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Post by JonDoe on Oct 14, 2016 10:15:17 GMT -5
My wife legal roommate and I recently "celibated " 25 years of marriage. The last ten years fit the clinical definition of a sexless marriage, at least half of which were truly sexless. Zero. Zilch. Nada. During the best of married times, we had physical intimacy once or twice a month, which from my current vantage point would seem like a gift from the Gods. However, as a young married man who thought he was in love, the constant rejection became very painful. I didn't realize it at the time, but it was very slowly chipping away a piece a me. Now I don't even recognize myself anymore, and it's very sad.
We both had premarital sex before meeting each other. She pursued me, and at the end of our first date she invited me up to her apartment. I was prepared to be a gentleman and wait for the relationship to develop before making sexual advances, but she wanted sex, and despite trying to resist the temptation, I stayed the night. We had sex every time we got together. Sometimes she would call me in the middle of the night to come over and have sex. I could go over to her place at 2am after a night out with my guy friends, and we would have sex, in fact she would initiate it. She even occasionally started having sex with me in the middle of the night while I was still asleep. OMG, I LOVE THIS WOMAN! Or so I thought.
After a year of dating, she told me that she wanted to get married. At the time, I could totally see myself with this woman for the rest of my life. So we got engaged and moved in together. This is when I started to notice a change. Sex became less spontaneous. Suddenly her sleep became more important, even on the weekends. I didn't fully realize it at the time, but we only had sex after I took her out for dinner and drinks. At the time, I thought it was an adjustment period. In fact, when I questioned whether or not to proceed with the wedding, several married people that I talked to assured me that this was only a temporary phase. Unfortunately, you probably know by now that I bought it hook, line and sinker!
Many years later, after we had two kids, she held a dinner for her small group from church. No, I wasn't in the small group, but that is a story for another day. Anyway, at this small group dinner in OUR home, she gave a "devotional" about her premarital promiscuity. She went into details that I wasn't aware of at the time. She shared how she didn't think twice about having sex with strange men, some of which she wouldn't even remember their name the next day. How she had multiple partners in the same day, even when we were dating. The rest is a fog, but there was more she wanted to share. Needless to say, I was stunned. Why was she sharing this after all these years? Why did she choose the one and only time I was present with the small group? Was this her way of apologizing to me or further punishing me? Immediately after my wife finished speaking, the woman who was our friend from the neighborhood and headed up the small group, turned to me and asked "[Jon], what are your thoughts about what [Jane] just shared with the group?". As all eyes were on me, I was stunned, couldn't think, wanted to cry, and ask "Why?" The first and only thing that came out of my mouth was "I had no idea..." After several seconds of uncomfortable silence, the other woman's husband said "Ok, let's pray." I don't remember a single thing that happened afterwards. However, I realize now that I squandered an opportunity to speak openly about the pain our sexless marriage was causing me. Instead, I froze. Of course, when I attempted to have a constructive conversation about it with my wife the next day, she was in complete control, and it ended poorly, with me losing as usual.
Fast forward to about 5 years ago... My wife sheepishly says "I have a confession to make." I immediately thought to myself "Ok, here it comes. How much is this going to cost me? Did she wreck the car?" Then she proceeds to tell me that she bought the "50 Shades of Grey" book and she planned to read it. She had read the typical romance novels for years, but I had heard that this was much more explicit. My mind started racing. "Where did this interest come from? Why is she telling me? Is this an attempt for her to change? Can I afford to let myself be vulnerable again and get my hopes up?" I want to believe that I kept an open mind. Once she started reading the book, she couldn't put it down. She read every night, but only after she went up to bed, while I was still downstairs. One night I went up earlier than normal, and walked in on her masturbating with the bedroom door open, the lights on, and the book laying on the bed next to her. I was shocked, confused, and turned on all at the same time. She immediately jumped up out of bed, covered herself, and raised her voice at me as if I had done something wrong. When I told her how turned on I was and asked if I could join her, she said "No, I already finished." in her usual spiteful rejection tone. So I excused myself, from the room and closed the door behind me, but stood outside the door. After a few minutes, I could hear her moaning again. I remained outside the door until she had her last orgasm, then I went to the guest room, which had become my room many years before. This wouldn't be the first or last time, I found her masturbating, while I suffered in agony. However, being the fool that I am, I remained optimistic that this had the potential of a new beginning in our marriage. She continued reading every week night and twice on Saturday and Sunday until she finished the trilogy.
