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Post by darktippedrose on Mar 9, 2018 3:28:45 GMT -5
What exactly is DARVO? I've been reading it on the site. yes, I know it means denial, etc etc
but what does it really mean, in the sm context?
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Post by elynne on Mar 9, 2018 3:36:26 GMT -5
What exactly is DARVO? I've been reading it on the site. yes, I know it means denial, etc etc but what does it really mean, in the sm context? I think greatcoastal can answer this one. I grew up with it as a child, am replaying those patterns in my marriage and have a really hard time spotting it!
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 9, 2018 7:48:33 GMT -5
What exactly is DARVO? I've been reading it on the site. yes, I know it means denial, etc etc but what does it really mean, in the sm context? shrink4men.com/2011/01/19/presto-change-o-darvo-deny-attack-and-reverse-victim-and-offender/Here's an example in the context of your SM. (I am gathering this from my recollection of your previous posts) Denial - In your H's mind there is no sexlessness allowed for you to even consider. There is no problem. Argue - He is right you are wrong. End of discussion. He will even laugh at your problem of wanting , needing, and expecting sex. Reversal- You are the problem. You are supposed to just accept that sex from him with respect will not happen, his way only in everything. Victim - If only you would just cave to his demands, and allow him to have sex with anyone else but you. You are being disrespectful. Offender- You are supposed to submit to what ever he wants, ( sex with others but not you) no matter what the truth or facts are, those are irrelevant. By not submitting to him YOU are offensive. It's all brainwashing, and manipulative control. He uses it in all other aspects of your marriage including his behavior with the children.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 9, 2018 8:19:53 GMT -5
Yes itme , the article does talk about DARVO being a good thing, that it does have it's place when you are being forward ,honest, and truly correcting someone. Correcting someone can be like "tough love" , similar to disciplining a child. Here is an example, of my response, for when my teenage daughter continues to not fill the dogs food and water. Deny - No, you do not just, forget. You certainly can remember to play on the computer. Argue - You are reminded, daily, you walk right past it several times every morning, you spend your morning holding the dog. Reversal- How would you feel if no one brought you groceries, or took you to see your friends and left you with nothing? Victim - Others should not have to perform your responsibility. If you are ever going to have a dog yourself you need to learn this now. Offender- If you continue to do this you will no longer be allowed to....... I am getting tired of constantly reminding you. In your example that you gave, your W manages to avoid and reverse the entire subject of sex. Instead she lists all her SERVICE that she performs. That is time to calmly, use her words in your favor. " You do kook , clean, press my pants- and raise YOUR children, OUR children. The thanks you WOULD get, would be sex and intimacy from me, with me, allowing me to then thank you and praise you physically through touch along with words of affirmation for all that you do. However you totally deny and dismiss YOUR PROBLEM of reversing and avoiding the sex and intimacy. That's A LOT to have to say in the heat of a loosing battle with a finger pointer! The sad reality is that no matter how correct, or true your facts, arguments and statements are, they are going to land on deaf ears. All on purpose. What is the purpose? So they can continue to live their blameless life and deny that their manipulative controlling behavior exists, along with their fears of any submissiveness that is required in sex and intimacy. You will continue to be ignored/invalidated because your W has long ago convinced herself that it is not her problem or her concern, and that she does not see the need for sex/intimacy.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 9, 2018 8:36:27 GMT -5
Something important to remember with any psychological terminology (DARVO, narcissist, borderline, co-dependent, love bombing,gaslighting, etc,) is that we are only separated by a matter of degrees. Meaning, everyone has "something."
I get turned off by psych labeling because I feel it has a person focused too much on others and not on her or him self.
Sure, it's useful to see manipulative ways passive aggressives, narcs, etc. might try to control you, but it's even more important to recognize such traits in one's self.
And then, it's also important to know our own perspective might muddy things up and we may mis-label. Example... this morning my husband texted me from work, "I love you baby. The dishes are clean. I hope you have a wonderful Friday. I love you!!" I actually felt myself get a little prickly being told the dishwasher needed to be emptied, when he could do it himself. Then I saw how he turned my Keurig on for me and was reminded he's my husband, not my ex! He told me dishes are clean because my favorite coffee cup was in the dishwasher, clean, not to passively-aggressively suggest I empty it. Same behavior as my ex, um, minus the love you and have a great day part, different agendas.
