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Post by baza on Jun 5, 2019 6:52:29 GMT -5
An aspect of one of Brother larry101 's recent posts prompt this post. I'm interested in the memberships opinion about ultimatums to refusing spouses. Now the ultimate sanction you can apply to a refusing spouse is to inform them that if they don't lift their game then you are outta there .... which, obviously you have to be prepared to do. What I'm looking at here is the next level down - a step down from the above - an ultimatum that you WERE prepared to give and WERE prepared to do. A theoretical example .... Maybe you said to your spouse something like - "If you do not see a professional about your issues within 14 days, I am putting the relationship on room mate status"Excluding the "lift your game or I'm outta here", what "lesser" ultimatums have you tried ? What was the issue that you were prepared to stand your ground over ? What form did your ultimatum take ? What happened .... did you have to deliver the consequence ? If it provoked a change in action by your spouse, was the change sustained ? This subject has never really been explored at any depth in the group (as far as I recall) There rarely seems to be any middle ground on ultimatums, rather, it seems to be at one extreme where there is no ultimatum issued to the other end where the ultimate ultimatum is given. And nothing much in between.
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Post by h on Jun 5, 2019 12:08:07 GMT -5
When my W fought me over sexual frequency last year, I told her that if she didn't start making some kind of regular, reasonable, schedule or frequency, then I couldn't tolerate any other physical affection without the sex. She has always been a very touchy person, hugging and kissing and cuddling but not sexually. She always wants her hand on my leg riding in the car and wants my arm around her at night. It was too difficult for me to handle all that touching without the sex. I was hyper turned on all day, every day and I couldn't tolerate it anymore. That was my line in the sand.
She didn't believe me and tried putting her hand on my leg in the car the next day. I picked up her hand and moved it back over to her own leg. She threw a mini tantrum and couldn't believe that I was actually serious about it. I told her I was absolutely serious and after a few more tests of my boundary, she accepted it.
End result: no real improvement in the sex frequency, but she backed off on all the unnecessary touching. Nothing good added but some frustration removed.
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larry101
Junior Member
Posts: 45
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by larry101 on Jun 5, 2019 12:42:02 GMT -5
When my W fought me over sexual frequency last year, I told her that if she didn't start making some kind of regular, reasonable, schedule or frequency, then I couldn't tolerate any other physical affection without the sex. She has always been a very touchy person, hugging and kissing and cuddling but not sexually. She always wants her hand on my leg riding in the car and wants my arm around her at night. It was too difficult for me to handle all that touching without the sex. I was hyper turned on all day, every day and I couldn't tolerate it anymore. That was my line in the sand. She didn't believe me and tried putting her hand on my leg in the car the next day. I picked up her hand and moved it back over to her own leg. She threw a mini tantrum and couldn't believe that I was actually serious about it. I told her I was absolutely serious and after a few more tests of my boundary, she accepted it. End result: no real improvement in the sex frequency, but she backed off on all the unnecessary touching. Nothing good added but some frustration removed. With my wife, this would falter too. Even if she complied, it would result in terrible sex due to pressure. Though I like where this thread is headed. I have a revision to bazas example. Instead of "If you do not see a professional about your issues within 14 days, I am putting the relationship on room mate status" How about "if we do not see a professional about our issues within 14 days, I am putting the relationship on room mate status" This way, she isn't being singled out. Even if plan is separate individual therapy, this works. Just attend yours well before deadline and this will make perfectly clear you're serious.
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Post by baza on Jun 5, 2019 20:04:22 GMT -5
Potentially, here is your first hurdle. Exactly "what" does "putting the relationship on room mate status" actually mean to you ?
Kicking the spouse out of the bedroom (or vacating it yourself) ? Splitting your finances ? Having separate social lives ?
"What" does it mean - in real terms - to you ? "What", in real terms, actions will you have to take ? And are you actually prepared to take them ?