Every few months, sometimes years, I come out of my fog and realize just how unhappy I am living in a sexless marriage. Now is just one of many such times. As I reflect each time coming out of this fog, I ask myself "Where am I? How did I get here? Where am I going?" Unfortunately, I have plenty of questions, but I don't have any answers. That's it, "I am clueless, naive, foolish, and just plain stupid!" I must be, right? What other explanation can one give for remaining in a marriage where your spouse doesn't want to sleep in the same room, doesn't want to have sex, is basically almost completely uninterested in you?
I say almost because she does care if I work or not, pick up after myself, help with chores, etc. She would definitely throw a temper tantrum if I canceled the weekly maid service.
Until now I have never had the courage and determination to file for divorce, but now the urge to leave is greater than my desire for her to love me, to truly want me. I tried having constructive conversations, counselors, books, etc, but nothing has ever improved the situation for more than a very brief period of time, if at all. Each time I let myself be vulnerable and opened up about how it truly made me feel, without pointing any blame, she would tell me that I am too sensitive, or otherwise do her best to invalidate my feelings. For anyone reading this post that has never experienced a sexless marriage, or is in the early stages of questioning their marriage, let me tell you from experience it is SOUL CRUSHING. It changes you, and affects every area of your life.
Now I feel like an empty shell of the man I once was. I gave up pursuing my career, which is now just a job to pay the bills. Both kids are in college, although, one is still living at home. I made it to the point that I promised myself so many years ago that I would do my best to achieve, yet I am not proud of my accomplishment. I am lost, bewildered, alone, and seriously contemplating divorce. And perhaps the ultimate kicker is that she will be viewed as the victim by her friends and colleagues, as well as our mutual friends and family.
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Post by RexCorvus on Oct 14, 2016 10:33:17 GMT -5
I feel your pain and despair. There is a lot here that reflects my experience as well. I haven't posted my full story yet, but yours resonated deeply with me. I too, over my 20 year SM, cycle through times where I overload myself with work or college and am able to ignore it. Then something happens and it suddenly crashed down upon me.
I'm sorry you are here, but you are among friends. Only those who have experienced a SM can fully understand the soul crushing despair you speak of. I just found this site a few days ago. I was a member of the original EP years ago, and am grateful to have found my old friends. In AA they have a saying "Keep coming back".
RC
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Post by beachguy on Oct 14, 2016 10:51:55 GMT -5
My wife legal roommate and I recently " celibated " 25 years of marriage. The last ten years fit the clinical definition of a sexless marriage, at least half of which were truly sexless. Zero. Zilch. Nada. During the best of times, we had physical intimacy once or twice a month, which from my current vantage point would seem like a gift from the Gods. However, as a young married man who thought he was in love, the constant rejection became very painful. I didn't realize it at the time, but it was very slowly chipping away a piece a me. Now I don't even recognize myself anymore, and it's very sad. We both had premarital sex before meeting each other. She pursued me, and at the end of our first date she invited me up to her apartment. I was prepared to be a gentleman and wait for the relationship to develop before making sexual advances, but she wanted sex, and despite trying to resist the temptation, I stayed the night. We had sex every time we got together. Sometimes she would call me in the middle of the night to come over and have sex. I could go over to her place at 2am after a night out with my guy friends, and we would have sex, in fact she would initiate it. She even occasionally started having sex with me in the middle of the night while I was still asleep. OMG, I LOVE THIS WOMAN! Or so I thought. After a year of dating, she told me that she wanted to get married. At the time, I could totally see myself with this woman for the rest of my life. So we got engaged and moved in together. This is when I started to notice a change. Sex became less spontaneous. Suddenly her sleep became more important, even on the weekends. I didn't fully realize it at the time, but we only had sex after I took her out for dinner and drinks. At the time, I thought it was an adjustment period. In fact, when I questioned whether or not to proceed with the wedding, several married people that I talked to assured me that this was only a temporary phase. Unfortunately, you probably know by now that I bought it hook, line and sinker! Many years later, after we had two kids, she held a dinner for her small group from church. No, I wasn't in the small group, but that is a story for another day. Anyway, at this small group dinner in OUR home, she gave a "devotional" about her premarital promiscuity. She went into details that I wasn't aware of at the time. She shared how she