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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 20:46:59 GMT -5
So, just curious. For those of you that told your partner that you wouldn't tolerate a SM anymore, did you give expectations and consequences? Did you tell them "here is the line in the sand, if you cross it, I'm done". I did this. I told her that I expected at least once a month that was mutually desired. I told her that that was my absolute bottom line. I told her that once a week would be ideal though. So I asked her to try to help us be between those two limits in order for me to go the distance. I wonder, have you done this? If so, where did you draw your line in the sand? Has the line been crossed? If you haven't drawn this line, where would you draw it? Beeman, I am one of the rare people that have turned my SM around to a decent degree. I am not in a perfect marriage though by any means and we are still working on things. But at least we have sex about once a week, almost always on weekend mornings. We have been regular and consistent with sex since January 2014. When I was close to leaving in 2013 and we finally both went to counseling in late 2013, I told the counselor and her what I wanted: sex 1-2 times a week. Consider that prior to that we had sex twice in the whole calendar year 2013, and prior to that we had a stretch where we had sex once in a 4 -year period. Our marriage was at stake and she knew I was serious about leaving if we couldn't work it out. So that was the "consequence" if she didn't meet my expectations. I asked for 1-2 times a week at that time because I felt that if I only asked for 2x/month and then things tapered off after a while, then we might only be having sex once a month... which would also drive me crazy... that's borderline SM. I was in the driver's seat and had control because I was willing to walk. She didn't want to lose me. Granted, I asked for sex 1-2 times a week and we've been tracking around 1 time a week... on the lower side of what I originally asked for. But again, I'm not perfect either and if we're having sex 2x/week she's going to be wanting more from me as well to feel more loved (e.g. if you know the 5 Love Languages book / concepts, we have different love languages so it's not my natural tendency to do certain things for her... I have to be conscious about it and work at it). The bottom line is that I am probably average satisfied with my relationship at this point but hoping we can still do a lot better with it. What makes it tough is that we have a decent amount of dysfunction in the entire family (us as a couple, teenage kids with their own issues, more extended family members, etc.).. a lot of it I pin the blame on a SM existing for the first 20 years of marriage. It was a hellishly long time to be in a SM and a ton of resentment built up over time. In contrast, if we had a loving sex filled marriage from year 1, I think a lot of the crap we're dealing with now wouldn't exist. Anyway, back to your question, that's how I drew my line... at 1-2 times a week. If you're willing to walk and your spouse knows it / believes it / treats it as a real threat, you should have the control to get what you want / need. I would recommend being a bit more aggressive in asking for what you need. Ask yourself: If it tapers off from the level you're asking for, what would you do and would you still be happy? If you ask your spouse to "try"... that gives your spouse a whole lot of wiggle room to get out of it. She MUST make the time for physical intimacy on a more regular basis, otherwise she must understand that your marriage WILL fail and you will separate / divorce. She has to start to see sex as a NEED, not a want. This only happened in our relationship when my spouse and I went to counseling together. My W / refuser tried to wiggle out of it by essentially saying she always feels exhausted and there is no time for sex when dealing with work and the kids, etc. But the counselor didn't let her out of it. He told her: "There are 168 hours in a week... Certainly there must be *some* time in there where you can have sex. Generally speaking, what time of day and what time of week do you feel the least exhausted?" After a minute of silence she finally responded that weekend mornings she felt the least amount of stress. So that's what worked for us and why we're on a weekly weekend morning routine. Hope this helps! TL2 Jeez compare your therapist to cagedtiger's first, "it's just a man/woman thing." I guess I should qualify my generally dim view of marriage counseling with the caveats that if you have a therapist who understands sexless marriages, if your spouse is willing to meet you halfway for real for the duration, and if you're truly no fooling around ready to walk, there's a good chance you'll get somewhere. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 23, 2016 20:50:14 GMT -5
I briefly mentioned once a week after we had a re set from a 3 1/2 yr dry spell. Those were my expectations. The conversations and actions ended any chance of consequences. She proceeded to manipulate, twist words, and try to point fingers. She took my slightest mention of a line in the sand and turned my no, from me into a " hell no" from her. Her words were, " I don't know if I will ever be ready!" And " it would just be duty sex."
From that day on I found my STBX no longer attractive, repulsive actually. Words that help seal the deal. She received her papers yesterday.
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 23, 2016 22:26:13 GMT -5
The thing for me is not so much the frequency (which is gone now), but the quality. I refuse to accept "minimum tolerable" as the standard.
