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Post by zoltar on Sept 8, 2016 23:56:43 GMT -5
Hi, I'm new around here. Seems like the right place to vent a bit, I've really been wanting to discuss this openly with people, but I needed some independent third parties - you guys are it!
I've been married for 17 years, and for the first 10 or so, it all went pretty well. My wife is 6 years older than me, and we were married when I was 24 (so she was 30). We had two daughters (who are now 16 and 14) who are great.
Over the last 5-7 years, things have slowly degraded and the last 18 months have been sexless. Nothing. We sleep separately, she doesn't touch me at all, no kisses, hugs, nothing.
We've been to couples counseling that I organised after she point-blank refused to discuss "us" at all, no matter what approach I took. At counselling, she explained that she's too tired and too busy for any intimacy at all, and that she and the kids "organise everything around you" and how she felt I was angry all the time. I'll admit that at times I had been a grump, mostly displacing work stress into the home which is a mistake. I never shouted at the top of voice at anyone, did anything violent, or anything like that. Worst sort of thing was door slamming, walking off in a huff, that sort of thing. Not behaviours I am proud of, but nothing extreme either. At the time that was happening, I felt that I was getting no support from her at all with my work issues, or that she was even hearing me, however I was chastised if I didn't listen and remember every nuance of her working life.
Over the last two years I've changed my behaviour patterns quite a lot, however she is not interested in doing things with me at all. The counselor (& previously myself) suggested things we could do together to try and rebuild the intimacy, such as holidays, movies, cafes/restaurants, etc etc, but there always excuses from her why she doesn't want to do these. When the counselor suggested we *need* a "date night" every week, the look on her face was one of horror.
The SM part started 18 months ago when she was snoring a lot, and I was having trouble night after night with sleeping. Often, if I could just touch her while sleeping she'd wake a little, interrupt the cycle and I could drop off. One night in my half-asleep stupor, I went to move to her side to touch her as usual, and accidentally kicked her leg. She jumped with a fright, and I aplogised, but she's held it against me ever since (I guess that's just a convenient memory to use?), and slept on the sofa. Then it was her floating between the sofa and bed but things just got worse, she would feign being asleep if I touched her with no reaction. Then the last sex was "well that's your birthday present" after which I really went cold on the idea of initiating - sex was a *gift* for my birthday?! Jeez.
It's been a while since the counselling, as the counselor basically said, "well it's up to you guys to communicate what you want to each other and work it out" as I guess we were just at the same point going around and around at the counseling.
She still doesn't have any interest in intimacy, says she feels best when "she's feeling nothing". She is on SSRIs, I perhaps menopause is kicking in? dunno? Either way, I'm finding it tough. One of my biggest dramas is that she wont describe what it is she wants. I said that if she wants me to go, I'll do it. Or if she wants me to stay, I'll do it and try and make it work, but I want her to give me some idea of what she wants in a relationship. I've described in great detail what sort of things I want from one. At this stage I feel like I want out, but don't want to turn my daughters lives totally on their heads at the end of school (eldest finishes next year), and am comfortable with area I live in but am miserable relationship wise.
I am not sure what to do now. I get on well with other women, (& people generally) enjoy traveling and having fun, but don't want to sh!t over everything. There's no easy way out of this, is there? I think either way, I will be blamed for it all, probably best I just suck it up now.
Well this was just a vent, thanks to any that got this far, feels a bit better just getting it out there.
