Well...how did I get here?!

I so get where you are coming from, Dan. I fear both situations: getting into another SM, and/or finding out that *I* am completely broken because of living in my SM for so long.

Last summer I met up with an EP friend, and I did discover that the physical part is definitely not broken. Damaged and insecure, yes, but not broken. I haven't seen him since (we still communicate), and now I find myself with similar feeling I did when still married, feeling dead inside. Not because of the experience, but because of learned behavior over years of having to shut down my sexual feelings. I don't like it, but I understand it is a protective measure for me.

Opening up myself for emotional intimacy is scarier. What if I do and I get the same kind of relationship I had? Maybe this is why I am not feeling ready to date, or why I don't feel like any man would even want to approach me to even say hi/ask me on a date. Perhaps I am putting out negative vibes? I do try to present a happy self when I am out, and even say hi to men, but that is the extent of it. It feels so complicated and like it will never happen. So frustrating. argh.

I think that having a background is an ILIASM shithole is the best preparation possible to have a successful relationship in the future, if that opportunity comes up.
UNLESS of course, you have not learned the hard harsh and bitter lessons from your ILIASM shithole.
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The lessons available in real time in your ILIASM shithole have the potential to teach you absolutely heaps about human nature, and an absolute mountain about yourself. Genuine real time, real life, hands on tutorials
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However, I take the point that not everyone does learn out of adversity, and if that is the case in an ILIASM context, then the risk of falling for the same dumb old shit "next time" (if that comes up) is probably heightened.
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I truly think that once one gets out of an ILIASM shithole, one is best served to spend an appropriate (a personally variable timeframe) sorting ones own shit out, by oneself and for oneself.
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Again and again and again, stories / situations keep returning to this point. Whether you are in an ILIASM shithole, thinking of leaving an ILIASM shithole, or recently out of an ILIASM shithole.
Sort your own shit out. (if you are anything like me, you'll find that there is "plenty" to sort out, enough to keep you occupied for a long long time)
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You do that - and it is hard hard work - and the outcome(s) will look after themself

itsjustus - this gives me so much hope. I cried reading it. Thank you for this post.

Trust is such a difficult thing. I struggle with that as well. Knowing the physical part works, and knowing my feelings still work is reassuring. But I too fear the hurt of being rejected, used, finding yet another partner like the one I left. However, I also think that I've learned from my experience and will be able to see red flags sooner. I hope

Right now I am content and happy with who and where I am at this stage in my life. If I find someone to join me on my journey through life, that would be fantastic. I am not rushing into anything unless I feel it is right, and he deserves my trust and commitment to him. 

{{hugs}} to you 

So, I finally made it back! I don't get much alone time in the home office, as Boyfriend tends to spend most of the day there. I DO want to reply to all of your very excellent points and rejoin this conversation.

baza- The quality was, indeed, lacking from the very beginning. I think I probably overlooked it because his initial excitement and enthusiasm was overwhelming for someone coming out of a sexless marriage. Being wanted was a thrill, and intoxicating. I wouldn't say he's completely resistant to my suggestions, but seems nervous and suspicious of them, as if giving me what I ask for makes him subservient. I also think that he might be worried that he doesn't know how to give me what I'm asking for, and that he might not be good at it. He will not admit this, so I'm at a loss. I think a sex therapist would be awesome, but there aren't really any in my immediate area. I am seriously considering some kind of weekend sex workshop getaway. I have no idea if those things work. If this is as good as it gets, I'm not sure about sticking things out. Not because of the quality, but it would be because it means he doesn't care enough about my sexual experience to try to learn something new.

jim44444- In recent months I have begun to feel like I am doing exactly that, providing "experiences" for him, rather than engaging in intimacy with him. I've tried to explain this feeling to him, that I'm feeling disconnected because I feel like all he does is lead us where he wants things to go, and not where I'm indicating to him that I'd like things to go. That sex is supposed to be like a conversation with give and take, back and forth. He says it's not his preferred style, and doesn't know how to do it differently.

unmatched- My therapist says he's "narcissistically wounded." He gets extremely defensive when I tell him I'm not happy with something he's done or said. He feels like his character is being called into question, because he did something "wrong." He's totally unable to validate my feelings, because he's so completely wrapped up with his own feelings of shame. He's said that he doesn't want to tell me he's sorry because he thinks it means he's admitting guilt. So, I guess the answer is, growing and learning and changing for him is A PROBLEM, because change means that there is something WRONG with him the way he is now, and the person he is now got him here to this place he is in his life, and with me. (That's a real thing he said in session just a week or two ago)