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Post by worksforme2 on Jun 5, 2019 20:45:52 GMT -5
In all honesty this sort of graduated approach never occurred to me. I was all in or not in at all. Being room mates was what brought me to EP to begin with. Maybe you have heard this saying, "scared money won't win". I was not at the time and I do no think I ever would have been interested in any compromise that kept me celibate. I was only interested in a solution where sex somewhere in the mix was part of the solution or compromise, albeit with her or a FWB. So my approach was a linear one. Return to being a wife to me or lets end it.
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Post by baza on Jun 5, 2019 21:09:02 GMT -5
In all honesty this sort of graduated approach never occurred to me. I was all in or not in at all. Being room mates was what brought me to EP to begin with. Maybe you have heard this saying, "scared money won't win". I was not at the time and I do no think I ever would have been interested in any compromise that kept me celibate. I was only interested in a solution where sex somewhere in the mix was part of the solution or compromise, albeit with her or a FWB. So my approach was a linear one. Return to being a wife to me or lets end it. For my own part, my set up was very similar Brother worksforme2 . I didn't have boundaries, I most certainly did not use "intermediate" ultimatums either. In my usual style I sat back and let the little things slide (as did my missus) which is a really bad strategy. Those little things you let slide tend to accrue as dead weight baggage, and if you can't fix the little things you sure as shit are not going to fix the big things so they got let slide too. When enough baggage had been accrued (that took a couple of decades) the dead weight sunk the ship. I never threatened to leave, at any point, though I did have a discussion noting that our deal had become a "Financial Partnership" and that's how I treated it from that time (about 2005 as I recall) The marriage struggled along until 2009 until it became completely untenable In 2009, I did announce I was leaving, but it wasn't an ultimatum - rather it was a statement of fact.
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Post by ironhamster on Jun 5, 2019 22:12:19 GMT -5
I had my own version of ultimatums that did not work. I never said what the consequences would be. I told her what I wanted. What sort of sex, how often, how long. My needs, even clearly communicated, were dismissed as wildly imaginative. I believe she expected my needs could not possibly be real, or that her need for abstinence continued to take priority. Even as it should have been obvious she was no longer in control, such as when a Tinder hookup outed me to her, nothing changed. The delusion that she could maintain control was pretty strong.
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Post by elynne on Jun 6, 2019 15:59:05 GMT -5
An aspect of one of Brother larry101 's recent posts prompt this post. I'm interested in the memberships opinion about ultimatums to refusing spouses. Now the ultimate sanction you can apply to a refusing spouse is to inform them that if they don't lift their game then you are outta there .... which, obviously you have to be prepared to do. What I'm looking at here is the next level down - a step down from the above - an ultimatum that you WERE prepared to give and WERE prepared to do. A theoretical example .... Maybe you said to your spouse something like - "If you do not see a professional about your issues within 14 days, I am putting the relationship on room mate status"Excluding the "lift your game or I'm outta here", what "lesser" ultimatums have you tried ? What was the issue that you were prepared to stand your ground over ? What form did your ultimatum take ? What happened .... did you have to deliver the consequence ? If it provoked a change in action by your spouse, was the change sustained ? This subject has never really been explored at any depth in the group (as far as I recall) There rarely seems to be any middle ground on ultimatums, rather, it seems to be at one extreme where there is no ultimatum issued to the other end where the ultimate ultimatum is given. And nothing much in between. If memory serves I delivered my ultimatum not long before I joined ILIASM. I simply said, “I’m extremely unhappy. If things don’t change I can’t stay.” It wasn’t a threat. It wasn’t said in anger. But I was in complete crisis and meant every word. I worked really hard for two years to try to change things for the better with the almost ex sabotaging efforts to fix the problems. It took me quite some time to get to the “or I can’t stay” but I finally got there. Today we signed our divorce decree. Barring any unforeseen catastrophes we will officially be divorced in 4 to 6 weeks!