cheers,
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Post by eternaloptimism on Sept 9, 2016 0:15:50 GMT -5
Hi, I'm new around here. Seems like the right place to vent a bit, I've really been wanting to discuss this openly with people, but I needed some independent third parties - you guys are it! I've been married for 17 years, and for the first 10 or so, it all went pretty well. My wife is 6 years older than me, and we were married when I was 24 (so she was 30). We had two daughters (who are now 16 and 14) who are great. Over the last 5-7 years, things have slowly degraded and the last 18 months have been sexless. Nothing. We sleep separately, she doesn't touch me at all, no kisses, hugs, nothing. We've been to couples counseling that I organised after she point-blank refused to discuss "us" at all, no matter what approach I took. At counselling, she explained that she's too tired and too busy for any intimacy at all, and that she and the kids "organise everything around you" and how she felt I was angry all the time. I'll admit that at times I had been a grump, mostly displacing work stress into the home which is a mistake. I never shouted at the top of voice at anyone, did anything violent, or anything like that. Worst sort of thing was door slamming, walking off in a huff, that sort of thing. Not behaviours I am proud of, but nothing extreme either. At the time that was happening, I felt that I was getting no support from her at all with my work issues, or that she was even hearing me, however I was chastised if I didn't listen and remember every nuance of her working life. Over the last two years I've changed my behaviour patterns quite a lot, however she is not interested in doing things with me at all. The counselor (& previously myself) suggested things we could do together to try and rebuild the intimacy, such as holidays, movies, cafes/restaurants, etc etc, but there always excuses from her why she doesn't want to do these. When the counselor suggested we *need* a "date night" every week, the look on her face was one of horror. The SM part started 18 months ago when she was snoring a lot, and I was having trouble night after night with sleeping. Often, if I could just touch her while sleeping she'd wake a little, interrupt the cycle and I could drop off. One night in my half-asleep stupor, I went to move to her side to touch her as usual, and accidentally kicked her leg. She jumped with a fright, and I aplogised, but she's held it against me ever since (I guess that's just a convenient memory to use?), and slept on the sofa. Then it was her floating between the sofa and bed but things just got worse, she would feign being asleep if I touched her with no reaction. Then the last sex was "well that's your birthday present" after which I really went cold on the idea of initiating - sex was a *gift* for my birthday?! Jeez. It's been a while since the counselling, as the counselor basically said, "well it's up to you guys to communicate what you want to each other and work it out" as I guess we were just at the same point going around and around at the counseling. She still doesn't have any interest in intimacy, says she feels best when "she's feeling nothing". She is on SSRIs, I perhaps menopause is kicking in? dunno? Either way, I'm finding it tough. One of my biggest dramas is that she wont describe what it is she wants. I said that if she wants me to go, I'll do it. Or if she wants me to stay, I'll do it and try and make it work, but I want her to give me some idea of what she wants in a relationship. I've described in great detail what sort of things I want from one. At this stage I feel like I want out, but don't want to turn my daughters lives totally on their heads at the end of school (eldest finishes next year), and am comfortable with area I live in but am miserable relationship wise. I am not sure what to do now. I get on well with other women, (& people generally) enjoy traveling and having fun, but don't want to sh!t over everything. There's no easy way out of this, is there? I think either way, I will be blamed for it all, probably best I just suck it up now. Well this was just a vent, thanks to any that got this far, feels a bit better just getting it out there. cheers, Morning Zoltar... And welcome! You are right. There is no easy way out. But we're here to help you through however we can. We all get where you are coming from and have experienced our own reasons for our SM's, some similar to yours some very different. There will be much good advice flowing in a short while I'm sure, and some tough talking too. But rest assured it will all be meant with love and compassion. Xxx |
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Post by baza on Sept 9, 2016 0:32:46 GMT -5
"At this stage I feel like I want out" - you say.
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To objectively explore this option, you'd do well to -
- see a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish how a divorce would shake out for you.
- develop an exit strategy and knock it into do-able status.
- shore up your support network (perhaps including individual counselling) for you.
- research everything you can find on helping kids transition through such an event.
This information would help you think through this option for its' appropriateness as a choice.
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You have been running a live and real time experiment on what living with your missus is like, so you don't need to research that option any further.
You already know what that is like.
If you establish what a divorce would look like for you, then, you could make an objective and fully informed choice about which choice would be best for you.
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At this point, you are really not in a position to objectively evaluate the choices. You lack information on one of the choices.
