okiedude
Junior Member
Learning to live with my Situation.
Posts: 87
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by okiedude on Jul 23, 2018 21:02:56 GMT -5
So while reading about baza 's post with the Canary example, I was wondering has there ever been an example on here where the outcome of the relationship is repaired or gets better? Is this always a one-way street to either divorce or compliance? Does therapy only help you realize it is hopeless? I want to think positive but today I am jaded. What is the point in working hard, if the answer is always the same? Sure the discussion helps cope and learn we are not as crazy as we thought. Understanding the mental issues associated with a SM and how the refusers manipulate us and work us. Most of the stories follow a basic outline..... Please tell me someone has brought the canary back to life....
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 23, 2018 21:29:24 GMT -5
That depends on whether the canary just took a nap or asphyxiated. By the time most people are Googling "sexless marriage," the canary is at room temperature.
You might want to consider if the cause of the sexlessness is curable.
Job stress? That may be curable. Health issues? That may be curable. Exhaustion from keeping up with babies? That may be curable. Fear of rejection? Probably curable.
A partner with no sex drive under the best conditions? Asphyxiated. A partner that suppresses a sexual orientation for something you are not? Asphyxiated. A partner with an aversion or revulsion to you? Asphyxiated.
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Post by baza on Jul 23, 2018 21:42:49 GMT -5
Brother @time4living2 has a credible story of successfully clearing the mine of noxious and explosive gases, and so far since doing that, his canary has survived.
Bear in mind that the clearing of the mine was a herculean effort of time and resources on his part AND he had a willing assistant. Also bear in mind that there are 1,191 members here so Brother T4L2 represents 00.08% of that figure.
However, if *you* are pretty much like Brother T4L2 in your outlook and motivation and skill set you are bringing to the table - AND IF YOUR MISSUS IS PRETTY MUCH LIKE MRS T4L2 IN HER OUTLOOK, MOTIVATION AND AND SKILL SET SHE IS BRINGING TO THE TABLE - then you might have a shot.
So the obvious question is, are you like T4L2 ?.....and is your missus like Mrs T4L2 ?
FWIW, my answers to those questions was - (a) - Brother T4L2 had much more resilience and focus than me, so I was NOT like him. He's a better man than me. (b) - My missus was nothing like Mrs T4L2 So my chances of emulating Brother T4L2's result was 00.00%. Your mileage may vary..
T4L2 did not "revive the canary". What he (with the able assistance of Mrs T4L2) did was to create a new environment that a new canary could live in.
And if the collective evidence of this group is anything to go by, there are few - if any - cases here that show the potential to emulate our Brother T4L2 (and missus).
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Post by workingonit on Jul 24, 2018 4:59:21 GMT -5
I also think credit for valiant attempt, hope, and possible turn around can be found in h 's story. Read through his stuff. A spouse can make an effort and make changes! Granted, it is RARE. Also did csl change his deal? I dont remember but he is an advocate for staying.
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kittymox
Junior Member
Just a dandelion
Posts: 32
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by kittymox on Jul 24, 2018 11:10:00 GMT -5
I believe yes, but step 1 is partner has to be willing, has to care about/respect/honor their sexuality/sex life, and want things to be better. Step 2 is they have to want those things with YOU.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 24, 2018 11:28:59 GMT -5
Having read thousands of stories elsewhere on the net, I know of 3 claimed successes that were more than drive by shootings in a thread somewhere.
One was a miraculous recovery, after a 20 year DB that started on the wedding night (she was a virgin). The fact that she turned around and now initiates every night for almost 5 years now is amazing. The fact that he got past his resentments is equally amazing. I figure that perfect storm is 1:1,000,000. Or thereabouts.
He announced intent to divorce and she turned around a few weeks later, while they were planning the divorce. He was deadly serious about the divorce and had no plans for reconciliation. She insisted that the reason for the divorce (SM) remain a secret between them. He refused.
She then started seducing him every night. And has been ever since. When asked why she turned around, she told him that she was too embarrassed to let her very sex positive mother know she fucked her marriage because she wouldn't fuck her husband. Yes, she would rather fuck her husband then let her mother know the truth. Tales from the strange side...
ETA: for clarity, she was one of the rare cases where the idea that the more sex you have the more you want actually worked. I guess it works 1:1,000,000 cases? Cynical me and all... but she apparently is very into sex, it is not duty sex, and it is the only case where that happened that I found to be credible and well documented.