didn't think twice about having sex with strange men, some of which she wouldn't even remember their name the next day. How she had multiple partners in the same day, even when we were dating. The rest is a fog, but there was more she wanted to share. Needless to say, I was stunned. Why was she sharing this after all these years? Why did she choose the one and only time I was present with the small group? Was this her way of apologizing to me or further punishing me? Immediately after my wife finished speaking, the woman who was our friend from the neighborhood and headed up the small group, turned to me and asked "[Jon], what are your thoughts about what [Jane] just shared with the group?". As all eyes were on me, I was stunned, couldn't think, wanted to cry, and ask "Why?" The first and only thing that came out of my mouth was "I had no idea..." After several seconds of uncomfortable silence, the other woman's husband said "Ok, let's pray." I don't remember a single thing that happened afterwards. However, I realize now that I squandered an opportunity to speak openly about the pain our sexless marriage was causing me. Instead, I froze. Of course, when I attempted to have a constructive conversation about it with my wife the next day, she was in complete control, and it ended poorly, with me losing as usual. Fast forward to about 5 years ago... My wife sheepishly says "I have a confession to make." I immediately thought to myself "Ok, here it comes. How much is this going to cost me? Did she wreck the car?" Then she proceeds to tell me that she bought the " 50 Shades of Grey" book and she planned to read it. She had read the typical romance novels for years, but I had heard that this was much more explicit. My mind started racing. "Where did this interest come from? Why is she telling me? Is this an attempt for her to change? Can I afford to let myself be vulnerable again and get my hopes up?" I want to believe that I kept an open mind. Once she started reading the book, she couldn't put it down. She read every night, but only after she went up to bed, while I was still downstairs. One night I went up earlier than normal, and walked in on her masturbating with the bedroom door open, the lights on, and the book laying on the bed next to her. I was shocked, confused, and turned on all at the same time. She immediately jumped up out of bed, covered herself, and raised her voice at me as if I had done something wrong. When I told her how turned on I was and asked if I could join her, she said "No, I already finished." in her usual spiteful rejection tone. So I excused myself, from the room and closed the door behind me, but stood outside the door. After a few minutes, I could hear her moaning again. I remained outside the door until she had her last orgasm, then I went to the guest room, which had become my room many years before. This wouldn't be the first or last time, I found her masturbating, while I suffered in agony. However, being the fool that I am, I remained optimistic that this had the potential of a new beginning in our marriage. She continued reading every week night and twice on Saturday and Sunday until she finished the trilogy. Every few months, sometimes years, I come out of my fog and realize just how unhappy I am living in a sexless marriage. Now is just one of many such times. As I reflect each time coming out of this fog, I ask myself "Where am I? How did I get here? Where am I going?" Unfortunately, I have plenty of questions, but I don't have any answers. That's it, "I am clueless, naive, foolish, and just plain stupid!" I must be, right? What other explanation can one give for remaining in a marriage where your spouse doesn't want to sleep in the same room, doesn't want to have sex, is basically almost completely uninterested in you? I say almost because she does care if I work or not, pick up after myself, help with chores, etc. She would definitely throw a temper tantrum if I canceled the weekly maid service. Until now I have never had the courage and determination to file for divorce, but now the urge to leave is greater than my desire for her to love me, to truly want me. I tried having constructive conversations, counselors, books, etc, but nothing has ever improved the situation for more than a very brief period of time, if at all. Each time I let myself be vulnerable and opened up about how it truly made me feel, without pointing any blame, she would tell me that I am too sensitive, or otherwise do her best to invalidate my feelings. For anyone reading this post that has never experienced a SM, or is in the early stages of questioning their marriage, let me tell you from experience it is SOUL CRUSHING. It changes you, and affects every area of your life. Now I feel like an empty shell of the man I once was. I gave up pursuing my career, which is now just a job to pay the bills. Both kids are in college, although, one is still living at home. I made it to the point that I promised myself so many years ago that I would do my best to achieve. I am lost, bewildered, alone, and seriously contemplating divorce. And perhaps the ultimate kicker is that she will be viewed as the victim by her friends and colleagues, as well as our mutual friends and family. Google "intimacy aversion" if you are not familiar with that term. And then tell us if that's a good fit for your deal...