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Post by isthisit on Jun 6, 2019 16:15:48 GMT -5
An aspect of one of Brother larry101 's recent posts prompt this post. I'm interested in the memberships opinion about ultimatums to refusing spouses. Now the ultimate sanction you can apply to a refusing spouse is to inform them that if they don't lift their game then you are outta there .... which, obviously you have to be prepared to do. What I'm looking at here is the next level down - a step down from the above - an ultimatum that you WERE prepared to give and WERE prepared to do. A theoretical example .... Maybe you said to your spouse something like - "If you do not see a professional about your issues within 14 days, I am putting the relationship on room mate status"Excluding the "lift your game or I'm outta here", what "lesser" ultimatums have you tried ? What was the issue that you were prepared to stand your ground over ? What form did your ultimatum take ? What happened .... did you have to deliver the consequence ? If it provoked a change in action by your spouse, was the change sustained ? This subject has never really been explored at any depth in the group (as far as I recall) There rarely seems to be any middle ground on ultimatums, rather, it seems to be at one extreme where there is no ultimatum issued to the other end where the ultimate ultimatum is given. And nothing much in between. I never really gave an ultimatum, but once during one of our many discussions about our deteriorating relationship I did tell H that; ‘I will only ever leave you once’. In the moment this was said calmly and kindly but with conviction. In life I am typically very decisive, so if I commit to something barring unforeseen circumstances you can generally take that to the bank. So, when I called it a day on the M earlier this year H immediately understood that there was no going back, this was it. This certainty has been both helpful and also unhelpful. Helpful in that we both know where we stand and are not plagued with futile attempts to change the inevitable. Unhelpful as the weight of the certainty and absence of hope has crushed H for the last 5 months. For us the ‘ultimatum’ was summed up by H just after I dropped the bomb when I reminded him of my many futile efforts to have him listen to my concerns about our relationship; ‘ I’m a stupid bastard... you always mean what you say’. Didn’t help him hear though.
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 6, 2019 20:25:18 GMT -5
Today we signed our divorce decree. Barring any unforeseen catastrophes we will officially be divorced in 4 to 6 weeks! That was a damn long road - congratulations on seeing it through and coming out the other side much stronger. I’m sure you’re relieved and eager to get on with the next stage of your life, which hopefully will include much intimacy and painting!
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Post by elynne on Jun 7, 2019 0:17:14 GMT -5
Today we signed our divorce decree. Barring any unforeseen catastrophes we will officially be divorced in 4 to 6 weeks! That was a damn long road - congratulations on seeing it through and coming out the other side much stronger. I’m sure you’re relieved and eager to get on with the next stage of your life, which hopefully will include much intimacy and painting! Yes!!! Damn long. But it had to be walked. I had to get my citizenship (no small task!) and I had to be certain there was nothing I could do that would improve things. And for a long while I struggled with the question of how much improvement is enough. 😂Turned out to be a completely moot point as the relationship continued it’s death spiral despite all of my super human efforts. Though what a fucking week! My ex had taken the kids camping for 4 days. I went to a friend’s. This past Thursday night after laying on a couch watching a film my back pain resurfaced with a vengeance. I couldn’t stand or walk. The only position I could bear was lying on my left side, right knee pulled up. Saturday afternoon I was admitted to the acute ward, under care of the neurologist. Injections of morphine and heavy pain relievers finally allowed me to move and stand again by Sunday morning. Finally walking again on Sunday was such a relief that I cried. I wasn’t sure how I was going to get through the coming week in severe pain and unable to walk. They sent me home with heavy pain medication until my planned MRI (in 4 days) and Monday I was able to get the children to the child advocate to give their input on the parenting plan, Tuesday to look at a house, and meet with the ex and child mediator to finish the parenting plan. Wednesday with my lawyer, Thursday with the mediator, financial planner and the now ex to hammer out the last details and sign the divorce decree. God! That was a tough week! Especially with the now ex demanding things like an engagement ring given to me by an ex-lover. Refusing to return my paintings he had ‘borrowed’ for his office. Tough week is an understatement. But I survived. Made it to the other side and am going to look at another house today. I really hope I like it, and that if I place a bid it’s accepted. The housing market here is terrible for buyers right now. Only 261 houses for sale (7 years ago over 3000!) and if you don’t call within 24 hours of a house going on the market you don’t even get in to see it. Every house has a blind bidding procedure. Bah! Eventually I’ll find something - but I’d like to move out yesterday! 😅
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Post by shamwow on Jun 7, 2019 6:37:47 GMT -5
Prior to telling her "I'm outta here" I didn't deliver ultimatiums.
