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Post by hopingforachange on Jan 16, 2017 19:51:59 GMT -5
I agree McRoomMateFrom what I am reading here, we don't have the manipulation, and baggage that many have here. I thinking we caught the relationship in time. Maybe that is the benefit of the internet. I was able to find other people with the same issue and was able to validate my feelings that a SM is not normal or healthy. I have been dealing with depression for almost 2 years now, and I could not figure out where it was coming from until I found everyone here. We were not completely at the sexless marriage stage but we in the way, we were down to 2-3 times a month. Before I would not describe the wife as enthusiast for sex before, maybe hospitable, but after we decided that 2 kids was enough, it felt like I was begging for scraps. Like she was giving me just enough to keep me begging. Almost, a sadistic Pavlov's dog experiment. We have been working at it now for 3 months and she has actually initiated, the last time she initiated must have been 7 years ago after a party when I was the DD and we were trying to conceive. I had to read Song of Solomon a few times to wrap my head around that imagery like that was in the Bible. While neither of us are consistent church goers, I have never hear song of Solomon discussed in the late highschool/college age Bible study.
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Post by baza on Jan 16, 2017 20:00:57 GMT -5
"If" you are going to have a crack at reconstructing your marriage, it is going to start with *you*. *You* will need to bring to the table the best possible version of yourself that you possibly can. If you have 'issues' then you had best get them sorted out. If you have bad attitudes to some things, you had best get them sorted out. If you are struggling with resentment, trashed self esteem etc, you need to get that sorted out. In short, if you are to have any chance of 180ing your ILASM shithole, *you* need to sort your own shit out first. And that, is one helluva task to take on. Very hard work, very challenging, very difficult, (and very very very rewarding) That's *your* job, and a very taxing job it is. Frustrating, confusing, hard and harsh. And intimidating. It is an enormous task to sort your own shit out. But, it IS a matter that is under your control. You can do plenty about it. And, there is no guarantee of success, as you may figure "this is all too hard" and give up. Pretty daunting eh ? But, if you achieve that, get *your* shit sorted out, you have upheld your end of the deal and brought forward the best possible version of *you* possible. You can do no more than that. You can present yourself as a functional person, a person with the capability of being a really good life partner, a person worth engaging. Now the other side of the coin. Your present spouse. Here is what you can do about them and their issues. *crickets chirp" "Fuck all" is the answer to that. Your present spouse, might see the example you are setting and choose to start sorting their shit out too (on the lines above) But that is something over which you have no control whatsoever. They might succeed. They might fail. They might not even try. But if you sort your shit out, you have succeeded. You've done your job. So you have a shot. If your spouse sorts their shit out too, then perhaps a total rebuild of a new relationship might be possible. Or, it may become abundantly clear to each of you that this is not a realistic option due to fundamental differences. Either way, you have succeeded. You have produced a functional person with the attributes to be a great life partner. That might have appeal to your present spouse - or not. But it will have appeal out in the real wider world. Sort your own shit out. That's where it all starts.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 22, 2017 21:38:14 GMT -5
[TL2 condensed version of baza's post... just for reference:] "If" you are going to have a crack at reconstructing your marriage, it is going to start with *you*. *** In short, if you are to have any chance of 180ing your ILASM shithole, *you* need to sort your own shit out first. *** Now the other side of the coin. Your present spouse. Here is what you can do about them and their issues. *crickets chirp" Your present spouse, might see the example you are setting and choose to start sorting their shit out too (on the lines above) But that is something over which you have no control whatsoever. *** Sort your own shit out. That's where it all starts. Baza - Well said. I had similar thoughts a few years ago. When I finally said to myself "I'm not going to take it anymore", that triggered a do or die year with the marriage and I focused on trying to focus on myself and being a better and healthier person. I figured that was the best move no matter what because if the marriage wasn't able to be saved then I'd be a better person / spouse / partner for someone else. One other thing I would mention is that the turnaround does not have to be "disjointed" with each spouse acting on their own to make himself/herself better. Each person *does* have to come to their own internal conclusion that they have to change (1) himself / herself as a person, and (2) some things within the marriage relationship. For us, however, my W / former refuser would *not* have reached those conclusions *without* marriage / couples counseling. A team approach did work. Marriage counseling was essential for my refuser / W to focus on making some changes herself because obviously what I was saying wasn't considered "reasonable" until the same words and ideas were validated / supported by the counselor. So bottom line: if *both* spouses go into couples counseling admitting that *each* of them will have to change some things in order to save the marriage, and then both are responsible and each of them makes their needed changes, that can and does work too. TL2
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 22, 2017 21:48:06 GMT -5
My experience with "successful" couples counselling led me to believe that with continental-scale effort and change, two people can claw their way back to being effective communicators of their dysfunction and, likely as not, enjoy each other's company in a mostly non-sexual way. In other words, you can claw your way up to zero and have as good a crack, maybe, as a total stranger.
