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Post by imstrongernow on May 11, 2018 21:16:14 GMT -5
Hello,
I've been lurking here for the last couple of days, and spending hours reading the hundreds of stories and advice here has done two things for me. First it has provided some much needed support and clarity around my very depressing SM. Most everything here is so damn familiar to my story.... the resent... the anger... the uncertainty... the isolation..... But mostly the HUGE warning signs that were present in everyones situation that we actively chose to deny or rationalize. I have been angry for a while, and just very recently realized that much of the anger is at myself.. Because if I'm really honest, I knew what my situation was long ago but was unwilling (and unable) to really look at it.
So I knew (but choose not to know) about two years ago when I attempted to bring up my desires and needs for our relationship. My wife frankly told me that she would be fine not having sex ever again. The part of this that really intensifies the FOG is the truth that she does struggle with depression and is on meds for it. (some medical basis for rationalization was what I told myself)
I've done my best over the years to consider that, however the moment I knew is when she went a step further and said "I'm more likely to commit suicide than initiate sex with you" Even though that may have been a true statement for her, that is the moment I knew. (but have been in denial about it for two years) Shortly thereafter we moved into separate bedrooms and I kind of withdrew from myself and stopped making any advances or putting in much effort. Pain of the constant rejection was just too much. Better to be numb than full of resentment. Well.. the resentment is there anyway, so that strategy didn't work!!!
So the second thing is that I'm just now admitting to myself the truth that... (insert all of the conclusions talked about on ILIASM) I think some part of me just had to be sure, to see if the behavior matched the words. Unfortunately it does.
I just cannot see myself living like this the rest of my life. I have lots of guilt just thinking about "abandoning" someone struggling with a real issue. (Depression) I feel like doing so would make me a terrible person, which creates shame.
I know these are all the hallmarks of a dysfunctional relationship. It just feels different when in it, as apposed to looking at it as on outsider from a clinical standpoint. The hopeful part of me, though, sees this as a huge opportunity to work on me.
So when did you know? or should I say how long of suffering in a SM did it take you to be honest with yourself?
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Post by baza on May 11, 2018 22:15:12 GMT -5
I am "assuming" here that your missus is NOT managing her depression terribly well. "If" in your history there was a time when the sex was good, all might not be lost here, as some medications can interfere with an otherwise healthy sex drive. So suggestion #1 is that a review of her medication might be in order. Of course, getting her up to the line to undertake that review might be a big roadblock. A rational discussion, persuasion or even straight up co-ercion might be methods you could use. None of which might work. If however there was never any "good old days" then you have an intractable problem that you cannot control or even influence to any meaningful sense. It ain't your problem to fix, even if you could (and you can't). And your problem, one that you CAN do something about, is - "do I continue in this dysfunctional relationship ?" and obviously at this moment, here and now, today, your answer is "yes, I stay"....you have not actually got any alternative, today. So suggestion #2. Start seriously looking at constructing that alternative. See a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish - theoretically - how a divorce would shake out for you. Within that legal framework start developing a life plan*, how you might theoretically get out, what you'd then do and how you would finance such a change. Attend to your support network so you have some people who'd have your back and support you through such a big upheaval to your life. Devour everything you can find on helping your kids (if any) through such a - theoretical - event. Then, with that life plan* in your pocket, you have an alternative. Then Brother imstrongernow , the questions just start getting harder. But those are matters for another day, AFTER you have constructed your alternative. Welcome to the zoo Brother. PS - "how long did you stay in denial ?" - you asked. Best part of 2 decades for me. Got out in 2009. Side bar - thanks Sister elynne for that life plan* thing.
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Post by bballgirl on May 11, 2018 22:43:50 GMT -5
I was very depressed because of my SM to the point that around 2012 I was having suicidal thoughts. I was in the fog for about 20 years until I found EP the old forum and married for 23 years. I got a divorce in 2016. Focus on yourself and have a plan.
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Post by GeekGoddess on May 11, 2018 23:31:55 GMT -5
Denial- My marriage was completely celibate about 3 years. We had been married for 14 years prior to that. We’d lived together for around 6-8 years prior to that. My denial of “a basic mismatch” reaches back most the way, I believe.
Everyone has their own journey & their own pace. My Ex got prostate cancer & much of the “pure celibacy” phase had to do with that. But I’m not obligated to stay in a situation which was killing my spirit. Out around 3 years (or, a little over 2 yrs from the final decree).
I’d suggest a counselor or therapist for yourself too. This group was a real eye opener for me, but I did benefit a lot from a counselor to help me get my own thinking straight on what I wanted. I got a lot of clarity from that.
Good luck navigating. And - welcome.
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Post by imstrongernow on May 11, 2018 23:43:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses Baza and bballgirl.