DryCreek- I don't remember who first suggested the possibility of low testosterone, but it was well over a year ago. He is very anti drug use, and really doesn't even want to get checked. I've been after him to make an appointment for a checkup because we suspect his blood pressure is high, but he's been putting that off for about 6 months now. He is not active, and quite overweight, which I know can suppress testosterone as well. He's worried that taking a T supplement would change who he is somehow. He's always considered himself "different" from other men - less aggressive, more sensitive, etc., and it's a point of pride for him. He can't stand the idea of being just like "everyone else," so there is some ego there for sure. Anytime what he does (and what he says other women have liked), and what I like are at odds, there is a big ego issue. All he can hear is I'm telling him he's WRONG, instead of "hey, let me show you what really turns ME on." My god, I try so hard to make it sound sexy, and show him that I'm giving him the power to turn me on, and that I want HIM to do these things to me because I'm hot for HIM. Nope. Doesn't work. All he hears is "you're doing it wrong! you can't satisfy me with your current set of tricks!"

bballgirl- It's interesting. At first blush, it really does appear that he's just selfish, and I do think there is a little bit of that. He's a first born son, so he has some entitlement issues for sure (sorry, don't mean to alienate any FBS, but the psychology of birth order is quite interesting and so often accurate), but I do think it's more entitlement than selfishness. He loves to give, but he loves to give what HE wants to give, not what I want to receive, and that is an interesting distinction because it dovetails with his ego issues. He thinks he has superior powers of people perception. He thinks he should (and DOES) know what I want and what will make me happy all of the time. Always. If he's wrong, he's shattered, he's failed, and then comes the shame. I feel I must retract the "feeling ashamed of my libido" comment. I need to own that. The whole "no one can make you feel anything..." thing. I know better than that, but I'm learning, I slip, then I get stronger. What he does, and how he reacts to my advances, it hurts me, but I can own my sexuality. I can own my desire. A few months back I started telling him "you know, even if not one single person in the world found me desirable, I would still believe that I am. I would still believe that I'm deserving of someone else's desire." He didn't like that because he felt like I was calling him out, and maybe I was a teensy bit, but I needed to put that out there, to make sure he knew that how I felt about myself was independent of how he treated me. I have done the sexy text thing too and the sexy email, and straight up walking in the office and telling him I had some very specific things I needed him to do to me. All failed. For some reason, he seems to like to initiate when I am completely disinterested. Entirely. Anyone have experience with this? Like especially if I'm falling asleep or on the rare occasion that I'm a little angry with him, but he's not upset with me.

wewbwb- I don't really know if he wants to learn. He has made some changes, I will give him that. He has some very young notions about relationships and life that are being questioned and turned over in therapy, and I think it is very traumatic for him. He is pressing on, so I can only hope that this perseverance will continue and show up in other areas. We are going with #1 for now, and though I know I don't owe him anything, I feel like I owe it to him to give him as much time and support as I can. He's doing some hard things. I worry I'm asking too much of him at once. I am entitled to want I want, yes, but I'm not in this to mold a man to my specifications. I want him to do this for him, and not for me.

becca- My life scares the bejeezus out of me sometimes! I suppose I do hope this is a bit of a cautionary post. I did a lot of work in therapy before I started dating again. The way he presented himself to me seemed right on target with what I was/should be looking for. I was seriously knocked for a loop when things started to fall apart, but by that time, I was so in love with him, and I had seen what kind of man he COULD be, and IF ONLY he could be that again... I read something recently about the hormones that are at work during the initial stages of a relationship, and how they actually suppress your body's stress response. So situations that would normally bother you, make you nervous, or set off whatever neuroses you've got, basically don't phase you. It allows you to create an intimate emotional attachment very quickly, with none of your brain's usual bullshit defenses.

phinheasgage- He does have some aversion to intimacy as well. It's a family of origin pattern that he very much wants to change. There are some things that in hindsight might have been red flags, but it's hard to say. In another relationship, maybe the same things could have happened, and they wouldn't have been red flags at all, just misunderstandings or learning opportunities. Who knows?

GeekGoddess- Thank you for the resources! I have my own online favorites, but those two are new to me. I wish he saw me as a hot young ego boost! I try to boost his ego at every opportunity, but he does not appreciate it. He doesn't actually like it at all. It makes him uncomfortable.