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Post by baza on Jan 22, 2017 21:48:11 GMT -5
Yep. Leaving your spouse alone to sort their own shit out is one thing (and a guiding principle) but obviously if your spouse asks for help (from you or a therapist) you'd be crazy not to support that.
This "sorting your own shit out" most definitely can not be "to the exclusion of everything else". That would not be healthy or helpful.
And, as you note, a team approach can work. But truth be told, in this group, I do not see a real lot of "team players" among the refusive spouses. Your missus, and Brother heraclitus missus are the only two that readily come to mind.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 22, 2017 21:50:00 GMT -5
I agree McRoomMate From what I am reading here, we don't have the manipulation, and baggage that many have here. I thinking we caught the relationship in time. Maybe that is the benefit of the internet. I was able to find other people with the same issue and was able to validate my feelings that a SM is not normal or healthy. I have been dealing with depression for almost 2 years now, and I could not figure out where it was coming from until I found everyone here. We were not completely at the sexless marriage stage but we in the way, we were down to 2-3 times a month. Before I would not describe the wife as enthusiast for sex before, maybe hospitable, but after we decided that 2 kids was enough, it felt like I was begging for scraps. Like she was giving me just enough to keep me begging. Almost, a sadistic Pavlov's dog experiment. We have been working at it now for 3 months and she has actually initiated, the last time she initiated must have been 7 years ago after a party when I was the DD and we were trying to conceive. I had to read Song of Solomon a few times to wrap my head around that imagery like that was in the Bible. While neither of us are consistent church goers, I have never hear song of Solomon discussed in the late highschool/college age Bible study. Hopingforachange - Yes, it sounds like you did catch things in time. Your marriage never got to SM stage if you were still having sex 2-3 times a month. It's not as much as many of us would like but it's not dire straits either. Glad you took a stand early before it got to the true SM point. If you have been depressed for about 2 years without actually having been in a SM, then finding this site and reading some true SM stories I am sure gives you some perspective and empathy. Having a spouse that *initiates* makes such a huge difference, doesn't it? Toward the end our my SM I refused to beg. I did an experiment in 2012 to see what would happen if I never initiated all year / never asked my refuser to have sex. I'm sure you know what the result of that experiment was: no sex all year! (shock, surprise) When my SM turned around (worst point: having sex just once in 4 years just prior to the turn around), it was *so* important that my refuser be the one to initiate. Everyone "wants to be wanted". All the best, sounds like you are on a normal upswing. Thanks for sharing. TL2
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 23, 2017 9:07:00 GMT -5
My experience with "successful" couples counselling led me to believe that with continental-scale effort and change, two people can claw their way back to being effective communicators of their dysfunction, and likely as not enjoy each other's company in a mostly non-sexual way. In other words, you can claw your way up to zero and have as good a crack, maybe, as a total stranger. Yes, of course, but with all of the mental and emotional baggage that you both can pretend no longer matters. In my own deal, i am starting to wonder if this is even a good idea for either of us.
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Post by lwoetin on Feb 25, 2017 3:09:03 GMT -5
DryCreek Thanks, I hope it stays and is not a bait and switch. We have had a lot of taking lately and some important things have some out. The purity/ abstance push is an issue for her, and sex was viewed as something required for procreation. So for her to read Bible verses that ate saying sex outside of procreation is good, appears to be a game changer. Although, the hasn't been any change in the oral department even though Songs of Solomon allude they it is OK/ good between husband and wife. Solomon 2:3: Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. Solomon 4:16"Awake, O north wind, and come, wind of the south; make my garden breathe out fragrance. Let its spices be wafted abroad. May my beloved come into his garden and eat its choice fruits!" It's usually David's Psalms that get read in church. It would be fun to listen to Solomon's songs sometimes. If it promotes oral giving on her end, I will sing praises to Solomon. Thanks for pointing out THE wisdom of Solomon.
