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Post by Caris on Oct 16, 2016 2:57:47 GMT -5
After 5-years of reading ILIASM, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to get and keep a man is for me to not want him. Yes, it's sounding a bit tricky.
It seems to me that men in ILIASM marriages bend over backwards to please their wives, and yet their wives still reject them, and treat them like sh*t. Okay, not all, but enough to be significant. The most amazing thing is, you still want your women, and pursue them.
On the other side of the coin are the women of ILIASM with the same deal, so it seems that if you are attracted to and actually want your partner, they don't want you (or not want you in the way you want them to want you), which leads me to believe that for a man to actually want me, be attracted to me, pursue me, and want to be with me, I must not be attracted to him, nor want him touching me. In fact, it must be a man I don't want. 🤔 Like I said, tricky.
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Post by baza on Oct 16, 2016 4:24:21 GMT -5
I'd argue that this is not gender specific personally Sister Caris.
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Seems to me that refused spouse (male or female) demonstrate a tendency to - " bend over backwards to please their spouses, and yet their spouses still reject them, and treat them like sh*t. Okay, not all, but enough to be significant"
And that refusers (male or female) - "don't want you (or not want you in the way you want them to want you)"
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However for all that, I reckon you are pretty lose to the mark.
I think the best of relationships are where the two people involved do NOT need to have the other one in their life to complete them as a person, but rather choose to have the other person in their life because they add value, mutually.
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Personally, I have no doubt that Ms enna does not need me in her life to complete her as a person. She is already quite a complete person. That she chooses to have me in her life I find very reaffirming.
For my own part, I reckon I could bumble along ok if Ms enna was not in my life. I don't feel I need her to fill some void in my life. But I am so glad that she is in my life, and is there by her own choice. And I love her like crazy.
It's like two individuals, but together by choice.
And the fact that she is an absolute cracker in bed doesn't hurt either !!
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So your observation - "I Need To Find A Guy I Don't Want" might more accurately be edited to read - "I Want To Find A Guy I Don't Need".
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Post by bballgirl on Oct 16, 2016 7:44:43 GMT -5
That philosophy only works with marriage, once you are married.
Tricky or tricking or Bait and Switch is the philosophy.
A lot of times men are unhappy but they have children together so they stay for the kids, the financial reasons, staying is cheaper than child support and/or alimony. If there were no kids the men would leave.
Sometimes it's just financial because the kids are gone. A change in lifestyle is a tough pill to swallow and to impose on someone else. We are kind we don't want to impose a lifestyle change on our spouse and they have to sell the house meanwhile they imposed a sexless lifestyle on us and they don't care.
Bottom line - No man you date would put up with refuser behavior.
Honestly none of us probably have it in us to be refuser assholes either.
We are all kind people. Go Us!!
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Post by baza on Oct 16, 2016 17:53:01 GMT -5
I think we are actually on the same page here Sister Fiery
But I think on reflection, I got a bit "wordy" (above post) and ended up producing a convoluted mess.
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I'll try again (below)
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I think that one has to be pretty comfortable in one's own skin as an individual BEFORE one enters in to a partnership with another person.
And further, that the other person has to be pretty comfortable in their own skin as an individual too.
Thus, the individual foundations are solid, so a merged dynamic has a great chance of success.
