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Post by brian on Dec 10, 2017 15:21:50 GMT -5
I'll let you know in the AM - upon returning home tonight without my wedding ring on, one would hope something should happen, good or ill... Completely agree. I don't think I've heard an apology from mine, quite possibly ever. But demand one from me? Pretty much daily basis. And hell to pay if I don't. And usually hell to pay anyway because I don't and she will ask me "don't you think you need to apologize?" doesn't matter how small or trivial the alleged infraction is, she needs a sincere, deep, heartfelt apology each and every time or we are headed straight to argumentville. I dunno. I might enjoy a good fight. You might consider with an opening volley of, “Why did you marry someone who obviously does so wrong in your eyes on a daily basis that it requires an apology? Or do you simply need validation that you have all the right answers to everything?” Of course, she’ll demand an apology for that too!
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Post by whuffo on Dec 10, 2017 15:23:45 GMT -5
Completely agree. I don't think I've heard an apology from mine, quite possibly ever. But demand one from me? Pretty much daily basis. And hell to pay if I don't. And usually hell to pay anyway because I don't and she will ask me "don't you think you need to apologize?" doesn't matter how small or trivial the alleged infraction is, she needs a sincere, deep, heartfelt apology each and every time or we are headed straight to argumentville. I dunno. I might enjoy a good fight. You might consider with an opening volley of, “Why did you marry someone who obviously does so wrong in your eyes on a daily basis that it requires an apology? Or do you simply need validation that you have all the right answers to everything?” Of course, she’ll demand an apology for that too! Oh yes. I'd have to confess to the err of my ways and apologize relentlessly or else run the risk of months with no sex.... oh, wait...
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Post by brian on Dec 10, 2017 15:30:51 GMT -5
I dunno. I might enjoy a good fight. You might consider with an opening volley of, “Why did you marry someone who obviously does so wrong in your eyes on a daily basis that it requires an apology? Or do you simply need validation that you have all the right answers to everything?” Of course, she’ll demand an apology for that too! Oh yes. I'd have to confess to the err of my ways and apologize relentlessly or else run the risk of months with no sex.... oh, wait... And this is exactly why I sometimes (often?) say certain sexual things to my roomie... just to humor myself with her response, because she isn’t going to fuck me, regardless of how carefull I am to do and say the right things (that doesn’t exist, btw). So her power over me in that department is gone.
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Post by solodriver on Dec 10, 2017 16:47:11 GMT -5
Another question...My Darvo-master ex wife never once apologized to me for any matter of substance in our 20 years of marriage. It seems to me this might be a common denominator or perhaps I just had an exception. Thoughts? My wife has NOT ONCE in 30 years apologized for anything. It's always my fault.
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Post by brian on Dec 10, 2017 17:04:35 GMT -5
Another question...My Darvo-master ex wife never once apologized to me for any matter of substance in our 20 years of marriage. It seems to me this might be a common denominator or perhaps I just had an exception. Thoughts? My wife has NOT ONCE in 30 years apologized for anything. It's always my fault.
Sorry for this, but I am feeling a bit confrontational tonight... since it's always your fault, why not apologize for making the mistake of marrying her (or anyone).
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Post by petrushka on Dec 10, 2017 17:24:42 GMT -5
My flatmate is beset by huge amounts of self inflicted guilt. Well, carry-over from an abusive family I guess.
If anything happens that surprises her, the kneejerk reaction is to let fly with some accusation to me. Most of the time completely off-topic and often entirely surreal. Attack is her immediate response to feeling guilty, surprised, frightened ...
I have learned to just ignore those 'first comments' when something goes bang, in the room or outside. Like her dropping a plate on the floor or stubbing a toe or whatever. If I just ignore it, nothing comes of it. (or is that "off it"?)
Since I have laid into her, 8 years ago, about her passive aggressive DARVO tactics (every time we had a difference of opinion she'd deny, attack me for abusive behaviour, then run off and become 'the fridge' for a day or three) she's stopped doing that. Life is much better.
It was something she took in with her mother's milk, and probably never realized she was doing.