I replied with kindness and love and gratitude, our relationship continues to be nourished. It could have gone a different way had I stayed stuck in past trauma, looking for the worse.
Anyway, I just think in all sincerity we need to be careful when diagnosing others and focus on ourselves. Yes, I'm a hypocrite because I diagnose my husband's ex as a passive aggressive. She definitely behaves passive aggressively a lot, but I shouldn't assume it's because she's evil. She's doing the best she knows. When we know better, we do better. She doesn't know better. Ha.. I am allowed that, right? lol
Anyway, just rambling thoughts. Have a good day, everyone.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 9, 2018 9:23:21 GMT -5
@windsister You bring up a good point about labeling.
I would like to share with you (and everyone else) a page from the book "Say Goodbye to Crazy" (chapter 10) see what you think about this approach.
"Once upon a time, in a land far, far away..." (I added that) Many authors and experts in this field will caution you not to use labels regarding Crazy. This is unrealistic. "ex-wife" is a label. "stepmom" is a label. Human beings use labels and diagnoses as a mental shorthand to understand the world we live in and simplify our lives.
Some psychologists and other mental health professionals will tell you not to use diagnostic labels because you do not have the education and training to make such judgments. If you have a reasonable amount of intelligence, have read the DSM criteria for for the group of personality disorders from which Crazy is known to typically suffer, and it matches your experience of Crazy as observed over time, odds are there is probably some validity to your layperson's diagnosis.
Some mental health professionals will tell you not to use diagnostic labels because some people use them as weopons and a form of name-calling. These same professionals also deliberately avoid making diagnoses of personality disorders for a number of reasons - namely, liability, insurance won't pay for it and/or they don't want to loose a client. Crazy may also evade formal diagnosis because she/he can be quite skilled at fooling a therapist!As you know they are adept at portraying themselves as a misunderstood, long-suffering victim.
Crazy can and will turn any hint of being labelled around on you if given the opportunity. It is common for people who are forced to deal with Crazy to have the magical and often misguided belief that telling Crazy you believe they suffer from a personality disorder will cause them to have an epiphany, see the error of their ways and get help. So should you tell Crazy they are crazy? The answer is "NO." There are so many ways for that to go sideways!
Crazy will not accept your ideas, or your help,and you will be on the receiving end of the attack to end all attacks. They will come at you with all guns blazing.
Fixing Crazy is neither your concern nor your problem. telling them they are crazy and encouraging them to seek help is wanting to fix them. You can't. So don't. Don't waste your time in a battle you will not win. YOU know they are Crazy. That's what matters- the knowledge you have and how you use it to put up boundaries that allow you to have a peaceful life.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 9, 2018 10:01:24 GMT -5
I respect you, GC.
I am sensitive to this because I work with people who are labeled and it gets frustrating when old-schoolers in the field stick to the label and lose sight of the humanity of my clients. Maybe I am speaking of different things, but when I see labels I get a little rustled because WE ALL have "disorders" of sorts, we are only separated by a mere matter of degrees as far as "extremeness" of the "disorder." I can relate to some of my clients more than others because I suffer from the same hurts and pains they do and could go full out ... insert diagnoses here... if I didn't stay aware of myself.
We all suffer from cognitive dissonance to a degree. It's easier to see the faults of others rather than our own. I am saying at what point is someone a "narcissist?" Why does it need to be so extreme? Why not note the behavior, without labeling them? At what point are they truly "CRAZY?" Humans are just humans - with a wide range of behaviors, tendencies, personalities, etc., why does everything need to be a "disorder?" What magic pill would make us all alike and to what purpose would we even want such an existence? I think it's the Facebook articles that are driving me batty that rally for labeling and diagnosing every type of personality as something that needs to be fixed.
I am just always going to remind us to look in the mirror. What are we allowing in our life, what are we attracting? Admittedly, this thread was likely not the place to share these thoughts, but they have been so heavy on my mind I had to let them loose. Sorry for that.