No, unfortunately not. Reading that simple statement, that it's her depression to manage brings up so many complex emotions in me. I know that is true, but I have such a huge need to rescue. I'm realizing I'm not going to be able to do this without my own therapy and a support system.
We've been together 12 years, married for 10, SM for about three years. The first three to four years were actually darn good. It's really the one thing that still gives me hope for our working through this.
Wow baza and bballgirl, 20 years. I can completely see how that's possible, and it scares the crap out of me.
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Post by imstrongernow on May 11, 2018 23:52:43 GMT -5
Thanks GeekGoddess - "Getting my own thinking straight on what i want". That's great advice, and what I need. For me I think it's also about getting the courage to express what I want without guilt and fear. I'm not sure why I have such an issue with that....
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Post by mescaline on May 12, 2018 0:41:46 GMT -5
I think in my heart I'm still in denial, my head knows the truth though. There wasn't really a specific point when I came to recognition on the SM though, more a gradual realisation over the past year or so, though in truth my M hasn't been particularly sexual for about nine years (since first born was conceived). i suppose, my head is now over ruling my heart thanks to ILIASM, and I'm preparing, emotionally for the break.
I hear exactly what you're saying about the fear imstrongernow, I'm exactly the same. Essentially I think it's down to conflict avoidance. I'm pretty passive usually and don't really mind doing stuff/not doing stuff if it keeps others happy. Tackling this a SM problem is going to create conflict, a big conflict! One that could end up with divorce, loss of home, family and limited access to children. Plus it's not just you, it's others who are impacted - your partner and children. So I think that is what is keeping me from pushing forward.
The guilt and fear is also pretty normal for people like us, I'm sure it can be traced back to loads of things in our lives, but that doesn't necessarily help the here-and-now, and I know it is something that I need to get over. Something to be working on while biding my time and prepping for the fallout, just another self-improvement activity that will pay dividends in the future is the way I look at it.
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Post by ironhamster on May 12, 2018 1:02:42 GMT -5
Thanks GeekGoddess - "Getting my own thinking straight on what i want". That's great advice, and what I need. For me I think it's also about getting the courage to express what I want without guilt and fear. I'm not sure why I have such an issue with that.... My wife had depression as an excuse, as well as a host of others, and I accepted them until that Fear Obligation and Guilt thing was overwhelmed by my own unhappiness. None of the excuses or even all of them was sufficient to explain why for a quarter century she never once wanted to fuck me. So, how long did it take me? I think I knew it was a mess even when I proposed, and it took me twenty-five years to accept the hopelessness of the situation.
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Post by elynne on May 12, 2018 2:43:05 GMT -5
H and I have been married for 11 years now. I opened my eyes to our problems last June - so just under a year ago.
We’ve had sex less than 10 times per year during most of our marriage. Some years only once or twice. I always thought if I lose the pregnancy weight we’d have more sex (so I did), if I just kept the house cleaner (so I do), if I just... I ran out of things under my control to change.
I don’t know if this makes our relationship typical or atypical for a SM, but I think h actually likes sex. But it’s more important to him to withhold affection, to put me down and criticize me, to control the finances, to maintain emotional distance and to ensure he always has a ‘one up’ position in the relationship.
We’ve just had a week and a half vacation (kids from school and h from work). I really worked to seduce him. We had sex a few days in a row. It was nice, we were kinder and more patient with each other. Things were going relatively well. The following morning he gets up quickly, absolutely no touching, no time for me to seduce him into morning sex. He proceeds to spend the day nit picking, trying to start arguments and being generally unpleasant.
So much for any closeness. It’s as if he can’t help himself from sabotaging it.
I’ve met with a lawyer. I’ll be in decent shape financially after the divorce, but being able to pay my attorney will be a struggle so I’m saving in a secret account. If I start to save in my regular account H finds reasons to transfer money out of my account and spend it.
Anyway, the long and short of it, married 10 years with a slide into more and more dysfunctional dynamics. I put full blame and responsibility for all our problems on my shoulders as did h. Then last June, I was at a benefit gala where a handsome single man 7 years my junior tried to seduce me. I dodged his advances despite strong feelings. Went back to my hotel alone. The next morning back at home, and over the next days I put all of my effort into reconnecting with my husband. I wasn’t just rejected; if he found himself starting to be aroused he would push me roughly away.
That’s when I realized how serious our problems were and that it wasn’t something that just keeping the house cleaner was going to solve.