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Post by unmatched on Sept 9, 2016 0:38:26 GMT -5
Hi zoltar, welcome to the club. It strikes me that more than anything you need a new counsellor. You don't need date nights right now. You have a relationship that has become distant, strained and antagonistic (at least on her side). I don't know how much of that was down to your behaviour and how much wasn't, but at this point it really doesn't matter. If you have zero real communication, zero connection and she is angry towards you (actively or passively) most of the time, then there is no way you can rebuild any kind of intimacy on that foundation. You need to address your emotional issues first and then build on that. Whether she still wants to have a connected relationship with you or not is an open question, but you need to find out. I don't know where you live, but try googling Emotionally Focused Therapy and look for counsellors in that vein - I think it might be a lot more helpful. And I guess you have to consider there is a possibility that she has just checked out of your relationship and is not coming back. Did you try asking her if she really still wants to be in a relationship with you? If she has checked out, but isn't going to do anything about it, what would you do then? |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Sept 9, 2016 7:35:08 GMT -5
zoltar - I think SSRIs have this effect although it is not the only thing making life this way. "I feel better when I feel nothing" is not really living. That's fine if you want to check out of life, but it doesn't mean you get to take me with you. For me - my Ex had been so focused on "not dying" (fear of mortality running his life after prostate cancer diagnosis & treatment) that it was NOT the same as actually enjoying each day of life - - he was much more focused on amassing a quantity (of getting his way, piling up money, never taking risk). Anyway - I got to the point where I couldn't hang on. I had to leave to live. My stepkids were all older already, and I maintain same relations as I had with them while we were still married basically. Go with research. Lawyers offer free consultations. You can plan out a timeline taking into account the high schooler graduating, etc. You do NOT have to act on your exit plan. But it is an excellent exercise and adds to your feeling on empowerment. Once you know WHAT you are choosing between, then you are no longer a victim of her whims. Welcome to the club no one wishes to be in. Sorry you qualify, but glad you found this forum. It has provided so much support through my discovery phase, strategizing stage, and exit plan execution - it's been priceless emotionally. I hope you find what you need in our group.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 15:09:29 GMT -5
unmatched is right, this is way beyond anything date nights can fix. If you poke around here and in the old EP ILIASM, you'll find few success stories where they turned it around over the long run. But in just about every case where they did, it took basically a kamikaze approach. You have to impose consequences for failure to make whatever changes you consider non-negotiable....consequences as in this marriage is over. You have to be willing to end the marriage...and MEAN IT. This isn't brinksmanship. This is your line in the sand. If this or that does not happen, now (or very soon, don't let her drag it out), this marriage is over.
Sounds brutal and it may indeed be the end. But the chances of any change without YOU taking control of this are about zero. You've approached this so far by basically begging. You ask her what to do. You ask her what she wants. You pursue her and she remains walled off. If you aren't willing to end the marriage, you might be better off going for individual counseling to help you cope with it, because this is likely to be your life for the duration.
Unless you choose to leave or outsource of course. But fixing it? You have to put it on the line or don't bother.
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Post by zoltar on Sept 9, 2016 16:58:48 GMT -5
Everyone, I really appreciate your responses.
I will reply with more detail in the next couple of days, but a lot of what you're all saying is definitely hitting home.
In my mind I'd been thinking that enough time has elapsed, opportunities given, and it's now time for me to stand firmly by "my line in the sand". Going to be tough, but as tough as the alternative would be for the next X years, I doubt it.
Again, thanks all.
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Post by Dan on Sept 11, 2016 15:43:15 GMT -5
Everyone, I really appreciate your responses. I will reply with more detail in the next couple of days, but a lot of what you're all saying is definitely hitting home. In my mind I'd been thinking that enough time has elapsed, opportunities given, and it's now time for me to stand firmly by "my line in the sand". Going to be tough, but as tough as the alternative would be for the next X years, I doubt it. Again, thanks all. Yes, you DO need to know that which is "non-negotiable" for you to be satisfied in remaining in your marriage. Because then you will be better able to share it and work for it. However, delivering that news in a confrontational manner -- as by using the phrase "this is my line in the sand" -- is NOT likely to get the results you'd like... as who wants to have sex demanded of them as a condition for you staying in the marriage? But the other extreme is just as bad: if one is too soft-spoken, too giving, too understanding of the low-libido spouse's "reasons"... the refused partner is not likely to find satisfaction. Over the years, I probably committed both faults: probably the second fault more often than the first. I've been looking for the "sweet spot" in the middle where we can make meaningful progress. I'm sad to report: it hasn't really happened for me, and at this point, I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist in my marriage. |
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Post by warmways on Sept 11, 2016 17:37:18 GMT -5
I think it's best to find a lawyer and learn exactly what your deal is. Disclaimer - I haven't made the call yet and feel like an imposter giving you this advice but I will make the call.
Don't spend years waiting like I did. It's so draining and makes it more difficult to act.
Whenever you take some action - you're going to feel hopeful and more clear. for me it was talking about it with friends and on here. Next will be calling the lawyer.