The other 2 are getting duty sex once a week, and have brainwashed themselves into believing that they are happy. One wife told him she has never sexually desired him, or anyone else, ever. But apparently she usually puts in a decent performance. But not always. She also needs to watch lesbian porn in order to get off.
I have seen other less well documented stories, all along the lines of "be careful what you wish for" because it all ended with more duty sex then they were getting before. Nothing more.
Although I respect the idea of the canary in the coal mine, the fact is that a lot of people just don't like sex, or never liked sex with you, and never will. In the USA alone, there are millions of gays in the closet. An unknown number bearded in marriage. There are 3-10,000,000 full blown asexuals. There are unknown numbers of other sexually dysfunctional people totally out of control of the refused, such as Madonna-Whore Syndrome. There are people that are hopelessly intimacy averse (now better known as insecure avoidant personalities). Sometimes the canary dies because it never lived, it was just an illusion, pretending to be alive to secure a suitable cage to die in.
ETA: All 3 of these cases involved putting the marriage on the line, apparently with very credible threats of divorce. One of the last two cases, they separated, still are separated, and plan to remain separated for the foreseeable future. They only see each other on weekends, and usually, but not always have sex then. I'm not even sure I would call that a "recovery"?
ETA2: In the first story, the 20 year DB that turned around, he is still struggling with resentment and talks about it frequently. And this is almost 5 years after the turnaround. It is an object lesson in the (negative) power of resentment. And he is a far better man then me, and a better man then most men.
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Post by baza on Jul 24, 2018 21:41:00 GMT -5
The basis of this comment is 7 years reading in the old EP ILIASM group (which had 50,000+ members) and another 2 years worth of reading on this site (1,191 members) During this time there were 8 credible stories of people turning their ILIASM shitholes around. Most noteable among them timeforliving2 - @modlulu - lovelyalone . And last I heard, modlulu's deal was tanking again, and lovelyalones had pretty much degenerated as well. But lets be generous, and add Sister workingonit 's nominations of Brother h and Brother csl as well to the 8 thus making an even 10. On the most generous basis, it looks like this ---- 10 out of the old EP ILIASM group of 50,000 is 00.02% or roughly 1 in 5,000 Or, if you like 10 out of the current group here of 1,191 or 00.84% which is roughly 1 in 119.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 24, 2018 21:49:54 GMT -5
I believe yes, but step 1 is partner has to be willing, has to care about/respect/honor their sexuality/sex life, and want things to be better. Step 2 is they have to want those things with YOU. And I'll add Step 3: They have to be CAPABLE of it. My SM had all the above but sadly, step 3 was not a possibility despite therapy.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 21:59:02 GMT -5
The basis of this comment is 7 years reading in the old EP ILIASM group (which had 50,000+ members) and another 2 years worth of reading on this site (1,191 members) During this time there were 8 credible stories of people turning their ILIASM shitholes around. Most noteable among them timeforliving2 - @modlulu - lovelyalone . And last I heard, modlulu's deal was tanking again, and lovelyalones had pretty much degenerated as well. But lets be generous, and add Sister workingonit 's nominations of Brother h and Brother csl as well to the 8 thus making an even 10. On the most generous basis, it looks like this ---- 10 out of the old EP ILIASM group of 50,000 is 00.02% or roughly 1 in 5,000 Or, if you like 10 out of the current group here of 1,191 or 00.84% which is roughly 1 in 119. I agree the odds are low, but surely not all 50K members of EP's ILIASM were active! The 1191 figure is also high. Just about half of that number never posted a single time. Another 300 or so posted less than 10 times. I would argue that we can only know with a degree of certainly the 200 or so who have posted more than 50 times. For the vast majority, we simply don't know what their situation is.