The upshot, the sad fact is, though, that she is extremely sensitive, and very easy to upset into a state of withdrawl. So I have to walk on eggshells not to upset her, and she continuously walks on eggshells because she thinks she might be teetering on the edge of an angry outburst from me (I don't do angry outbursts, I almost never get angry at all -- when I am truly angry, I go white around the nose and don't say a thing, I walk off) -- she just can't believe me when I tell her that. When I talk passionately on some subject she automatically assumes that I'm angry. When I curse because I dropped a brick on my toe (metaphorically speaking), she thinks I am angry at her ...
Go figure. Out on the surface she is a strong, capable, confident, resilient woman, but inside lurks a frightened, defensive 7 year old child.
I do get apologies when she figures she's gone and fucked up. And I haven't said anything. If I do say something before she does, I get a preemptive counter-attack instead. Think: angry doberman.
Vice versa, because apologizing comes easily to me "hey, I fucked up, I am sorry" (accept responsibility, move on, try and fix whatever) she cannot take it seriously and accept it: after all, if I admit to that so easily, I can't really MEAN it, right? Not enough writhing ...
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Post by solodriver on Dec 10, 2017 21:28:10 GMT -5
My flatmate is beset by huge amounts of self inflicted guilt. Well, carry-over from an abusive family I guess. If anything happens that surprises her, the kneejerk reaction is to let fly with some accusation to me. Most of the time completely off-topic and often entirely surreal. Attack is her immediate response to feeling guilty, surprised, frightened ... I have learned to just ignore those 'first comments' when something goes bang, in the room or outside. Like her dropping a plate on the floor or stubbing a toe or whatever. If I just ignore it, nothing comes of it. (or is that "off it"?) Since I have laid into her, 8 years ago, about her passive aggressive DARVO tactics (every time we had a difference of opinion she'd deny, attack me for abusive behaviour, then run off and become 'the fridge' for a day or three) she's stopped doing that. Life is much better. It was something she took in with her mother's milk, and probably never realized she was doing. The upshot, the sad fact is, though, that she is extremely sensitive, and very easy to upset into a state of withdrawl. So I have to walk on eggshells not to upset her, and she continuously walks on eggshells because she thinks she might be teetering on the edge of an angry outburst from me (I don't do angry outbursts, I almost never get angry at all -- when I am truly angry, I go white around the nose and don't say a thing, I walk off) -- she just can't believe me when I tell her that. When I talk passionately on some subject she automatically assumes that I'm angry. When I curse because I dropped a brick on my toe (metaphorically speaking), she thinks I am angry at her ... Go figure. Out on the surface she is a strong, capable, confident, resilient woman, but inside lurks a frightened, defensive 7 year old child. I do get apologies when she figures she's gone and fucked up. And I haven't said anything. If I do say something before she does, I get a preemptive counter-attack instead. Think: angry doberman. Vice versa, because apologizing comes easily to me "hey, I fucked up, I am sorry" (accept responsibility, move on, try and fix whatever) she cannot take it seriously and accept it: after all, if I admit to that so easily, I can't really MEAN it, right? Not enough writhing ... I'm the same way. I apologize whenever I screw up immediately, but the wife says it's bullshit because I am just saying it so she won't be upset and it's not for real. And when I apologize a few hours or days later, she still won't accept the apology.
I can't win, and I quit trying.
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Post by shamwow on Dec 11, 2017 9:46:38 GMT -5
Another question...My Darvo-master ex wife never once apologized to me for any matter of substance in our 20 years of marriage. It seems to me this might be a common denominator or perhaps I just had an exception. Thoughts? My wife has NOT ONCE in 30 years apologized for anything. It's always my fault.
Curious. Did you ever bring that point up to her? When I did to my ex (after the divorce) she denied it but couldnt produce a single example to support her assertion. That being said, I am often wrong. But I try to honestly fess up when I am. God knows I'm not perfect.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 11, 2017 11:26:24 GMT -5
Another DARVO last night, this time at 3:30am.
My STBX has been on a liquid diet for for 24 hrs. She's going in for a colonoscopy (fun fun!) she refused to mention anything about it to me. Typical of a controller to not show any need for sympathy. That would mean being open and vulnerable, and that's not acceptable. The kids end up telling me these things.
We have had this "ongoing problem" ever since she left the bedroom of her still using the master bath. This means she walks into the bedroom "now being used only by me" when ever she pleases. Me showering, getting dressed, sleeping, on the phone, talking with the kids, anything...just walks right in. The other 7 members of the family don't do that. They knock, they have manners, respect, and show decency.