Just doing it "when she feels like it" doesn't cut it, even if it was a couple times a week... I need to be able to initiate too and have her *want* me. Then... a couple times a week would be amazing. But really, that's never gonna happen. No need for a line in the sand.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 23, 2016 23:53:24 GMT -5
So, just curious. For those of you that told your partner that you wouldn't tolerate a SM anymore, did you give expectations and consequences? Did you tell them "here is the line in the sand, if you cross it, I'm done". I did this. I told her that I expected at least once a month that was mutually desired. I told her that that was my absolute bottom line. I told her that once a week would be ideal though. So I asked her to try to help us be between those two limits in order for me to go the distance. I wonder, have you done this? If so, where did you draw your line in the sand? Has the line been crossed? If you haven't drawn this line, where would you draw it?
Let me see if I can understand this....first you give an ultimatum (which is a threat) and then you ask her to "...try and help us be between these two limits..."? That's some real negotiating skills. How'd that work out for you?
IMHO I think Beeman was being too honest in his negotiating... and also probably set his sights / expectations too low. With a lot of people, if you tell them this is the minimum you'll accept, they will give you the minimum. While he was honest in trying to negotiate more than the bare minimum, I think the likelihood of success of getting more than that plummeted due to his honesty. If you think about most things, if all you ever get is the bare minimum you probably won't be truly happy. TL2 |
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Post by Chatter Fox on Aug 24, 2016 11:36:34 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the replies, everyone.
I agree with a lot of the things said. For one, I didn't realize it at the time, but putting my line in the sand did definitely open the door for duty sex. It has not always been the case, but at times, yeah ... definitely just checking off the box. Other times, it seems legit.
As far as how well the line in the sand has worked? Well when we started back up after the line was drawn, it was a weekly thing (sometimes more often) and it was regularly very much a mutually desired event. Throughout the process of two years, the frequency and desire level slowed down bit by bit and now the line has been crossed. Not by much but yes it's been crossed. So, I agree with the downfall of this approach. If I really meant it, I'd be writing right now about how my divorce is going. That's obviously not the case. So, did I lose credibility? I'm sure of it. To be honest though, even though it has been crossed, I have stayed because I have wanted to stay. So, was my line in the sand TRULY my line? I guess not. Was it pushed back now? *sigh* ..yep. So what do I do now? I guess I try to push that line back to where it was. If it keeps creeping away from the one month mark, well then we will see where the true line in the sand is. Apparently she is interested in finding that out too. It's like paying your water bill later and later each month to see when they actually follow through on their threat to shut off the supply. It's playing with fire and she knows it.
I kind of hate this approach but it is the path I started down a couple of years ago and I've stuck with my approach. One positive is that she knows what I expect now. She should not be surprised if 1 and a half months becomes the new standard for a long time and I tell her that I am divorcing her. Finding the true line may be tough to do, but now if the original line is clearly communicated and then clearly disrespected, then I can leave with my head held high.
As for why I chose a month? Why not once a week or twice a week? Well, I gave her the range of once a week to once a month for two reasons. First off, I wanted her to know what I actually wanted (once a week), secondly I wanted her to know what I was willing to live with (once a month). If she fails at once a month, she can't say that I should sacrifice more. I am clearly already sacrficing. I'm sacrificing once a week for once a month. Once a month is not asking much if you ask me. On the other hand, I don't think she could do much better than that over the long haul. I think it's a realistic target for her to shoot for. I also think it's truly what will be what I can tolerate over the long haul. So, it's an honest estimate. Does that mean that 31 days is ok but 32 is not? No. I don't believe so. Maybe I'm being too lenient but I believe a little wiggle room is reasonable. But where is that real line then? 33 days? 34? 35? 40? 60? 365? I guess we'll see how much of an estimate this is by monitoring my frustration levels.