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Post by baza on Jul 24, 2018 22:30:14 GMT -5
The basis of this comment is 7 years reading in the old EP ILIASM group (which had 50,000+ members) and another 2 years worth of reading on this site (1,191 members) During this time there were 8 credible stories of people turning their ILIASM shitholes around. Most noteable among them timeforliving2 - @modlulu - lovelyalone . And last I heard, modlulu's deal was tanking again, and lovelyalones had pretty much degenerated as well. But lets be generous, and add Sister workingonit 's nominations of Brother h and Brother csl as well to the 8 thus making an even 10. On the most generous basis, it looks like this ---- 10 out of the old EP ILIASM group of 50,000 is 00.02% or roughly 1 in 5,000 Or, if you like 10 out of the current group here of 1,191 or 00.84% which is roughly 1 in 119. I agree the odds are low, but surely not all 50K members of EP's ILIASM were active! The 1191 figure is also high. Just about half of that number never posted a single time. Another 300 or so posted less than 10 times. I would argue that we can only know with a degree of certainly the 200 or so who have posted more than 50 times. For the vast majority, we simply don't know what their situation is. Ok Brother @shynjdude . We'll do the sums on your figures, throwing everything at the turnarounds (10) and heavily discounting the members (to 200) 10 out of 200 is 5.00% or 1 in 20. Five percent. 5%. Calculated on as generous a basis as possible. I put the challenge out to you - or anyone else who wants to have a go - to find these 20 credible turnaround stories within the 200 active members here. Or for that matter, within the 1,191 members here. And for that matter, feel free to go back into the old EP/ILIASM group of 50,000 as well. I don't believe you are going to find 20. I think you'll be lucky to find 10...but I believe you will find 8. And, you'll find that of those 8, Sisters @modlulu and lovelyalone situations have degenerated back into ILIASM shithole status, pulling the turnarounds back to 6.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 22:44:45 GMT -5
Yes, 4% or 5% is low, but high enough that people with incentive would try to beat the odds. And I hate discouraging the ones that have a shot. But asking them to evaluate their entire situation besides the sexlessness is laudatory.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 24, 2018 23:25:17 GMT -5
We should remember one member over the last year that was able to fix her sexless marriage to at least some degree. tiredoftears husband turned out to have a sort of cuck fetish. He began supporting his wife's outsourcing, and started having sex with her again. I have no idea how the story turned out. It is certainly an outlier, but I am optimistic that they found an arrangement that, no matter how unorthodox, worked for them.
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Post by baza on Jul 24, 2018 23:34:30 GMT -5
We should remember one member over the last year that was able to fix her sexless marriage to at least some degree. tiredoftears husband turned out to have a sort of cuck fetish. He began supporting his wife's outsourcing, and started having sex with her again. I have no idea how the story turned out. It is certainly an outlier, but I am optimistic that they found an arrangement that, no matter how unorthodox, worked for them. The other end of that would be @modlulu who's turnaround faltered in the dying days of EP/ILIASM. And lovelyalone who's turnaround tanked in Dec 2016 (her story is up in this very group if you want to see it) So these two would fall off the "successful turnaround" list. 1 on (tired of tears) 2 off (modlulu and lovelyalone)
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2018 23:58:27 GMT -5
Brother @time4living2 has a credible story of successfully clearing the mine of noxious and explosive gases, and so far since doing that, his canary has survived. Bear in mind that the clearing of the mine was a herculean effort of time and resources on his part AND he had a willing assistant. Also bear in mind that there are 1,191 members here so Brother T4L2 represents 00.08% of that figure. However, if *you* are pretty much like Brother T4L2 in your outlook and motivation and skill set you are bringing to the table - AND IF YOUR MISSUS IS PRETTY MUCH LIKE MRS T4L2 IN HER OUTLOOK, MOTIVATION AND AND SKILL SET SHE IS BRINGING TO THE TABLE - then you might have a shot. So the obvious question is, are you like T4L2 ?.....and is your missus like Mrs T4L2 ? FWIW, my answers to those questions was - (a) - Brother T4L2 had much more resilience and focus than me, so I was NOT like him. He's a better man than me. (b) - My missus was nothing like Mrs T4L2 So my chances of emulating Brother T4L2's result was 00.00%. Your mileage may vary.. T4L2 did not "revive the canary". What he (with the able assistance of Mrs T4L2) did was to create a new environment that a new canary could live in. And if the collective evidence of this group is anything to go by, there are few - if any - cases here that show the potential to emulate our Brother T4L2 (and missus). Thanks for the kind words baza ... I'm not sure I'm a better man really... I easily could have moved on if my W / refuser had waited another few months before trying to initiate sex. I think we had a good / above average counselor that my W and I both trusted, and he was able to get through a few key things to my W that I had been unable to do in 19 years of marriage.