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Post by h on May 12, 2018 5:00:09 GMT -5
I've been married for almost 10 years and it had been nearly sexless the entire time. We waited for marriage like we were taught (huge mistake) so I didn't realize what I was getting into until after she turned me down on our wedding night. A little over a year ago I started being more vocal about my unhappiness and last spring I found this group. I'm still currently in the "stay and try to fix it" camp and there has been some improvement but it remains to be seen whether there will be any lasting change. The changes so far are in the right direction but still not enough to come close to meeting my needs so I'm not sure if she will ever be willing or able to maintain a regular sex life. It took finding this forum to snap me out of my FOG. Even though I have chosen to stay for now, I no longer feel guilty about the possibility of leaving.
While I'm trying to work on improving our sex life, I'm also helping my W improve her career. This will help us both to pay down debts and help our future if we stay together. It will also put us on equal income brackets helping me if we divorce. Many of my decisions now are based on this dual purpose thinking. I don't know what the future holds but I'm preparing for both options.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 12, 2018 6:43:13 GMT -5
"I'm more likely to commit suicide than initiate sex with you" I just cannot see myself living like this the rest of my life. I have lots of guilt just thinking about "abandoning" someone struggling with a real issue. (Depression) So when did you know? or should I say how long of suffering in a SM did it take you to be honest with yourself? Greetings! It sounds like YOU are the one struggling with "white horse syndrome". You have been raised and conditioned to be a non stop giver, a fixer, the night on a white horse that rides in and saves the damsel in distress. There's a problem with these fairy tales. The damsel is not in distress, she is free to leave her "top of the tower, prison" anytime she likes, the only one keeping her there is herself ( and you). Instead it gives her, power, control, attention, and zero responsibility for her actions. In her eyes, whatever happens to you while trying to rescue her is irrelevant. You're a commodity. There's always another to come to her "rescue". Let that sink in for a while. ....Then think about how you respond to bad service from a repair service or at a restaurant. You choose not to go back there again, and you find better service. You paid for it, you expect it you demand it, you are the boss, it's a two way street. A huge life lesson for me recently is looking at my problems from a giving and receiving (taking) perspective. 1). My divorce was final, it was moving weekend, I had movers coming that weekend. I had an overwhelming amount of things to pack and move, before the movers came to move the "big stuff". I could have definitely used the help. I have a mens bible study , they could help me. One major, major problem? I had to ASK to receive help, NOT offer my help to someone else. I had to consider myself, and my needs. I had to put myself first. Another problem ? Stereotyping. Men don't ask for help they are expected to give it. Men move the big heavy stuff, women pack and coordinate all the little things. For some this is simple, for me I was horrified! I also had to be in control, I had to be a leader, a coordinator. People where going to be looking to me for direction, and guidance, I was going to have to be a manager and a skilled communicator. ( pack this, don't take those, move this, put that over there, take that apart, leave those together, etc....) I must have helped 100 people move in my life, so why was it so hard for me to need and ask help from others? It seemed so much easier to just do it all myself. Fortunately, I emailed my mens group and reached out for help. I RECEIVED the help that was needed. Much of my worries about directing, coordinating, leading, turned out to be very few. In a matter of 45 minutes it was done. The same event would have taken me 2 more days. In reality my RECEIVING (taking) was GIVING. I gave our mens group it's first opportunity to put words into action. To meet outside our safe zone, and get to know each other more personally. I watched and listened to the other men meet each other. We had a new person there, he got to ride with the other men and ask them questions and talk about things outside of our group setting. These men got to see my old dysfunctional home, and see my new home. The y continue to "give" and offer to do things for me, and with me. I give back to them by "receiving" their help and coordinating our meetings. They like getting away from their dull marriage and being with the other men. I hear it all the time, " lets go fishing together, when are you going to use that boat of yours?" Someone has to "receive", by "giving" an opportunity. Here's a fun word, "submit". I had to submit, and be vulnerable by asking for help. I had to admit that I could not do this alone, that I needed extra hands and advice. I gave that opportunity, and it paid off for everyone. (my teens heard that those men came and helped me.) My ex got to see that I am not alone, that I am able to communicate and get along quite well with other people. Now to take this full circle back to you! Once you start setting boundaries, once you start receiving (taking back your identity and taking back your joy) you will be giving the best rescue possible for your wife. The fact that she needs to take the risk, submit that she needs help, for her to finally be responsible for her actions, and that her actions have devastating consequences to others (you) and that by helping herself she will be giving to others around her.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 12, 2018 6:56:30 GMT -5
I stayed in denial, for 20 yrs. Different levels of denial. 10 yrs of it was putting my head in the sand, "happy wife happy life " syndrome, and "keeping the peace" also, "for the good of the family" and last " I'm such a nice guy".
The last 5 yrs was a different story. A period of "turning things around", realizing my ex refused any help, any responsibility, and will always need to be in full control. Submitting is a very short lived ,very surface only event for her, only if it leads to more long term control.