Instead I issued my demands in the form of begging. I made the assumption that if she could just see how much I needed intimacy she would come around.
Of course, this approach had no effect on the sexless aspect of the marriage. It did, however, likely decrease her respect for me. This led to the "everything is OK but the sex" lie also falling apart.
Both of us likely would have been better served if I'd had the strength to set boundaries. It would have hastened the end more quickly or (far, far less likely) prompted change. But we wouldn't have soaked in a toxic swamp for two decades.
Wishy washy begging ain't sexy all. Neither are toothless ultimatiums. They solve nothing and actually exacerbate the problem all while keeping you in misery.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jun 7, 2019 11:05:45 GMT -5
Don't say shit you don't mean. Otherwise you shot yourself in the foot.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 21, 2019 12:58:53 GMT -5
During our "reconciliation" (which wasn't really), she tended to engage in hyperbolic conflicts - using "It's over and we're through" as a regular claim in countless fights, which always escalated things and made them worse. I pointed out that if she did it again, even once, that I would take it seriously and it wouldn't be her choice. That made her consider her words and stance more carefully and that kind of hyperbole was curtailed for a few months, until she did it again. I promptly arranged for lawyer consultations and we proceeded with the separation.
When we tried our "opening the relationship" approach, several weeks into the legal process, it was predicated on her claim that the novelty was oxygen for her fire, allowing her to "feel sexual", which she would then share with me. I viewed this at the time as a second relationship but with the same person, and that if it didn't work, we could flip back to the separation.
When I agreed to this, in lieu of the separation that we had already agreed to, we laid out our ground rules. One of those was that if she and I did not revive our own connection, as per her theory, that I would call it off, as marriage wasn't bringing much to the table, and it was a lot harder for me to date as a married man than as a single one, whereas she did not really have that as a significant problem. It worked, seemingly, for a while and we did various configurations of that for a few years.
I continued tracking our frequency, yes's and "no's for my own purpose. When I found it to slip, I raised it. I also warned her that if she continued to react poorly to my own "dates" - and using that as a further pretext to refuse intimacy (when it was her own pitch) - that it was not worth the cost to me.
This lasted about a month. A bit more. It was raised in counselling as well, and she used it instead to justify her behavior.
I first ended my side of the open relationship, pointing out that we had agreed that we both had agreed to a veto. She said she didn't want to and felt that this was a threat to her own paramour relationship, which it was. I countered that I had raised my issues previously and that I had supported her efforts more successfully than she had supported mine. Therefore, that was now over. If she continued, I would regard that simply as infidelity.
In the next few weeks I moved out of the bedroom - permanently. It had become barren for months.
When counselling became a venue for her to exhibit temper tantrums and to try to paint me as a villain for her own faults, and for trying in good faith to pursue the course that she had pitched, I ended counselling and within a week of that, I told her we would separate.
What I trained myself to learn with her is that I could not really rely on what she said. Talking didn't really mean much. I had to look to the actions and results as actual indicators of her intent. And, then, attach my own actions and real world consequences to her actions. One of those real world consequences - the most difficult one to accept - was that I would need to pull the trigger on separating and mean it.
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Post by mescaline on Aug 22, 2019 1:37:38 GMT -5
Not an ultimatum really, but four or five years ago I told my wife I would no longer initiate sex. It was all on her terms from then on.
I've stuck to it and now we have sex once or twice annually. It isn't particularly good sex for me and I've withdrawn any initiation of any physical or verbal sexual affection as a coping mechanism, rather than any attempt at changing anything.
She seems relatively happy with this and I'm more comfortable without playing at being a lover. We are pretty much coparents and housemates.
Not sure if that helps anyone, just a status update really!
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