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Post by JonDoe on Oct 16, 2016 19:16:52 GMT -5
That philosophy only works with marriage, once you are married. Tricky or tricking or Bait and Switch is the philosophy. A lot of times men are unhappy but they have children together so they stay for the kids, the financial reasons, staying is cheaper than child support and/or alimony. If there were no kids the men would leave. Sometimes it's just financial because the kids are gone. A change in lifestyle is a tough pill to swallow and to impose on someone else. We are kind we don't want to impose a lifestyle change on our spouse and they have to sell the house meanwhile they imposed a sexless lifestyle on us and they don't care. Bottom line - No man you date would put up with refuser behavior. Honestly none of us probably have it in us to be refuser assholes either. We are all kind people. Go Us!! From a man's point of view, there is another aspect of divorce. You have to be prepared to lose some friends too. As a result of separation, you lose contact with many of your joint married friends. During and after the separation period, the females generally band together, whereas most of the married guys will create a separation buffer in order to avoid conflict at home, especially if there is any badmouthing on either side. And one vindictive voice in that group will spread like wildfire. I've seen it numerous times; although, I realize it is not universal. I'm curious to hear whether others experiences are different. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 16, 2016 19:27:39 GMT -5
That philosophy only works with marriage, once you are married. Tricky or tricking or Bait and Switch is the philosophy. A lot of times men are unhappy but they have children together so they stay for the kids, the financial reasons, staying is cheaper than child support and/or alimony. If there were no kids the men would leave. Sometimes it's just financial because the kids are gone. A change in lifestyle is a tough pill to swallow and to impose on someone else. We are kind we don't want to impose a lifestyle change on our spouse and they have to sell the house meanwhile they imposed a sexless lifestyle on us and they don't care. Bottom line - No man you date would put up with refuser behavior. Honestly none of us probably have it in us to be refuser assholes either. We are all kind people. Go Us!! From a man's point of view, there is another aspect of divorce. You have to be prepared to lose some friends too. As a result of separation, you lose contact with many of your joint married friends. During and after the separation period, the females generally band together, whereas most of the married guys will create a separation buffer in order to avoid conflict at home, especially if there is any badmouthing on either side. And one vindictive voice in that group will spread like wildfire. I've seen it numerous times; although, I realize it is not universal. I'm curious to hear whether others experiences are different. Much to say on that question. Especially in a church setting. I got hammered on here in the past for bringing up such a subject. Even though our class was meant to be a place to bring up problems so solutions could be formed. Probably better to start a new thread on that. |
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Post by baza on Oct 16, 2016 19:58:04 GMT -5
JonDoe.
I left my ILIASM deal in Oct 09.
I know (but only 2nd hand) that some of our mutual acquaintances "took sides" in the moment.
I know - first hand - that some family members "took sides" in the moment.
I also know - first hand - that my best mate and his missus both refused to "take sides" and just offered us (separately) support to get through the process, in the moment and on an ongoing basis.
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I doubt that any of the "acquaintances" spent any significant amount of time discussing our break up. It would have been measured in minutes I'd imagine, and then rarely thought of again. People tend to have their own problems to deal with and do not have the time to invest in thinking about others troubles indefinitely.
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Things were pretty frosty with my in laws initially.
My youngest kid was pretty pissed off with me.
My missus was very pissed off with me.
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Gradually the heat died down.
By the time 6 months had gone by my ex missus and I had formed a new relationship with each other based on the reality of the situation, and I was back on speaking terms with my in laws (bar one sister in law - who I had never got on with ever anyway)
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By the time 12 months had gone by I would go down to the city to visit my kids and ex, and would stay with her, at her invitation. We attended a couple of events - like a mutual friends 50th birthday party together and went to a couple of funerals together.
My youngest kid had come around to acceptance around the 12 month mark as well.
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By 2 years, I don't think anyone gave a flying fuck about "why" we had parted ways.
It was simply a fact that we had.
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By April 2015 I would say that my relationships with assorted people (ex missus, kids, her friends and family, my friends and family etc etc) were as good as they had ever been. 'Different', but good.
Then, my ex missus died suddenly and unexpectedly.
That sure put the pressure back on assorted relationships.
And, they all came through really well.
And remain so now.
Particularly the relationship with my kids (now adults).
In fact, I would say that my relationships with my kids was actually HUGELY enhanced by the tragic passing of their mother. It threw us in together in a maelstrom of pressure, and it not only survived, it thrived.
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Time.
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Judiciously used, time is your friend in the post marital situation.
Things settle down after the initial highly charged emotional storm is weathered.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 19:58:32 GMT -5
Fiery: "But I and plenty of women on this board, we don't like playing games. I'm sure Ms Enna or you didn't have to play games. People who really like each other, they say so. We can't fake our emotions. And if getting a guy's attention, mind you, a guy with some degree of dysfunction in the way he relates to relationships, requires me to be aloof and slightly disinterested, than I could only do that with a guy that I don't want, don't find attractive." I know exactly what you mean! All my life, it's been so easy to get things going with guys I'm not that attracted to. I probably could have had a solid 30-year marriage right now, with the house and the kids and everything....If only I was able to go along with a man I'm not sure I have the right feelings for. When I was a kid, my parents taught me that people (ideally) get married because they love each other. That's probably what most parents teach kids (in western cultures, in the late 20th-early 21st century.) And as I grew up and learned about people and the world, I got the idea that it would be wrong to encourage a man to be serious about me - if I was not sure I felt that way about him. I married my first husband despite having doubts; and then I hung in there for 6 years because I wanted to give it a fair chance and not be a quitter. And I thought I was doomed to always either love or be the loved one, but never have it be mutual. But then I met Mr. Kat, and it *was* mutual. We both wanted each other. And had 7 great years together - until things started unraveling. So now, I wonder. I know that it is possible to have mutual feelings with somebody - because it happened for me once. But I wonder this: what are the odds of that happening to me again? So many times, a guy has been into me, or I was into the guy - but not both. I want to be in a relationship, but as time goes on, I have more and more trouble being dishonest - either with myself, or with the other person. Once you have had a relationship where the feelings are mutual, it becomes harder to accept anything less.
