson twice now, I am no longer willing to trust anyone completely. If my current marriage ends, I won't get married again. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 25, 2017 15:20:12 GMT -5
She agreed to work on her problem, in exchange for you staying. She reneged on her part, yet you stay in order to keep her in the comfort she is accustomed to. Some good negotiating there. Sorry if that sounds harsh. Whether or not it sounds harsh, its true: I am a terrible negotiator. I think I wrote before that this is my second sexless marriage. During the divorce proceedings from the first marriage, I lost my shirt... and my pants. I have a tendency to take what people say to me at face value, so those with ulterior motives have an easy time putting one over on me. Having now learned that lesson twice now, I am no longer willing to trust anyone completely. If my current marriage ends, I won't get married again. In your previous reply you said this: "the fact that she wanted me to stay in spite of how hurt she was shows just how deeply she loves me." My first thought: Was that love or emotional blackmail? I would never again marry either. The playing field is distinctly unlevel, in favor of a refuser. As long as society accepts the idea of enforced celibacy and even encourages it, I won't play the game again. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 15:48:17 GMT -5
A simple question your relationship started as open, she's obvious caught you in the past so why can't you have a conversation about having a open marriage again? I wouldn't be surprised if she not doing the same as you or is that what afraid of?
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