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Post by beachguy on Jan 14, 2017 19:49:02 GMT -5
Rather than playing a blame game that always ends in favor of the refuser, maybe this is a better approach: There is an expectation of satisfactory sex in a marriage. The lack of satisfactory sex is reason enough to end the marriage. My anecdotal experience, talking to many people who have divorced, is that in normal marriages, the marriages end when the sex stops. Celibacy is the final stage of the marriage, not the beginning or the middle. Most people I know go less than 6 months celibate before divorce is initiated. It is my suspicion that when two sexual individuals are in a marriage and things get so bad that the sex stops, both are pretty much ready to end the marriage because BOTH are equally unhappy about the celibacy. This is one reason that I do not believe that, in most cases here, there are two sexual people in the marriage. One party is perfectly content with the sexlessness and has no intention of changing, no matter what else changes. It is unfortunate though, that the nonsexual partner always plays the blame game to keep the train rolling as long as possible. And you have to admit, it's a very effective strategy. It kept tamara68 in her marriage for another 13 years. For me, another 30 (the entire marriage). |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 14, 2017 20:11:13 GMT -5
I think that blame has its' uses, initially helping you get to a point of righteous anger, which in turn might result in you doing something about your situation, but once that Rubicon has been crossed, blame ceases to have any relevance in the resolution process. This ^^^^^ is a personal opinion and as such is worth jack shit. If you are finding blaming to be useful, then that's great. Part of learning from your mistakes, so you don't repeat them. Here's an analogy, (and probably a bad one, but its all I can think of for now) Your a fish, you eat to survive. One time your meal had a hook in it. You took the bait. Fortunately you were thrown back in. A very life threatening experience. The next time you see such a meal you have learned to notice the shinny string attached to it. The one you didn't see the first time, and no one warned you about. Was the fish to blame for not noticing the string the first time? Who's to blame for what happened to the fish? not the fishes fault. This fish has changed it's diet! |
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Post by lakeside4003 on Jan 14, 2017 20:19:14 GMT -5
it's always reaffirming to have therapists (who have heard all of the details from both sides) acknowledge how poisonous a SM can be. It's not about assigning blame (all right, maybe a little bit), but (for me) was a release of tension that came from denial and the 'false equivalencies' arguments that my W kept trying to suggest made her a victim at least as much as I might be. To 'get validation' from 3 different marriage counselors was a great release for me knowing 'I am understood and agreed with' (by a sane person!), even if the spouse never will quite get it.
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Post by lakeside4003 on Jan 14, 2017 20:21:07 GMT -5
meant to add that since this is now fully outed - I have stopped any advances or attempts at initiating anything (and she suggested I sleep in a spare room), so yes, we are both avoiding now.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 14, 2017 20:34:02 GMT -5
Rather than playing a blame game that always ends in favor of the refuser, maybe this is a better approach: There is an expectation of satisfactory sex in a marriage. The lack of satisfactory sex is reason enough to end the marriage. It is unfortunate though, that the nonsexual partner always plays the blame game to keep the train rolling as long as possible. And you have to admit, it's a very effective strategy. It kept tamara68 in her marriage for another 13 years. For me, another 30 (the entire marriage). I am a big train fan so: This train that has been rolling along as long as possible is a slow moving empty local freight that is blocking the main line. Your the engineer, you have been following the same old signals for decades. You realize that every day the 210 express is arriving earlier and earlier. You decide to stop the train, reverse it and park it on the side rail, despite what the signals say. You just saved your life, and the lives of others, by letting the new train go rolling by, removing the old local by pushing it off to the side. |
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Post by lakeside4003 on Jan 16, 2017 10:43:08 GMT -5
so, this thread got me thinking a bit more...I'm not really sure if I'm refusing her under these circumstances.
(remember, it's my wife who 'avoids similar bedtimes', 99% of the time for 15+ yrs now). our typical pattern is: I ask her to join me up in bed when I head upstairs at night ('no thanks, I'm going to stay up awhile') or attempt a suggestive nuzzle in the morning when I awake (7am) - which is too early for her, as she sleeps from 2a-9a 9 ('leave me alone, I'm still sleeping').
The rare times we've had sex, it's always in the morning - mostly however, after I've already been up an hour or so, had my coffee, took out the trash, let the dog out, fed the cat, read the paper - and cleaned up last nights dishes.
on rare occasions, when she's feeling somewhat guilty about no sex in 3-4 months - having rebuffed me numerous times, she'll come downstairs, in her frumpy, old-lady pj's and ask me if I want to come back to bed? (not do you want to get naked?, or I'm feeling horny, or anything along those lines - just a straight out business proposition.) No kisses, nuzzling, sensuality - and certainly nothing sexy about it at all - just a 'check-off-the-box' offer.
about 2 years ago coming off of another 8-10mo drought - I told her that the wind had gone out of my sails for hoping, fantasizing, asking, dreaming, expecting that we'd have at least occasional sex. hey, I'm still full-out horny, but don't want to keep riding this spiraling downward train... So, not wanting to repeat the pattern of having usually bland/starfish re-set sex once or twice and then returning to zero for the next 3-4 months - I usually tell her 'thanks, but no thanks'. Sometimes I'll let her know that 'I already took matters into my own hand'.