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Post by solodriver on Oct 16, 2016 20:12:20 GMT -5
That philosophy only works with marriage, once you are married. Tricky or tricking or Bait and Switch is the philosophy. A lot of times men are unhappy but they have children together so they stay for the kids, the financial reasons, staying is cheaper than child support and/or alimony. If there were no kids the men would leave. Sometimes it's just financial because the kids are gone. A change in lifestyle is a tough pill to swallow and to impose on someone else. We are kind we don't want to impose a lifestyle change on our spouse and they have to sell the house meanwhile they imposed a sexless lifestyle on us and they don't care. Bottom line - No man you date would put up with refuser behavior. Honestly none of us probably have it in us to be refuser assholes either. We are all kind people. Go Us!! LOL I know that's my problem! Go Us!!!! 
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Post by solodriver on Oct 16, 2016 20:14:55 GMT -5
After 5-years of reading ILIASM, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to get and keep a man is for me to not want him. Yes, it's sounding a bit tricky. It seems to me that men in ILIASM marriages bend over backwards to please their wives, and yet their wives still reject them, and treat them like sh*t. Okay, not all, but enough to be significant. The most amazing thing is, you still want your women, and pursue them. On the other side of the coin are the women of ILIASM with the same deal, so it seems that if you are attracted to and actually want your partner, they don't want you (or not want you in the way you want them to want you), which leads me to believe that for a man to actually want me, be attracted to me, pursue me, and want to be with me, I must not be attracted to him, nor want him touching me. In fact, it must be a man I don't want. 🤔 Like I said, tricky. Caris,
All any woman would have to do to have me and keep me is to love me.
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Post by Caris on Oct 16, 2016 20:54:01 GMT -5
I'd argue that this is not gender specific personally Sister Caris. - Seems to me that refused spouse (male or female) demonstrate a tendency to - " bend over backwards to please their spouses, and yet their spouses still reject them, and treat them like sh*t. Okay, not all, but enough to be significant" And that refusers (male or female) - "don't want you (or not want you in the way you want them to want you)" - However for all that, I reckon you are pretty lose to the mark. I think the best of relationships are where the two people involved do NOT need to have the other one in their life to complete them as a person, but rather choose to have the other person in their life because they add value, mutually. - Personally, I have no doubt that Ms enna does not need me in her life to complete her as a person. She is already quite a complete person. That she chooses to have me in her life I find very reaffirming. For my own part, I reckon I could bumble along ok if Ms enna was not in my life. I don't feel I need her to fill some void in my life. But I am so glad that she is in my life, and is there by her own choice. And I love her like crazy. It's like two individuals, but together by choice. And the fact that she is an absolute cracker in bed doesn't hurt either !! - So your observation - "I Need To Find A Guy I Don't Want" might more accurately be edited to read - "I Want To Find A Guy I Don't Need". Baz, I thought I covered all my bases with, "the other side of the coin are the women of ILIASM, having the same deal." However, I wrote this as a woman, and from my own personal perspective. There is much irony and quite a bit of tongue in my cheek. It definitely was not about "need, and I didn't use the word "need" in that context. I was mostly highlighting the irony of the situation. |
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Post by Caris on Oct 16, 2016 20:57:21 GMT -5
That philosophy only works with marriage, once you are married. Tricky or tricking or Bait and Switch is the philosophy. A lot of times men are unhappy but they have children together so they stay for the kids, the financial reasons, staying is cheaper than child support and/or alimony. If there were no kids the men would leave. Sometimes it's just financial because the kids are gone. A change in lifestyle is a tough pill to swallow and to impose on someone else. We are kind we don't want to impose a lifestyle change on our spouse and they have to sell the house meanwhile they imposed a sexless lifestyle on us and they don't care. Bottom line - No man you date would put up with refuser behavior. Honestly none of us probably have it in us to be refuser assholes either. We are all kind people. Go Us!! No, Bbgirl, "tricky" was me being sardonic. Nothing to do with a philosophy of bait and switch. That was not my intent at all. |
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Post by Caris on Oct 16, 2016 21:01:36 GMT -5