Anyways...after 9;00pm she used the bathroom over 7 times. We have 3 other bathrooms in the house. One is the same walking distance from her bed, and disturbs no one. However using the masterbath means opening and closing the french doors, opening two other doors, turning on lights and the noise from the toilet. We discussed this months ago. Her immediate reaction was" No. I'm going to do whatever I care to, it's my bathroom too!"
After tolerating being woken up so many times I confronted her and said," please use the other bathroom, if you are going to continue this throughout the night?" She said nothing. I then told her ,"you need to use the other three bathrooms".
She immediately responded, " nope this is the one I choose". I then told her," you are scaring me waking me up several times during the night,it stresses me, and you can use the other bathroom. You are forcing me to set a boundary, you are showing your narcissistic behavior, and controlling attitude, I will lock the doors, and block the doors."
She immediately responded with " I will tell my attorney that you locked me out of my own master bedroom". I told her "fine, you do that."
I unlocked the doors at 6;30 am and moved the chairs, giving her plenty of time to use the bathroom in the morning.
Notice the DARVO? " I will tell my attorney that you locked me out of the master bedroom"
Denial- Total denial that her disrupting my sleep for the past year, and that she could always use the other bathroom. Argue- Immediate responses with the word NO! Reversal- Your locking me out of my master bedroom! Victim- You locked me out and left me homeless!! LOL!! Offender- I'm only thinking about myself!
My W. decided to leave our bedroom totally on her own setting up her own bedroom in another part of the house. No one forced anything on her, and the whole family knows it!!
I did not get much more sleep. I heard her get up and use the other bathroom with no trouble at all. She was right there using the master bathroom again at 6:40am while I was in the shower.
Before my daughter left for school she closed the front door coming inside. my W tells her. " Don't shut the door so loud, shut it quietly" ( can you say hypocrisy?) My daughter says to her " that's the way it always sounds, that's the way it shuts" (very true, by the way) The W says. Close it again quietly." My daughter closes it again slower. It sounded just as loud. my daughter told her mom, " It sounded the same". My narcissistic W -who refuses to be corrected- tells her " that was much quieter" -MORE DARVO- my daughter could care less and goes off to school!
It's going to be so nice to be free! well worth the cost. If i ever doubt it I hope I read these again!!
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Post by M2G on Dec 11, 2017 12:32:05 GMT -5
Yow greatcoastal - thanks for that (and sorry you are at the crap end of the stick). You just taught me something: remain as civil as possible till the very minute before the sht has to hit the fan.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 16, 2017 14:43:00 GMT -5
More and more DARVO goes on at our house daily, all from the mouth of my W.
My 19yr. old son comes up to his mom after she went to the grocery store and asks her, "mom, did you buy more laundry detergent?". Without taking a breath, with lightning speed the first word out of her mouth? You guessed it! NO!....It wasn't on the list. My son responded with,"I didn't put it on the list yet because you don't go to the store until tomorrow". The W. responds " I've been going to the store every Sat." (not true) He calls her on it. He reminds her again, "you've been going on Sundays". Not missing a second,and never admitting that anyone could be right and she could be wrong, she says," I stopped that weeks ago, and have been going on Sat. I put a note on the fridge." My son than asks, "when are you going to get more detergent?" Avoiding the truth, and reversing the conversation she asks "how much is left, and when did you run out" He answers There's only a little bit left and we are going to run out tomorrow". Then comes her 'not my problem,as I sit on my ass, attitude' she says to him" Oh well, not my problem". He then says," what about the rest of the week? You're not going to get any until next Sat.?" She says with no remorse showing zero empathy for anyone, " that's right". He walks off flustered and upset.
I sit across the house observing this, remaining silent, staying out of it, and thinking, this is what I've tolerated for years. Only now I would call her out on it, embarrass her in front of the whole family, call her a manipulative controller, a narc, and point out how she didn't solve anything, how she changes her lies, how putting things on the list means nothing, sighting example after example of her refusal to buy things on the list, and her hypocrisy of buying things regularly "mostly for her and her daddy" that never make it to the list, and the years of me not needing a list at all! Then there's the question of "what's going to happen when she want's her laundry done, or her daddy's laundry?"
Of course she can't stand that! And it won't change her at all. She has no empathy! Instead I'm curious to watch how the family remains under her control and acts powerless to her manipulations.
