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Post by baza on Feb 13, 2018 23:02:37 GMT -5
What's your main fear here Brother 2old2startover ?
The necessary straight up discussion - or the probable outcome of said straight up discussion ?
If it is (as I am guessing) mainly the probable outcome that is of the most concern to you, and that the probable feared outcome is your marriage collapsing, then it might ease your anxiety if you made some assumptions and worked from a worst case scenario backward in a theoretical sense.
What if you - theoretically - assumed that you'll end up divorced. If you knew how that would shake out for you in your jurisdiction, you might find that it is not an insoluble problem. Seeing a lawyer in your jurisdiction would be an indicated action for you.
What if you - theoretically - had an exit strategy to end the marriage in orderly fashion and a plan for how your life might move forward afterward. That might also no longer be seen as an insurmountable problem.
What if you - theoretically -had a solid support network behind you, perhaps including a skilled therapist to help you manage the emotional side of things. Might that then appear to be a speed hump rather than a roadblock.
What if - theoretically - you had a strategy to help manage any minor children involved transition through such an event. Might that also help with the worry of this aspect of the problem.
What if - theoretically - you regarded the collapse of your marriage as a manageable matter ?
Maybe, with the above matters addressed - theoretically - the fear might be alleviated somewhat, and you could approach the straight up discussion from a position of strength and certainty. And from that position you might be able to negotiate an acceptable deal with your missus.
Note - this is NOT a suggestion to charge off to the exit. It IS a suggestion that you diligently prepare for a worst case* scenario so you can negotiate with greatly reduced fear levels.
*it is possible during the above - theoretical - things that you might come to regard divorcing as something different to a "worst case scenario". It may be staying in your marriage that is the actual "worst case scenario"
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Post by lwoetin on Feb 14, 2018 0:41:27 GMT -5
I was watching half Pike event this evening and one guy had to get carried on a stretcher. Last Olympics, I remember this guy who did this move which he called YOLO. He pulled it off, You Only Live Once. You may not have a solution now but you can't live like this. Don't despair. (Yup, I don't have a solution either.)
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Post by saarinista on Feb 17, 2018 1:50:00 GMT -5
There are too many bad marriages out there, creating heaps of misery that need not be.
No one "wants" a divorce, yet sometimes-and I'm not saying that's the case in this situation-it's the only solution. That said, I get frustrated about our society's sometimes extreme anti-divorce views. Demonizing those who get divorces or cheat-yet not acknowledging that bad marriages happen, that people are human and have needs that are powerful and normal, and that sometimes, people end up in marriages that for whatever reason are no longer viable. If one or both partners can't or refuse to change, is it REALLY better just to hunker down and stick it out until someone dies?
I used to think so. Just stick to that promise, realize that nothing is perfect, and gut it out, come what may.
But my views have changed. Good grief. We need new solutions. This broken world needs more love and honesty, not just seething anger, the same old same old, and a bunch of pretending that things are okay when they suck! There is such a thing as a civil divorce. People change. People make mistakes. So what!? I guess a lot of people feel like they need to pretend that things are perfect, that they are infallible, that they need to keep up appearances, etc. What a bunch of hooey. Get real.
Just saying.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 7:41:56 GMT -5
This broken world needs more love and honesty, not just seething anger, the same old same old, and a bunch of pretending that things are okay when they suck! There is such a thing as a civil divorce. People change. People make mistakes. So what!? I guess a lot of people feel like they need to pretend that things are perfect, that they are infallible, that they need to keep up appearances, etc. What a bunch of hooey. Get real. Just saying. Amen! Our society has pathologized divorce. Anyone familiar with the Kaiser ACES study on the effect of childhood trauma on a person’s physical health? It’s great study, but it counts divorce as a childhood trauma which is completely misleading because marriage itself can be a childhood trauma. In other words, children can be equally traumatized by a bad marriage as by a divorce. I agree that we need new solutions and that people tout staying together as the end all/be all. But is it really best for the kids and for society if an individual is depressed and becoming unhealthy mentally or physically because of their marriage? I don’t think so.