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Post by bballgirl on Oct 14, 2016 11:04:59 GMT -5
This is a classic Bait and Switch and I should know it happened to me. I'm sure your wife is a nice person but there is no marriage there. She is not sexually into you and does not want to share her sexuality with you. It works both ways, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So you don't have to share your sexuality with her. I outsourced for a couple of years then in 2016 I got a divorce. I didn't like the sneaking. I wanted freedom to have sex whenever I wanted. As well there were so many other issues beyond sex that were wrong with my marriage. You are in the right place and not alone. Read a lot and find your happiness.
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Post by JonDoe on Oct 14, 2016 11:05:17 GMT -5
I feel your pain and despair. There is a lot here that reflects my experience as well. I haven't posted my full story yet, but yours resonated deeply with me. I too, over my 20 year SM, cycle through times where I overload myself with work or college and am able to ignore it. Then something happens and it suddenly crashed down upon me. I'm sorry you are here, but you are among friends. Only those who have experienced a SM can fully understand the soul crushing despair you speak of. I just found this site a few days ago. I was a member of the original EP years ago, and am grateful to have found my old friends. In AA they have a saying "Keep coming back". RC The irony is she eventually complained about anything I tried to fill the void with over the years -- work, online poker and backgammon, reading, watching TV, technology, even sitting quietly in the same room as she watched her favorite TV programs. I even gave up alcohol as my kids reached middle school because I wanted to set a good example for them, but also because I feared that at some point it may be too easy to lose myself in the bottle. She wasn't too happy with that decision either. Oh how I wish their was an AA type group for people living in and/or recovering from a sexless marriage. The only potential problem is the members would be doing it like bunnies with each other.
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Post by JonDoe on Oct 14, 2016 11:17:22 GMT -5
This is a classic Bait and Switch and I should know it happened to me. I'm sure your wife is a nice person but there is no marriage there. She is not sexually into you and does not want to share her sexuality with you. It works both ways, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So you don't have to share your sexuality with her. I outsourced for a couple of years then in 2016 I got a divorce. I didn't like the sneaking. I wanted freedom to have sex whenever I wanted. As well there were so many other issues beyond sex that were wrong with my marriage. You are in the right place and not alone. Read a lot and find your happiness. Ironically, I was the best lover that she ever had. I always did my very best to satisfy her sexually. Despite her admittedly being very promiscuous prior to marriage, she had never received oral sex or expericed orgasm before she met me. I learned to control when I ejaculated until after she had at least one orgasm during intercourse, but of course, I always made sure she had at least one or two orgasm before intercourse too. She enjoys sex when we have it and that is always on her terms, but she is a freakin camel and can go without for very long periods of time, and the stars have to be aligned as well. Back when I was still trying, she would reject me with a sharp, nasty tone. To this day, I cringe when she uses that tone, even when it's not directed at me. I have thought about outsourcing many, many times, but never went through with it because I made a promise that I felt compelled to honor (not judging anyone, in fact I respect your choices and am envious too). I had plenty of opportunities too. I quite one job because I was having an extremely difficult time resisting the temptation of advances in the workplace. In fact, I started working from home 10 years ago because another beautiful young woman in the office wanted to sleep with me and she wasn't afraid to tell me what she wanted to do to me and what she wanted me to do to her. I feel so foolish now for my choices to remain faithful despite the dire circumstances.
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Post by beachguy on Oct 14, 2016 11:23:24 GMT -5
I could almost have written all this. Have you done your homework assignment yet?