Living in a SM tends to make one feel hopeless and very unclear.
Good luck -- I hope you can get some information -of course you don't have to act on it right away or ever, but you'd be protecting yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2016 22:19:20 GMT -5
Yes to agree with warmways, talk to a lawyer before you say or do anything. Acting first may be very important in a legal proceeding, and if your spouse knows you're thinking of leaving they might lawyer up first and broadside you.
Also, Dan is right. No one wants to be cornered into having sex. But if you don't corner them nothing will change. Which is why this is so hopeless.
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Post by zoltar on Sept 12, 2016 18:58:25 GMT -5
baza and others - I will do some research into the legal side of things, to better prepare myself, as currently I am not really prepared there at all. It will be good to have more knowledge on options
unmatched - Hearing you, and yes I have asked if she wants to be in a relationship with me, and there was no real answer, the topic was avoided. To me, that either says "no, not interested" or "undecided". A good friend has said before, "the question to ask is, 'do you want to grow old with me'" which is sort-of along the same lines. The responses to that have been non-existent or non-committal.
dan,warmways and others - Yes I understand how unappealing the "stand and deliver" stance is/could be in this scenario, and how it's effectively a catch-22. I keep oscillating between "it's not too bad" and "A relationship should be more than this! We both deserve more out it!! I need change now!", which I think is representative of where it is all at now, in that someone needs to step-up and take the initiative. I know it will be me, however at this stage I'm not going to rush it - I've survived this long and learnt some things about myself in the process which I'm better off for. It seems now it's about preparation.
thanks again all,
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 23:14:18 GMT -5
If I were king, I would remove anti depressants from humans. They are terrible fucking things and are responsible for much misery. People go to a shrink, or a regular doctor and are diagnosed with depression. They are then given a happy pill and, often, and anti anxiety pill. These pills dont work in the long run!!! They make people dependent on them,a nd the side effect are worse then the disease.
I am a medical professional and have seen this over and over, time after time.
Ever heard a doctor or therapist say "counseling is good, but takes a long time. Drugs are much quicker"? This is quite common!!
In our society we have to be functional. Go to work, take care of things, bring home money, pay bill, buy all the right stuff that we are told to buy, and on and on. Take these pills and you will be functional to be the drone you need to be. BTW, you wont feel anything any more, but who cares, you will be functional.
Interesting what we consider functional.
Read the book "anatomy of an epidemic"
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Post by baza on Sept 13, 2016 2:17:47 GMT -5
Brother zoltar, there is one underlying principle to keep in mind as you pick your way through the ILIASM shithole minefield.
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If you are going to bring this to resolution, the marriage has to be put on the line.
There are no ifs buts or maybes about that unpleasant truth.
No avoiding it.
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And, the likelyhood of the resolution being like happened for Brother Time4living2 (a 180 turnaround) is very very VERY low.
Far, far more likely is that the method of resolution will be the collapse of the marriage.
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Doing your full research on how a divorce would shake out for you in your jurisdiction would be highly prudent on your behalf (together with exit strategy / support network etc)
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Post by zoltar on Oct 4, 2016 0:00:31 GMT -5
Hello All,
Nothing much, if anything has changed.
I understand a lot of this is down to me - if I don't force the point, I don't think she's going to bother chasing it up.
There has been some work stuff that has got in the way - which has delayed me doing much.
I texted today (seeing as we're both at work) "How are things going for you? Do you want to talk further about us, and what you'd like?" to which the response was
"I'm working this weekend".
Now, yes, the last catch-up/chat was done at a coffee shop on a weekend, but I did expect a "yes" or "no" or "not ready yet" or...just some sort of response to show that there is some point/interest in continuing with this.
Am I reading too much into this, or have I basically nailed the situation whereby it's a "roll-eyes-and-sigh-and-go-through-the-motions-so-he-doesn't-up-and-leave" scenario?
thanks again.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 0:49:24 GMT -5
Anxiety, depression and SSRI's are a potent killer of ones sex drive. If you can get the psychological problems under control the meds still kill the ability to feel sexual desire. Some Doctors recommend dual therapy by adding a non SSRI antidepressant like Wellbutrin to counteract the effect. Better still a total switch to Wellbutrin alone has been known to increase sex drive.
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