Am I refusing?
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 16, 2017 13:09:44 GMT -5
so, this thread got me thinking a bit more...I'm not really sure if I'm refusing her under these circumstances. (remember, it's my wife who 'avoids similar bedtimes', 99% of the time for 15+ yrs now). our typical pattern is: I ask her to join me up in bed when I head upstairs at night ('no thanks, I'm going to stay up awhile') or attempt a suggestive nuzzle in the morning when I awake (7am) - which is too early for her, as she sleeps from 2a-9a 9 ('leave me alone, I'm still sleeping'). The rare times we've had sex, it's always in the morning - mostly however, after I've already been up an hour or so, had my coffee, took out the trash, let the dog out, fed the cat, read the paper - and cleaned up last nights dishes. on rare occasions, when she's feeling somewhat guilty about no sex in 3-4 months - having rebuffed me numerous times, she'll come downstairs, in her frumpy, old-lady pj's and ask me if I want to come back to bed? (not do you want to get naked?, or I'm feeling horny, or anything along those lines - just a straight out business proposition.) No kisses, nuzzling, sensuality - and certainly nothing sexy about it at all - just a 'check-off-the-box' offer. about 2 years ago coming off of another 8-10mo drought - I told her that the wind had gone out of my sails for hoping, fantasizing, asking, dreaming, expecting that we'd have at least occasional sex. hey, I'm still full-out horny, but don't want to keep riding this spiraling downward train... So, not wanting to repeat the pattern of having usually bland/starfish re-set sex once or twice and then returning to zero for the next 3-4 months - I usually tell her 'thanks, but no thanks'. Sometimes I'll let her know that 'I already took matters into my own hand'. Am I refusing? I think a better question might be "is your response rational," which personally I would answer "yes." |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 16, 2017 13:23:28 GMT -5
Your refusing! Refusing, mental abuse, humiliation, disrespect, being taken advantage of, manipulation, being lied to, self-centerness, putting on the false mask, continuing the re-set game, taking the bait, and being treated in a childish manner.
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Post by lakeside4003 on Jan 16, 2017 13:43:37 GMT -5
of course, if she ever came downstairs in a partly open bathrobe, naked underneath - and nuzzled my ear or whispered 'i feel horny, what do you say?' - I'd be jelly and submissive...
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Post by McRoomMate on Jan 16, 2017 15:30:17 GMT -5
so, this thread got me thinking a bit more...I'm not really sure if I'm refusing her under these circumstances. (remember, it's my wife who 'avoids similar bedtimes', 99% of the time for 15+ yrs now). our typical pattern is: I ask her to join me up in bed when I head upstairs at night ('no thanks, I'm going to stay up awhile') or attempt a suggestive nuzzle in the morning when I awake (7am) - which is too early for her, as she sleeps from 2a-9a 9 ('leave me alone, I'm still sleeping'). The rare times we've had sex, it's always in the morning - mostly however, after I've already been up an hour or so, had my coffee, took out the trash, let the dog out, fed the cat, read the paper - and cleaned up last nights dishes. on rare occasions, when she's feeling somewhat guilty about no sex in 3-4 months - having rebuffed me numerous times, she'll come downstairs, in her frumpy, old-lady pj's and ask me if I want to come back to bed? (not do you want to get naked?, or I'm feeling horny, or anything along those lines - just a straight out business proposition.) No kisses, nuzzling, sensuality - and certainly nothing sexy about it at all - just a 'check-off-the-box' offer. about 2 years ago coming off of another 8-10mo drought - I told her that the wind had gone out of my sails for hoping, fantasizing, asking, dreaming, expecting that we'd have at least occasional sex. hey, I'm still full-out horny, but don't want to keep riding this spiraling downward train... So, not wanting to repeat the pattern of having usually bland/starfish re-set sex once or twice and then returning to zero for the next 3-4 months - I usually tell her 'thanks, but no thanks'. Sometimes I'll let her know that 'I already took matters into my own hand'. Am I refusing? |
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Post by McRoomMate on Jan 16, 2017 15:32:54 GMT -5
lakeside4003 Man that just hurts to read. I have not even bothered though - now that I think about it - she complains about me - not in a loud agressive way - just in subtle ways. I have no desire to touch her any more - it has been years really. Full respect to your story and the actions you are taking. Right on. And NO F-----G WAY are you refusing - Maybe refusing to be humiliated and a beggar - Jeez - I cannot believe this is happening. Unbelievable - I think you have the collective full support of the entire community - you sure as hell have mine.
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