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Post by JonDoe on Oct 14, 2016 11:34:24 GMT -5
I could almost have written all this. Have you done your homework assignment yet? By homework, I assume you mean consulting with an attorney. No, not yet, but I have read a ton, thus feel less in the dark. However, I start a new contract on Monday, where I have to work at a client site everyday. It is the first time in 10 years that I won't be working from home. This means I will have less freedom during the day, at least for the first few months, so finding time to do my homework is going to be a challenge, but I'm trying to convince myself not to make any excuses and push forward towards a new life for ME! I hope I am up to the challenge. Honestly, I want to postpone or cancel the contract and focus on me, to hell with the money! In fact, it might be the wise thing to do since I make three time what my wife makes, and the thought of paying her alimony for the rest of my life is likely to kill me.
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Post by beachguy on Oct 14, 2016 12:14:28 GMT -5
Homework: Google "Intimacy Aversion"
Only if you are still confused why your wife fucked your brains out. Until she moved in with you. And why she does herself 5 times a night reading 50 Shades but is revolted by the idea of you participating....
Once you get that then work on the exit strategy. Baza would tell you to see the lawyer first but I wasn't sure if you were ready yet. The first homework might propel you to stage 2
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Post by JonDoe on Oct 14, 2016 12:24:55 GMT -5
Outsoucing Opportunity
A married, female friend of ours from the neighborhood has occasionally, and sometimes very openly, shared that she doesn't get the kind of intimacy she wants from her husband. Unlike my wife, her husband was rather nonchalant about it. On one occasion while out drinking and watching the woman's World Cup a few years ago in mixed company with her husband sitting right beside me, she asked me and another woman if she should get divorced solely because of lack of intimacy. I tried my best in the situation to offer her support, but feared the backlash that would come if my wife over-heard me sharing my pain as well.
On another occasion, when the four of us where out together for this woman's 40th birthday, she was sitting next to me, looking me right in the eyes and said the only thing she wants for her birthday is physical intimacy. This time I was a bit more bold, yet playful and placed my hand on hers and said "I will be more than happy to give you what you want for your birthday!" Her husband immediately, said "I'm ok with that." Interestingly enough, there was no audible reaction from my wife. Her husband drove, so when we pulled up at their house she invited us in to see the new finished basement. She and I had been exchanging lustful glances all night long, and now at this point we couldn't stop looking longingly in each other's eyes. So I smiled, then frowned and said we should be going now despite wanting the complete opposite.
She mentions similar things whenever I'm around and she has had a few drinks, but I have never acted on it or discussed it with her further for fear of being rejected or being blamed for wrecking two marriages and families. I remain very attracted to our friend, and wish I could gain the courage to pursue her.
What would you do in my situation? Should I talk to her and let her know that I feel her pain because I too am in a living hell? Should I pursue her or move on completely and look for a partner with a complete stranger?
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Post by bballgirl on Oct 14, 2016 12:44:04 GMT -5
This is a classic Bait and Switch and I should know it happened to me. I'm sure your wife is a nice person but there is no marriage there. She is not sexually into you and does not want to share her sexuality with you. It works both ways, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So you don't have to share your sexuality with her. I outsourced for a couple of years then in 2016 I got a divorce. I didn't like the sneaking. I wanted freedom to have sex whenever I wanted. As well there were so many other issues beyond sex that were wrong with my marriage. You are in the right place and not alone. Read a lot and find your happiness. Ironically, I was the best lover that she ever had. I always did my very best to satisfy her sexually. Despite her admittedly being very promiscuous prior to marriage, she had never received oral sex or expericed orgasm before she met me. I learned to control when I ejaculated until after she had at least one orgasm during intercourse, but of course, I always made sure she had at least one or two orgasm before intercourse too. She enjoys sex when we have it and that is always on her terms, but she is a freakin camel and can go without for very long periods of time, and the stars have to be aligned as well. Back when I was still trying, she would reject me with a sharp, nasty tone. To this day, I cringe when she uses that tone, even when it's not directed at me. I have thought about outsourcing many, many times, but never went through with it because I made a promise that I felt compelled to honor (not judging anyone, in fact I respect your choices and am envious too). I had plenty of opportunities too. I quite one job because I was having an extremely difficult time resisting the temptation of advances in the workplace. In fact, I started working from home 10 years ago because another beautiful young woman in the office wanted to sleep with me and she wasn't afraid to tell me what she wanted to do to me and what she wanted me to do to her. I feel so foolish now for my choices to remain faithful despite the dire circumstances. First off "when her stars are aligned" - selfish and most likely a reset to keep the conveniences your paycheck provides for HER life. Outsourcing - Don't feel foolish. I admire you that you didn't outsource given so many opportunities. It was a decision I did not come to lightly. I was faithful for 21 years, and I wrestled with the idea of outsourcing for a year before I did it. For me it was a necessary step in the process of me setting myself free. Do your homework so that you are educated. Figure out how things would shake out for you so that you can determine what you want for the rest of YOUR life.