According to what you share, I am the Crazy you must avoid based on all I just wrote above. I haven't been labeled, I am thankful for that. I also don't like to label others, but I do note behaviors they show me and decide if I want to accept them or walk away.
Within these boards everyone displays some "personality disorders" to varying degrees. Victim mentality is also very high.
Personal responsibility for the self is much more empowering.
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 9, 2018 10:16:44 GMT -5
I find it amusing how a professional psychologist's judgment after spending one hour with someone on their best behavior has more information than a person married to the patient for 20 years....
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 9, 2018 10:30:19 GMT -5
I respect you too WS!
Perhaps this needs it's own thread?
Working in your field must be a different situation, however it can still apply to your's and mine everyday circumstances.
Just like ,I definitely have learned through my recent two years of divorce to look at myself and how I even label myself. I have also learned to read how I answer things. To answer the question first. More "yes or no", then go into the details. Like you said " what are we attracting". I relate that to "look at who my friends are, and who will they be in the future, and what kind of friend /lover am I?"
So let me go on to say that I like labels. I think they have their place. Heck I certainly label myself, single, father, skinny, co-dependent, passive, just to name a few!
You, my friend, claim to have "rambling thoughts" I don't ever see that! There's no need to label yourself as a rambler, that's degrading.
I truly hesitated, a long time to label my now divorced wife as a narcissist. Manipulative controller seemed to "fit" better. The label helped me to move forward ,forgive, understand, and heal. Sometimes you learn to understand by realizing, "it is what it is, I can not change it. I can offer pitty, but I need to distance myself from a demoralizing environment".
Remember the times on here when everyone gets to take a test? What type personality are you? That's labeling, and yet it gets high volumes of participation.
lastly, for now, there's going into the online dating world. That will require a ton of labeling!! Also I have had to label my whole divorce down to a sentence or two.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 9, 2018 11:01:43 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your perspective, greatcoastal. I think I do tend to feel everything is my fault and I must have something inherently wrong with me (a lot). Okay, so labels have a place. But I do hate using them with my clients (adults with disabilities). If it leads to accepting someone is who they are - then fine. And you are right, we can't change others or force them to do anything -- ever. So either accept it and stay or accept it and leave. (or accept and stay and cheat... ).
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Post by Lithium92 on Mar 9, 2018 13:01:35 GMT -5
The difference between everyone doing splitting, or emotional blackmail or whatever potentially diagnosable trait, and a diagnosis is there has to be a cluster of traits that are pronounced enough for long enough to cause significant problems. That's what the DSM says.
Actually having someone in your life who is diagnosable makes it bloody obvious that we're not all a bit borderline, or all a bit narc or whatever. Assimilating the extremes of damaging behaviour into 'normal' devalues the normal range of human responses, and the difficulties of people with actual conditions, at the same time.
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Post by darktippedrose on Mar 10, 2018 2:49:56 GMT -5
a therapist once told me my husband had anti-social personality disorder.
my husband has called me a narcissist, usually after confronting him about having sex with others. It's not all about me.
I have question my own brand of crazy.
I know I'm insecure. I have a bit of low self-esteem. I'm shy and scared of almost everything lol. I also had a toxic and co-dependent relationship with my mother, as taking care of an addict IS co-dependent.
I never really had any older women to help me out in the beginning of my marriage with my first real relationship.
my grandma tells me I'm a good wife and mother. That my husband isn't right in the head. that most men are NOT like that at all.
My being sheltered for most of my childhood and then being thrust into an independent life was probably not very helpful. It probably left me way too vulnerable to predators of all kinds.
So I have thought about how I ended up here. My relatives think I roll over over everything. I don't.
I pick and choose my battles.
My husband sees marriages as a business contract. He doesn't like to bring love into it. He laughs at the idea of love and romance. Most people who see me, ask me, HOW did you guys end up married. Even my step-daughters lol.
And yet my husband gets mad when they say I don't look like the type to be married to someone who looks like him. Hehehe.
Just today he told me, that religiously he didn't think that he had to provide anything more than food and clothes. As oppposed to most of the world that views that men have to provide all unless she gives him permission not to.
For some reason, I just think this is just another validation so he doesn't feel guilty that I pay all the billz.
Another mind game at play.
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