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 25, 2017 4:11:07 GMT -5
hopingforachange Your case seems to be the ONLY example of having a possibility to succeed. As has been highlighted the key is BOTH spouses are willing to change make the relationship work. I have a theory and maybe I am wrong - but my guess is BOTH of you are still very much in love with each other. I think the LOVE has to still be there. LOVE would be the fuel and the glue for the spouses to work for success. In most cases, I would suspect one or both spouses are no longer in love and replaced with "substitutes" like codependence, parenting, financial reasons . . . but not love. Is that the case for you hopingforachange can you honestly say you both are still in love with eachother, I would suspect yes?
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Post by hopingforachange on Feb 25, 2017 8:16:39 GMT -5
McRoomMate yes we are and both of us are willing to work. Which sounds like the biggest difference for us. I don't think we got to the offical sexless stage before all of my flags went up. I was also on the look out the sexless transition because her parents are in a sexless marriage. During one of our conversations she asked what age I think the sex would stop, I replied with, when I am in a pine box or in a jar. If the equipment stops working, modern medican has a cure.
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 25, 2017 12:06:21 GMT -5
McRoomMate yes we are and both of us are willing to work. Which sounds like the biggest difference for us. I don't think we got to the offical sexless stage before all of my flags went up. I was also on the look out the sexless transition because her parents are in a sexless marriage. During one of our conversations she asked what age I think the sex would stop, I replied with, when I am in a pine box or in a jar. If the equipment stops working, modern medican has a cure. Thank-you hopingforachange I think this is the FIRST PROOF of my theory that the couple needs to have these 2 essential conditions fulfilled or it is futile: 1. BOTH must still be in love 2. BOTH must be willing to work / sacrifice / efforts for the good of the couple I will venture to say the first condition about being IN LOVE is really the main thing. The other 99% or whatever, the spouses are not really in love - it is a million other reasons but NOT love, common examples: fear of being alone, they like being married, financial security, stay together for the children etc. This further proves the Ancient Rule that AMOR VINCIT OMNIA (Latin for "Love Conquers All"). Excellent to read of your good progress and glimmer of hope in a sea of misery on this Forum.
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Post by forestsoul on Nov 18, 2017 7:08:58 GMT -5
Haven't posted here in a while, but things have changed for my wife and I. Still no sex (...I'm still here...) but a huge revelation: child sexual abuse.
It has taken a lot of good communication and trust in each other to get to the point of putting resentment aside so she can heal in a safe environment, free from the pressure of sex.
It is NOT easy and continues to be a struggle, but progress is being made.
"Allies in Healing" has been an amazing resource for me to help me understand what is happening for her to withdraw like she does. Shameful feelings overwhelm her and we are working to reverse those feelings.
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Post by choosinghappy on Nov 18, 2017 7:50:43 GMT -5
forestsoul I am dealing with the same thing - trying to help my H “heal” from child sexual abuse. It is a hard thing to do and we are not making much progress yet, I’m glad to hear there HAS been some on your side. I am wishing you luck with your wife! (And thank you for the resource.)
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Post by M2G on Nov 18, 2017 8:34:48 GMT -5
I'm trying to do the same thing. Came in yesterday all set to have "The Talk" but as usual her presence melted me. Just can't bring myself to do it. I will take it as a message from the Goddess and persevere, at least for now.
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Post by wom360 on Nov 19, 2017 22:12:56 GMT -5
Haven't posted here in a while, but things have changed for my wife and I. Still no sex (...I'm still here...) but a huge revelation: child sexual abuse. It has taken a lot of good communication and trust in each other to get to the point of putting resentment aside so she can heal in a safe environment, free from the pressure of sex. It is NOT easy and continues to be a struggle, but progress is being made. "Allies in Healing" has been an amazing resource for me to help me understand what is happening for her to withdraw like she does. Shameful feelings overwhelm her and we are working to reverse those feelings. Unfortunately this revelation lowers your chance of success dramatically. I’ve never heard of a case of sexless with csa getting fixed.
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