Dan- I briefly had the same worry. In my early 20s I had a brush with low desire during an abusive relationship. I know now that it was a natural reaction to what was happening at the time, but it scared the hell out of me. I know that trauma can flip that switch inside me, so it's something I'm conscious of. But the point is that I AM conscious. No more head in the sand like in my 20s or in my marriage. When something feels a little wrong, I think "hey! something's not right!" I don't bury it. It's just so different now because I'M different. I think that was key. Getting out of my marriage was only the first step. Figuring out why I ended up there, so it wouldn't happen again was important too. The next relationship has to be different, so you have to be different. Once you're out- if you find your libido flagging and you don't like it, then you get to choose whether or not you want to try to do something about it. But now you get to choose, and there is power in the ability to make that choice for yourself. I want to put something else out there. Sexless marriages are SO common! It's not unlikely that you'll meet someone who has some of the same experiences. This can be a good or a bad thing, but don't be too afraid to expose your "quirks and bruises." Many people who are dating at this age and beyond have their own scars. If they don't, they probably aren't the ones you want to date! Be wary of the unblemished. It is my experience that people who have been through shit are far easier to get along with.

misssunnybunny- I did the same as you, just as I was separating from my ex husband. It was difficult and a bit awkward having sex again, for what seemed like the first time. It was the first time in 3.5 years for me. The sex was great, but I was very insecure, and emotionally I probably wasn't ready. Of course, I did it several more times, just to be sure! Things got easier fairly quickly. Really, it did! Dating was harder to figure out, because emotions are tricky. All I can say is - therapy! I really needed to figure out who I was, who I wanted to be, and where I was going before I could begin to determine what kind of person I wanted to accompany me on that journey. In the end, I think this relationship has done a better job of that.

baza ver.2- ditto. Couldn't agree more.

greatcoastal- Wise words, indeed.

itsjustus- Lovely post, and what an inspirational journey. I'd like to think that I have opened myself up fully in this relationship, and that I've made myself vulnerable to my core. I trusted and love him in a way that I haven't loved another before. I was burned too, because, as you say, he hasn't done the hard work to learn who he is and what he wants, but somehow I didn't see it. Our therapist has told him that his challenge is working on developing a sense of self outside of his partner and relationship. When asked if he is happy, he replies, he's happy if I am happy. When asked what he wants, he replies, he wants what will be good for, and make the family happy. He swallows his feelings because he doesn't want to cause more problems in the relationship, but doesn't recognize that if he's not talking about how he feels, and he's unhappy, the relationship suffers. He becomes bitter and lashes out in passive aggressive ways. He is learning and growing, but we are at different stages of development, and it is so, so difficult. What you describe in your relationship, is what we had in the beginning. It's hard to come to terms with the fact that we ended up in this place. I don't know if we can get back to the bliss we had before, but if it's possible, it will be a very long road I think.

Caris- I know I said this earlier, but I can't stress enough how important therapy is. I know there is a stigma attached for some people, but all I can say is, think of therapy as physical therapy for your emotional brain. You've been through something traumatic. If you broke your leg and needed to learn to walk again, you wouldn't do it on your own, would you? You'd have a trained professional help you every step of the way. It's important to find a good one though. There are some terrible therapists out there. Get referrals if you can. Try them out before you commit to a bunch of sessions. Pick someone you have a good rapport with. I love my therapist, she's like a good friend, but without the questionable advice, and she doesn't talk about herself.

petrushka- I'm only guessing at what you mean by "meant to be used for" but if it's working at all, I'm sure you're good to go! Of course, in my experience fear IS your enemy, so confidence is key.

Baza, you ask some good, and key questions. I suppose these are the same kinds of questions I've been asking myself lately. Two years of getting to know someone is more than enough to know a lot of things about a person, but not quite enough to know solid, reliable answers to those questions. I've seen him make movements towards small improvements of some really big, deep seated issues. I can't say if he will continue to improve in these areas, or even if he will maintain the changes he's made thus far. We simply don't have enough history. What I do know is, he is extremely resistant to change, especially when it threatens ideas, philosophies, or values that he's held for many years, and that he feels are crucial to the makeup of his character. Once something gets through, though, he seems to be able to assimilate the new ideas quickly. He's able to recognize and talk about the difficulty of reforming new habits and thought patterns, based on his new beliefs, which is a level of self awareness that doesn't carry over to other conversations.

I can't say how many years he is behind me, because I don't know how long it might take for him to get where I am now. I can only guess that it would take much longer, because as our therapist has noted, I tend to process things much faster than he does, and it is often a source of great tension for us.

I vacillate between feeling like it's time to end things, and wanting so badly for things to go back to the way they once were. I just want my lover back, my friend, my partner. I used to believe that if I put my heart out there, was truthful, genuine, vulnerable, and did everything I could to make my partner feel special, wanted, and loved, this would break down any barriers in the way. He wouldn't feel threatened, or intimidated, or worried, or inadequate, or fearful in any way, and he couldn't help but return my affection, without pretense or masks or conditions. I don't believe this anymore. I can only control me. I cannot make someone else be healthy or well-adjusted, no matter how honestly or openly I approach them. Sometimes when you approach someone with open arms, you get punched in the gut.