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Post by snowman12345 on Feb 18, 2018 19:31:03 GMT -5
Ya'll are right. It really boils down to me speaking up. I don't ever anticipate her saying anything, because in her mind nothing's wrong. I just don't want it to come down like a ton a bricks... after eight years, why now? I've hinted on numerous occasions, but I don't take hints well either. I have been painfully shy during most of my life, so bringing up a subject as delicate as this is not my strong suit... and actually it's not hers either. She's the strong silent type and getting her to talk about anything is often like pulling teeth, even with relatively benign subjects. But I need to find a way, and therein lies the problem with me. I don't want to damage what we have, but I can't continue as it is without breaking a few eggs. The burden of change is on me. Heavy sigh! You are getting close - she has the marriage she wants - everything but the sex. You can talk to her about it if it eases your mind; but as you have probably read in many, many posts here - knowing why she does not desire sex with you makes absolutely no difference in the outcome. You have to ask yourself will she go back to the loving intimate spouse she once was? Will you settle for passionless sex if she is willing to go that far? What is it you want and what are the chances of that happening? It is hard when you've had a relationship that seemingly had it all for a long time and then have it snatched away. Believe me, I know. But pussyfooting around the issue will not help. Practice what you want to say. When you boil it down it's about how the rejection/refusal makes you feel. Start there. Good luck to you.
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Post by snowman12345 on Feb 18, 2018 19:42:50 GMT -5
This broken world needs more love and honesty, not just seething anger, the same old same old, and a bunch of pretending that things are okay when they suck! There is such a thing as a civil divorce. People change. People make mistakes. So what!? I guess a lot of people feel like they need to pretend that things are perfect, that they are infallible, that they need to keep up appearances, etc. What a bunch of hooey. Get real. Just saying. Amen! Our society has pathologized divorce. Anyone familiar with the Kaiser ACES study on the effect of childhood trauma on a person’s physical health? It’s great study, but it counts divorce as a childhood trauma which is completely misleading because marriage itself can be a childhood trauma. In other words, children can be equally traumatized by a bad marriage as by a divorce. I agree that we need new solutions and that people tout staying together as the end all/be all. But is it really best for the kids and for society if an individual is depressed and becoming unhealthy mentally or physically because of their marriage? I don’t think so. I know in my parents divorce, I felt grief, but I also had an overwhelming sense of relief. The tension in that house was palpable. The divorce happened in my late teens and was the impetus for me striking out on my own. In some ways it was bad, but in other more developmental ways it was very good for me. But anecdotal evidence should not be construed as an overall picture of the way divorce effects most people. I do agree with you that sometimes marriages are more traumatic than divorces can be.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 19, 2018 1:27:38 GMT -5
This broken world needs more love and honesty, not just seething anger, the same old same old, and a bunch of pretending that things are okay when they suck! There is such a thing as a civil divorce. People change. People make mistakes. So what!? I guess a lot of people feel like they need to pretend that things are perfect, that they are infallible, that they need to keep up appearances, etc. What a bunch of hooey. Get real. Just saying. Amen! Our society has pathologized divorce. Anyone familiar with the Kaiser ACES study on the effect of childhood trauma on a person’s physical health? It’s great study, but it counts divorce as a childhood trauma which is completely misleading because marriage itself can be a childhood trauma. In other words, children can be equally traumatized by a bad marriage as by a divorce. I agree that we need new solutions and that people tout staying together as the end all/be all. But is it really best for the kids and for society if an individual is depressed and becoming unhealthy mentally or physically because of their marriage? I don’t think so. Sheesh. Life is childhood trauma. Also I have the outlandish theory that happiness of parents matters too. This whole thing of staying together for the kids has gotten a little out of hand in my opinion. If two people are in a bad marriage that can't be fixed it's sometimes better have a civil divorce. Most kids would rather have happy parents than angry, seething, passive aggressive ones. They know that the parents are only staying married for them and that puts a lot of burden on kids too. I mean,this essentially puts the kids in the position of being responsible for your staying in misery. Not a big upper.
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Post by solodriver on Feb 19, 2018 1:55:02 GMT -5
"If you say nothing, odds are you will never have sex with your wife again."
That's exactly what has happened to me. At this point I live with it, because the other option is to divorce, which may very well happen also. The only reason I'm still here is financial only.
But my realty is I will never have sex with my wife again. That is a very sad thing to live with.
I remember the first time we had sex in 1989, and the very last time in 2001. Of course I remember a lot of wonderful times in between those years. But I have to not think of them too much because it's too painful to think I will never be intimate with her again.
If you don't address it, you will be like me and I'm 58 right now.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 23, 2018 3:43:34 GMT -5
"If you say nothing, odds are you will never have sex with your wife again."
That's exactly what has happened to me. At this point I live with it, because the other option is to divorce, which may very well happen also. The only reason I'm still here is financial only.
But my realty is I will never have sex with my wife again. That is a very sad thing to live with.
I remember the first time we had sex in 1989, and the very last time in 2001. Of course I remember a lot of wonderful times in between those years. But I have to not think of them too much because it's too painful to think I will never be intimate with her again.
If you don't address it, you will be like me and I'm 58 right now.