It does kind of feel like a barter of sorts which I absolutely hate. It's almost like a legalized prostitution feel at times. Or almost like I'm holding the well being of our children hostage to have sex. Sometimes though, like I said, it seems quite legit. So it messes with my head. BUT, it's light years better than what I used to do. I'm never going back to once a year pity sex. I did far too many years of that. I'm done with it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 11:49:14 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the replies, everyone. I agree with a lot of the things said. For one, I didn't realize it at the time, but putting my line in the sand did definitely open the door for duty sex. It has not always been the case, but at times, yeah ... definitely just checking off the box. Other times, it seems legit. As far as how well the line in the sand has worked? Well when we started back up after the line was drawn, it was a weekly thing (sometimes more often) and it was regularly very much a mutually desired event. Throughout the process of two years, the frequency and desire level slowed down bit by bit and now the line has been crossed. Not by much but yes it's been crossed. So, I agree with the downfall of this approach. If I really meant it, I'd be writing right now about how my divorce is going. That's obviously not the case. So, did I lose credibility? I'm sure of it. To be honest though, even though it has been crossed, I have stayed because I have wanted to stay. So, was my line in the sand TRULY my line? I guess not. Was it pushed back now? *sigh* ..yep. So what do I do now? I guess I try to push that line back to where it was. If it keeps creeping away from the one month mark, well then we will see where the true line in the sand is. Apparently she is interested in finding that out too. It's like paying your water bill later and later each month to see when they actually follow through on their threat to shut off the supply. It's playing with fire and she knows it. I kind of hate this approach but it is the path I started down a couple of years ago and I've stuck with my approach. One positive is that she knows what I expect now. She should not be surprised if 1 and a half months becomes the new standard for a long time and I tell her that I am divorcing her. Finding the true line may be tough to do, but now if the original line is clearly communicated and then clearly disrespected, then I can leave with my head held high. As for why I chose a month? Why not once a week or twice a week? Well, I gave her the range of once a week to once a month for two reasons. First off, I wanted her to know what I actually wanted (once a week), secondly I wanted her to know what I was willing to live with (once a month). If she fails at once a month, she can't say that I should sacrifice more. I am clearly already sacrficing. I'm sacrificing once a week for once a month. Once a month is not asking much if you ask me. On the other hand, I don't think she could do much better than that over the long haul. I think it's a realistic target for her to shoot for. I also think it's truly what will be what I can tolerate over the long haul. So, it's an honest estimate. Does that mean that 31 days is ok but 32 is not? No. I don't believe so. Maybe I'm being too lenient but I believe a little wiggle room is reasonable. But where is that real line then? 33 days? 34? 35? 40? 60? 365? I guess we'll see how much of an estimate this is by monitoring my frustration levels. It does kind of feel like a barter of sorts which I absolutely hate. It's almost like a legalized prostitution feel at times. Or almost like I'm holding the well being of our children hostage to have sex. Sometimes though, like I said, it seems quite legit. So it messes with my head. BUT, it's light years better than what I used to do. I'm never going back to once a year pity sex. I did far too many years of that. I'm done with it. Good heavens man, this doesn't sound like prostitution, it sounds like the United Nations. I've never seen such complex negotiations over something that should happen without even thinking about it. Is this really about creating hope? When you know there is none? That is a legitimate choice, but it isn't conducive to much that is positive in the long run. |
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 24, 2016 11:52:38 GMT -5
Chatter Fox, there is an upside to your line in the sand. You can be as patient as you choose, and she has no right to be offended when you snap and serve her with papers. She's been forewarned and given a long leash, which she is choosing to hang herself with.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 24, 2016 15:39:35 GMT -5
Beeman - I read your last response above. A few other thoughts for you.
First, stand firm on your frequency target, and be assertive on staying in that range. Using your range as you have defined it... I'd be always asking for a minimum of twice a month so you be sure you stay in that range. If you have a month or two at the minimum 1x/month, then discuss with her how you'd like to try the "maximum" (e.g. weekly) for a month.
Second, if your spouse is short changing you / always giving you the bare minimum, tell her it's unacceptable / you can't live like that, so either you increase the frequency or you go to counseling. If she refuses both then move out for the weekend or go somewhere on your own for an extended weekend without her. That will give her a few days to ponder what life would be like without you.
Third, if your spouse is short changing you, start using some implicit peer pressure. Tell her you can't deal with this... this is not what normal couples do... so you've got to start talking things out with some close family and friends about your SM. She probably doesn't want other people to know about your SM, so put some peer pressure on her. The more you talk to others about this issue too... (family and friends that you trust)... the more and more you'll realize that you are *normal*.
Finally, if you don't feel married to her because of the lack of intimacy, tell her so, and then tell her you're taking your ring off for a while because you don't feel loved like married people should be loved. Another implicit signal.
Send those signals to her. Do those things, and then if you have to serve papers later, there will absolutely be no surprise. She will have had multiple chances. You can then leave in good conscience. And the family and friends that know about the situation in advance (because you talked to them) will know that you're not the bad guy for leaving her.
TL2
P.S. A loving relationship should be about giving the other person what he/she needs. Tell her you'll work more on giving her what she needs, if she works more on giving you what you need. Understand and accept that you are not fully alike and that you are different in what you each may need.
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Post by baza on Aug 24, 2016 22:00:23 GMT -5
Something else to factor in to your thinking Brother beeman.
Unless your missus is pretty thick, she'll have recognised that this is quite likely to end in divorce, and again - if she is smart - she'll have a contingency plan to manage such a scenario.
She may regard the risk of you walking out as pretty low, given the history, but if push comes to shove, she may be far better prepared for such an event than you are, and her fear of that scenario might be considerably less than yours.
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