Just like her lack of lunch and dinner food that she refuses to buy enough of, my sons will start buying there own detergent and start keeping it hidden. Which plays right into her controlling hands doesn't it?
Then there is grandpa. Grandpa is going to give one of the boys cash, send them to the grocery store, have them buy laundry detergent for the whole family, with his money ,and buy the boy some McDonalds food for the boy and himself. Meanwhile Grandpa is intruding by rescuing his selfish ,controlling ,daughter, again.
How simple would it have been for my W. to say, "when will one of you boys be working at the store? Is anyone going near the store today or tomorrow? Here's $10.00 please buy us some more laundry detergent, buy two so we have enough, and next time put it on the list when it gets low, not after it's all gone."
I sit and think about being gone from such a controller and the toxic environment, and what a favor I'm doing for my kids by eliminating as much of it as possible, sadly it came down to a divorce and two separate households.
Deny: NO! Argue: you didn't put it on the list. Reverse: I changed that weeks ago. I've been going to the store 'every' sat. Victim: Helpless me can't do a simple task like checking on laundry detergent, or heaven forbid 'spending money' on something that won't go bad and is needed for everyone! Offender: Not my problem, your the one with problems.
I tell these detailed stories for myself, and for anyone else who can relate to such a story to their own circumstances,and realize the situation they are stuck in , and the need to escape from it. The most difficult part is pulling my boys aside and explaining to them " this is what your mother just did to you". That is a huge hurdle to have to get over. To much fear of sounding all against their mom and being labeled as the angry one. Quite a mind F%$# isn't it?
PS: Just to top it off, my W posted on fakebook a picture of her daddy (grandpa) eating breakfast at a restaurant at the beach. And a picture of the ocean titled " Having breakfast with dad." Of course she gets "likes" from her minions wishing her a Merry Christmas.
Meanwhile back at the house my daughter is telling me " there's nothing to eat at the house, there's no cereal, no eggs, no bacon, only bread. I'm so tired of nothing but toast for breakfast". The real reason why they are out eating breakfast!!
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Post by csl on Dec 16, 2017 21:48:34 GMT -5
PS: Just to top it off, my W posted on fakebook a picture of her daddy (grandpa) eating breakfast at a restaurant at the beach. And a picture of the ocean titled " Having breakfast with dad." Of course she gets "likes" from her minions wishing her a Merry Christmas. Meanwhile back at the house my daughter is telling me " there's nothing to eat at the house, there's no cereal, no eggs, no bacon, only bread. I'm so tired of nothing but toast for breakfast". The real reason why they are out eating breakfast!! So many solutions.... let the air out of her tires remove the distributor cap remove the spark plugs. Okay, maybe the last two are over the top, but having a flat or two might put a kink in her breakfast plans.
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Post by Frustrated1978 on Dec 21, 2017 18:58:30 GMT -5
My Refuser is a Master at Darvo, always denying, then quickly goes on the attack regarding topics that have no meaning in the current issue, Reversing the matter to express what an arsehole, i am All the while playing the victim and offended card.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 22, 2017 22:58:19 GMT -5
Has anyone heard the term " overly responsible"?
My STBX's latest excuse!
She claimed that "she has learned to be more aggressive and NOT be overly responsible". Meaning having zero empathy (lacks a conscience) is now justified! ( her -not my problem- not my concern- I don't know what to tell you- avoidance, or the whatever- oh-well.)
To me it's a denial and a reversal for someone who is a "manipulative controller". Someone who is afraid to give up power, and everything must be done their way.
Controllers train there victims not to expect much, if anything, from the beginning. This " I've been overly responsible" is more of the same. You learn to stop sharing your feelings ,and don't ask anything of the controller, all the while hoping they will miraculously change.
They then expect "acts of service" when all of their control is very self centered.
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Post by rejected101 on Dec 24, 2017 8:40:34 GMT -5
Examples of DARVO.
D - “we are perfectly normal” implication being my expectations are abnormal.
A - “But you don’t initiate sex anymore. Am I supposed to read your mind. ” Implication being that it’s my fault and no acknowledgment of why I stopped initiating (I was sick of being knocked back over and over).
RVO - “I thought you married me for who I am” implication being, I am simply after a fuck and nothing more. That one works so well! You can even get neutral friends on side with this one! It’s almost flawless.
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