I'm 57. 0 sex in 8 years. Is this it? this is not what I signed on for solodriver. So many miserable merriages that need to end, including mine. Either that, or we all need to have affairs I hope all of us experience love and intimacy again before we die. what good is money if you're not in sync with your partner?
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Post by northstarmom on Feb 23, 2018 6:53:23 GMT -5
“I'm 57. 0 sex in 8 years. Is this it? this is not what I signed on for solodriver. “
I was 69, 0 sex in 8 years. The last sex had been a quick, unsatisfying fuck at 3 am when he fumbled over me, waking me up. I had been married 33 years when I filed for divorce. I did not find EP, the precursor to iliasm until a month after my divorce was final.
I’m now 66, 5 years into a loving, happy, sex filled relationship with a man whom I had known for years before my divorce but never had considered as a romantic partner. He is the love of my life, sharing the same values and love languages (touch, words of affirmation) I have.
When I decided to divorce, I never expected to find love again. I hoped to have sex - even bad sex- one more time. I knew I’d be happier permanently alone than remaining with my refuser.
We get but one chance at life. You know what to expect if you stay married. If that seems better than leaping into the unknown stay.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 23, 2018 23:38:06 GMT -5
“I'm 57. 0 sex in 8 years. Is this it? this is not what I signed on for solodriver. “ I was 69, 0 sex in 8 years. The last sex had been a quick, unsatisfying fuck at 3 am when he fumbled over me, waking me up. I had been married 33 years when I filed for divorce. I did not find EP, the precursor to iliasm until a month after my divorce was final. I’m now 66, 5 years into a loving, happy, sex filled relationship with a man whom I had known for years before my divorce but never had considered as a romantic partner. He is the love of my life, sharing the same values and love languages (touch, words of affirmation) I have. When I decided to divorce, I never expected to find love again. I hoped to have sex - even bad sex- one more time. I knew I’d be happier permanently alone than remaining with my refuser. We get but one chance at life. You know what to expect if you stay married. If that seems better than leaping into the unknown stay. Wow, northstarmom your new love is really great! Not only are you having bountiful, wonderful sex, but he's made you younger! (I think you meant to say you were 59, 0 sex in 8 years, not 69..;-) Anyway, I've foillowed your messages because I'm inspired that you found love later in life, as I would hope to do. There are no guarantees, but it's a pretty sure bet that if I stay in this marriage it's not going to get better, despite periodic bouts of therapy, begging, cajoling and a several year period where I simply resigned myself to being emotionally dead until I was physically dead too. I now know I can't do that.
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Post by baza on Feb 24, 2018 0:46:16 GMT -5
FWIW Sister saarinista , (and this is based on 9 years of observations on this site and its' precursor) your risk of getting out but then being in a worse place is minimal to non existent. Over this 9 year period I have never seen a member who got out return here and say - "well that was a huge mistake and I so wish I was back in my ILIASM shithole". Invariably, escapees tend to say pretty much uniformly - "I wish I had got out earlier". And it appears that ILIASM escapees end up in greatly enhanced lives, quite often in new relationships as well in the longer term. That's what the firsthand evidence shows, overwhelmingly. (It is also true that the "getting out" part of the deal is just about guaranteed to be extraordinarily painful and be one of the worst times in your life, short term) This is not to suggest that you ought make a headlong charge to the exit. It is to suggest that your risk of leaving is highly, HIGHLY, unlikely to result in you being unhappier, longer term, than you are right now.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 24, 2018 1:26:05 GMT -5
baza Points noted and I agree. No worries about a headlong charge. I'm deliberative to the extreme. Besides, moving is such a hassle. Thank you for the encouragement and for sharing your experiences. Cheers!
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Post by solodriver on Feb 24, 2018 3:56:10 GMT -5
"If you say nothing, odds are you will never have sex with your wife again."
That's exactly what has happened to me. At this point I live with it, because the other option is to divorce, which may very well happen also. The only reason I'm still here is financial only.
But my realty is I will never have sex with my wife again. That is a very sad thing to live with.
I remember the first time we had sex in 1989, and the very last time in 2001. Of course I remember a lot of wonderful times in between those years. But I have to not think of them too much because it's too painful to think I will never be intimate with her again.
If you don't address it, you will be like me and I'm 58 right now.
I'm 57. 0 sex in 8 years. Is this it? this is not what I signed on for solodriver. So many miserable merriages that need to end, including mine. Either that, or we all need to have affairs I hope all of us experience love and intimacy again before we die. what good is money if you're not in sync with your partner? It's kinda funny that you say that saarinista. When my wife and I first met we were so hot with each other and used to joke about how we would be having sex into our 60s, 70s and 80s. Guess the joke was on me. I guess it can still happen, just not with her.
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