To your point, though... I think we did create a new environment that was helpful. In simple terms, my W's primary need was emotional intimacy, and my primary need was physical touch / physical intimacy / sex. After so many years of drifting apart, we were in a "downward spiral"... she wasn't giving me what I needed and therefore certainly I was resentful and didn't give her what she needed. Through counseling and better understanding of each others' needs, we were able to reverse the direction to create an "upward spiral"... Enough sex and other physical touch / intimacy to meet my primary need and me spending more (other) quality time with her to meet her emotional intimacy primary need. And surprise, surprise... with more "practice" at sex we've gotten better at it too... much better than the once-a-year 15-minute roll between the sheets.
There were so many factors that came into play with my deal... so many things I did, that I really should write a thorough chapter on it. I started on the old EP site but never finished a full story.
Yes, I think the odds are against people by the time they start doing internet searches on "sexless marriage". A lot of damage has been done at that point. Knowing what I know, I generally would advocate people "Giving it one last shot" with a good counselor, let your refuser know that, and then if it doesn't work in a pre-determined and communicated "reasonable amount of time", then be willing to at least separate and thereafter divorce if you can't reconcile. Life is too short to live unhappy.
Now I'm going to segue to provide some additional perspective on my / our 4 1/2 year SM recovery...
For the record, my marriage is not perfect... and with the wisdom I've gained from EP and this ILIASM Forum I do not believe in soulmates. I do believe in degrees / levels of compatibility. For example, on the scale of 1 to 100, ask yourself how compatible are you with your spouse / partner? Ask me on any given day and I’ll probably give you an answer between 50-70. Above average technically on that basis, but is that degree of compatibility good enough to be reasonably happy? My marriage will probably never be anything higher than an 80 on the compatibility rating, even if things improve from here. Am I OK with that? Currently I am. There are some things I enjoy doing by myself and with my own friends / without the W. She doesn’t like doing those things / we’re not compatible in those areas, so we do some separate things. I will never like some of her things and she will never like some of my things. I’ve accepted it.
Given that I don’t believe in soulmates, could I be happier with someone else? No doubt, yes, because there are 7 billion people on this earth. And no doubt, when marriage and raising a family is at stake, I shouldn’t have settled on anything short of a 95 compatibility rating. The thing is though, in my young 20s I was naïve and actually thought we were a 95 or so. I didn’t realize some of our key differences back then and I certainly knew nothing about SMs. Love at the time was blind.
Are the differences and/or certain aspects of unhappiness enough for me to want to divorce now? No. Before, at the worst of our SM I probably would rate our compatibility in the 0-10 range. Now we’re in the 50-70 range. However the SM has forever changed me – even though I am happier now. How? I now know that divorce is an option at any time. Being married to someone is a *daily* choice. Before 2013 my stronger religious beliefs effectively prevented me from divorcing. Now, I logically know that option is on the table at any time if things were to get bad enough. I would not hesitate at all to go back to counseling, and if that didn’t work, to separate or divorce.
I went on a bit of a tangent there in response to Baz’s post, but hopefully it provides a bit more understanding as to my successful recovery from my SM deal. Bottom line is that it currently works enough for me to stay in this marriage, given a whole bunch of factors which I could elaborate on in a whole other chapter. However, even with a reasonable amount of sex back in the picture, I’m not living a fairy tale marriage with a soulmate. Just trying to tell it straight up. Call me a success with a footnote / living an average happy marriage / whatever you want. If sex is the only statistic we’re tracking, then I’ve not had a SM since 12/31/13 and I’m in reasonable sex land. Carry on with your stats.
TL2
P.S. If anyone wants further perspective, check out my recent posts, and any prior posts as well. I was on hiatus for about 8-10 months but will try to check back in here a lot more regularly going forward. This last week was actually a good week for me to get reconnected here.
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Post by baza on Jul 25, 2018 0:26:34 GMT -5
Yes, 4% or 5% is low, but high enough that people with incentive would try to beat the odds. And I hate discouraging the ones that have a shot. But asking them to evaluate their entire situation besides the sexlessness is laudatory. All the data - to me - points to turnarounds being as rare as rocking horse shit, even by the most generous massaging of the figures. And I think any newbie arriving here needs to know just what a longshot the 'turnaround' is. In all truth, I don't believe the 'turnaround' rate evident in here is anything like 5%.
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