She wanted and received full control of a rather large ship, that we built separately (her half, my half) and was coming apart in the middle, due to her keeping the rudder in one direction only, hers. You can't cross an ocean that way. Instead you end up going around in a huge circle.
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Post by nyartgal on May 12, 2018 10:48:22 GMT -5
It's a good question! I was with my ex 9.5 years, married for 7 of those. In my mind, when I finally hit the wall enough times toward the end, it had been terrific in the beginning and was only later that the sex (and other aspects of the marriage) fell apart. But after I kicked him out (about a week after I found the old EP ILIASM site), I found an old journal entry I had written on a folded piece of paper from when we were engaged. In it, I talked about how he wasn't pulling his weight with the wedding planning, and that he seemed so stressed all the time, and "as a result" we were barely having sex. So in reality, all the signs were there before we exchanged vows.
I had many moments in the last few years when I felt I couldn't take it anymore. Finally, I wound up having a brief unplanned affair which blew my mind in every way and made me realize that no, I wasn't repulsive---far from it. The sex was incredible and I knew at that point I couldn't live with a passive aggressive husband any longer. A few months later I told him to leave. A few months after that I met my husband and we've been happily married since Feb 2014 with two amazing kids. Incredible what can happen when you get out of the SM mindfuck!!
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Post by choosinghappy on May 12, 2018 13:43:27 GMT -5
I agree that this is now the time to focus on yourself. It sounds like you have come to full awareness of the truth of your situation. Are you willing to accept the truth? If so, then it's time to make a decision. I personally think the two hardest parts of this are 1) no longer lying to yourself, and 2) making a decision whether to stay and work on it (with or without outsourcing) or to leave. It seems you're right in the middle of part 1. It's not easy. For me, I started realizing the truth of my situation when I googled "sexless marriage" and joined this forum (June 2017). Since then, it took a bit of time to stop lying to myself. Then it took a bit more time to decide what I wanted to do. (I went back and forth on that for a while.) But after taking all the steps baza suggested in his reply, and seeing how a divorce would shake out for me, I realized it was doable. And the fear dissipated. And I realized that despite the inevitable hardships that are sure to come, I am starting to look forward to my "new life". I now have an exit plan in place and will be filing just about one year after joining this forum. (We have been married 6 years, together 11.) I personally think being brutally honest with yourself is the key. And choosing not to live your life according to your fears. For you, imstrongernow , some of that fear likely can be attributed to fear of how your W will (or won't) handle it if you leave. The obligation and the guilt is hard. I can relate to some of that too. But don't forget that this is YOUR one life. You need to live it for yourself. And if that includes staying, then great. And if that includes leaving, then great. Just be honest with yourSELF. And: Welcome.
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Post by imstrongernow on May 12, 2018 18:28:22 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for your honest replies. Something that strikes me is the honesty here. It's quite refreshing.
I've made a couple of decisions over the last 12 hours. The first is that I'm not quite ready to thrown in the towel. I understand the current path I am on will lead nowhere good, and what I will need to do (if) when the time comes. Full realization of this was brought into the light this morning during one of those soul wrenching cries that erupt from somewhere deep within. The reason I'm not ready to walk away yet is that I have contributed to this situation also.
It will be of no suprise to Greatcoastal to learn that I grew up in an abusive alcoholic family where I was the oldest child that kept things together. His evaluation of my situation cut deep. (Thank you for that, I needed to hear it) I thought I had dealt with most of the effects of that, but clearly I have not. I believe it to be the case that I chose someone damaged that I needed to rescue. The further truth may be also that I have contributed to the situation to KEEP her in a situation so I could perpetually rescue. I am shockingly skilled at being passive aggressive because long ago I told myself that outward assertiveness or aggression was never acceptable.
The second thing I decided is to schedule an appointment with a therapist. She had a cancellation Monday, so this is moving fast. My therapy goals (this time) will be to really discover what I want, and to learn how to express those wants and needs in a healthy way. I also have more boundary work to do. Something specific this time will be boundaries with the W. That she take an active role in handling her own shit and we find a way to support each other through our individual and joint journey. Any indication that that is not happening, and I'm out.
I realized something else, that the sex I desire is so deeply about more than X times per month. Obligatory mechanical sex is something I cant accept regardless of the frequency. I want to be with someone who is pursuing much of the same things I am...being alive and engaged. Being connected with themselves and the people around them. Actively participating in moving toward awe and joy. Experiencing the full range of human emotions, Searching for purpose and meaning... (Is this even realistic??)
On a lighter note, one of my neighbors took delivery of his new boat yesterday and invited me to come out for the inaugural launch. I eagerly said yes and spent a wonderful morning on the water.
Any Comments or feedback, I welcome.
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