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Post by bballgirl on Oct 14, 2016 13:05:16 GMT -5
Outsoucing Opportunity A married, female friend of ours from the neighborhood has occasionally, and sometimes very openly, shared that she doesn't get the kind of intimacy she wants from her husband. Unlike my wife, her husband was rather nonchalant about it. On one occasion while out drinking and watching the woman's World Cup a few years ago in mixed company with her husband sitting right beside me, she asked me and another woman if she should get divorced solely because of lack of intimacy. I tried my best in the situation to offer her support, but feared the backlash that would come if my wife over-heard me sharing my pain as well. On another occasion, when the four of us where out together for this woman's 40th birthday, she was sitting next to me, looking me right in the eyes and said the only thing she wants for her birthday is physical intimacy. This time I was a bit more bold, yet playful and placed my hand on hers and said "I will be more than happy to give you what you want for your birthday!" Her husband immediately, said "I'm ok with that." Interestingly enough, there was no audible reaction from my wife. Her husband drove, so when we pulled up at their house she invited us in to see the new finished basement. She and I had been exchanging lustful glances all night long, and now at this point we couldn't stop looking longingly in each other's eyes. So I smiled, then frowned and said we should be going now despite wanting the complete opposite. She mentions similar things whenever I'm around and she has had a few drinks, but I have never acted on it or discussed it with her further for fear of being rejected or being blamed for wrecking two marriages and families. I remain very attracted to our friend, and wish I could gain the courage to pursue her. What would you do in my situation? Should I talk to her and let her know that I feel her pain b cause I too am in a living hell? Should I pursue her or move on completely and look for a partner with a complete stranger? If I were you and this is just me- I would bring up the conversation again with the neighbor. Since you are both attracted to each other I would explore that. If that turns into a dead end then maybe a stranger. When I outsourced I went the stranger route. At the same time realize that outsourcing is just a bandaid over 1,000 cuts. It makes you feel better at the moment but it's not a solution.
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Post by RexCorvus on Oct 14, 2016 13:05:28 GMT -5
Have you asked your wife if she wants an open marriage? Would you be OK with an open marriage? Your friends sound like "I'd OK with that", they may have an open marriage. It may be a solution for your marriage.
I am, as far as I know, the only person my wife has had sex with. during one of our "talks" I asked her if she was bored of our sex life? If she wanted to experience sex with other men or women? I had been very sexually active before I met my wife, she hadn't. I told her I would support her and be OK if she felt like she needed to. She told me without hesitation that she had no desire to have sex with anyone else. I believe her. She just has no sexual desire.
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Post by beachguy on Oct 14, 2016 13:14:17 GMT -5
Have you asked your wife if she wants an open marriage? Would you be OK with an open marriage? Your friends sound like "I'd OK with that", they may have an open marriage. It may be a solution for your marriage. I am, as far as I know, the only person my wife has had sex with. during one of our "talks" I asked her if she was bored of our sex life? If she wanted to experience sex with other men or women? I had been very sexually active before I met my wife, she hadn't. I told her I would support her and be OK if she felt like she needed to. She told me without hesitation that she had no desire to have sex with anyone else. I believe her. She just has no sexual desire. Same thought I had... Both the husband and wife were feeling him out for her
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2016 13:27:49 GMT -5
JonDoe, I'm going to repeat what I often tell new people here: Re-read your story. Then ask yourself this: What about this marriage is good for *me*? And as far as the outsourcing - I can understand being cautious if you think it would make terrible trouble later on. But to be brutally honest - I don't understand why you have any moral qualms at all. This harpy you're married to is not only refusing you - she is doing it in a way that hurts you and shames you. IMHO, she deserves to have you outsource - and tell the whole world what a selfish bitch she is.0
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