I'd argue that this is not gender specific personally Sister Caris. - Seems to me that refused spouse (male or female) demonstrate a tendency to - " bend over backwards to please their spouses, and yet their spouses still reject them, and treat them like sh*t. Okay, not all, but enough to be significant" And that refusers (male or female) - "don't want you (or not want you in the way you want them to want you)" - However for all that, I reckon you are pretty lose to the mark. I think the best of relationships are where the two people involved do NOT need to have the other one in their life to complete them as a person, but rather choose to have the other person in their life because they add value, mutually. - Personally, I have no doubt that Ms enna does not need me in her life to complete her as a person. She is already quite a complete person. That she chooses to have me in her life I find very reaffirming. For my own part, I reckon I could bumble along ok if Ms enna was not in my life. I don't feel I need her to fill some void in my life. But I am so glad that she is in my life, and is there by her own choice. And I love her like crazy. It's like two individuals, but together by choice. And the fact that she is an absolute cracker in bed doesn't hurt either !! - So your observation - "I Need To Find A Guy I Don't Want" might more accurately be edited to read - "I Want To Find A Guy I Don't Need". No, no. I disagree. I think Caris is not very far from the reality. I didn't and I don't need anyone. There was a time - during most of my marriage - when feeling needed, like the reason I came into this life was to be the lifesaver of my EX. The moment I became a little more "selfish" and loving myself and wanting the best for me, including a man who makes me feel wanted, I actually saved myself and embarked on a much more fulfilling life, in every level. The man I wanted, the first true relationship at least for me after marriage, unfortunately couldn't save himself by such a self imposed prison. Instead of thinking about what he wants, I think he chose to continue to be needed and taken for granted and consistently ignored by an indifferent partner. What can I say, except there's no reason in it but some serious personal struggles. Ha! I was even "suggested" that I should have been more of a chase and that thinking about him and wanting him and wanting to be nearer, was actually an indicator of a certain lack of worth from my side. But I and plenty of women on this board, we don't like playing games. I'm sure Ms Enna or you didn't have to play games. People who really like each other, they say so. We can't fake our emotions. And if getting a guy's attention, mind you, a guy with some degree of dysfunction in the way he relates to relationships, requires me to be aloof and slightly disinterested, than I could only do that with a guy that I don't want, don't find attractive. Of course, I would rather be forever alone, and I'm sure that Caris's post was a bit ironic, but this is for the most part, what happens in reality. And let's add here: Regardless of gender! Yes, you got it Fiery, it was irony and some tongue in cheek, actually based on my own observations of relationships (including my own) over years. |
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Post by Caris on Oct 16, 2016 21:03:58 GMT -5
After 5-years of reading ILIASM, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to get and keep a man is for me to not want him. Yes, it's sounding a bit tricky. It seems to me that men in ILIASM marriages bend over backwards to please their wives, and yet their wives still reject them, and treat them like sh*t. Okay, not all, but enough to be significant. The most amazing thing is, you still want your women, and pursue them. On the other side of the coin are the women of ILIASM with the same deal, so it seems that if you are attracted to and actually want your partner, they don't want you (or not want you in the way you want them to want you), which leads me to believe that for a man to actually want me, be attracted to me, pursue me, and want to be with me, I must not be attracted to him, nor want him touching me. In fact, it must be a man I don't want. 🤔 Like I said, tricky. Caris,
All any woman would have to do to have me and keep me is to love me.
Don't you need to love her too, and be attracted to her? |
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Post by solodriver on Oct 16, 2016 22:35:45 GMT -5
Caris,
All any woman would have to do to have me and keep me is to love me.
Don't you need to love her too, and be attracted to her? That happens during the dating. I learn about her and she learns about me and the qualities that we have will hopefully attract us to love. What I look for in a woman is what is on the inside more than the outside. We have little control over our physical selves, but I'm attracted to passion, sexual energy, and a kind, caring heart.
Hope that made sense.
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