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Post by james on Nov 10, 2017 4:17:39 GMT -5
Dear all, Relatively new to the DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) concept and intrigued by it. I wonder if some of my wife's behaviour qualifies. For example, the other night she took my hand and held it for a a short time, I then let it go. Hers was a kind of 'out of the blue' gesture which didn't seem to have any context, all forms of kissing/cuddling/hugging/flirting having been off the table for a while now, bar the most perfunctory. Generally I have instigated these in the past but I have pretty much stopped them now. A few days after this we were talking and she said that there seemed to be "a barrier between us". She was definitely not wrong in that observation, so I said that the lack of sex in our relationship was still a problem for me. She then got quite angry and said that she had held my hand the other night but I had just let it go. So what did I expect? Not denying but certainly attaching and possibly reversing victim/offender. I'd be interested to hear about any real examples- or be referred to previous threads about it. BTW I would definitely be open to a try at improving intimacy with my wife. But it would have to happen in the context of a full discussion along the lines of: 'OK James, I understand that you want to have sex and so we are going to put a date in the diary one week from now and we will do it. And in the meantime we will flirt with each other and do all those little things that say that sex is going to happen'. If that seems a bit unspontaneous, well at least Ester Perel thinks the same- see her interview in BBC Woman's Hour where she compares tennis and sex. She is saying that you don't expect a game of tennis just to happen- you have to plan it (prepare kit, book court etc etc), and the time comes when so you do with sex with your partner. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09bxkhpThanks for any help with the DARVO thing. James
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Post by M2G on Nov 10, 2017 9:03:06 GMT -5
Probably a PD tactic they generally use to deflect blame and win the argument. I doubt they analyze the process - I didn;t, when I used to do it, I must admit.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 10, 2017 9:10:24 GMT -5
Whether DARVO or not afterward, her handholding seemed empty. Shows how far apart you are.
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Post by csl on Nov 10, 2017 13:17:17 GMT -5
She then got quite angry and said that she had held my hand the other night but I had just let it go. So what did I expect? "You held my hand? So? What does that have to do with sex? Do you really think that holding my hand for a couple of minutes is supposed to take the place of a real sex life?" I know... Monday morning quarterbacking, but really. Why would she even try to posit hand-holding as a remedy for a sexless marriage?
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Post by shamwow on Nov 10, 2017 14:11:12 GMT -5
Well, from my SM, here is a decent example:
I was the victim of classic "bait and switch". A tiny bit of background...Sex while was had in great quantities. Two weeks after rings were exchanged, she had a HPV flare-up which required really painful laser surgery to burn off the affected skin on her lady parts. She didn't get it from me (I was a virgin except for her). I was the good new groom and awaited it to clear up. Well, from that point on, sex was painful and even "a q-tip" was agony. After talking with many of the women on this forum, I realized that it would have been impossible to have annual exams without the doctor realizing this pain if a q-tip was truly excruciating.
So with that background...When I finally told her that I was calling it quits, the conversation went like this:
Deny: "Sex was painful from the day we met." - We once had sex 24 times in 24 hours. This was just a pure lie. A good deny is often a lie (see gaslighting for more info) Attack: "You have no idea how painful it is." - Just on its face of it I'm missing the lady parts to know what it would feel like. A good attack can have no real defense. Attacks based on subject emotion work GREAT for this. Reverse Victim / Offender: "If you had cared so much, you should have scheduled the appointment and even driven me there if I wasn't going. It's what I would have done for you if you'd had cancer or something like that." - Now, this is just nuts. She is not an invalid. She has a master's degree and doesn't need a "daddy" to bring her to her doctor's appointments. For 20 years?
Another example. I'm an alcoholic. If I have one drink I cannot stop myself. This one might not fit the model exactly, but it's really easy to maintain control over someone when they are drunk and depressed. Plus, there is no way I could have left her when I was in that sad state. She was motivated to keep me in that state.
Deny: "Honey, I have a drinking problem and I need to stop" Attack: "You don't have a drinking problem" - Yes, I know that doesn't sound like an attack, but bear with me. She knows WHY I have a drinking problem without me having to spell it out. Reverse Victim / Offender: "But, you do realize your family has a history of that kind of thing" - Note the contradiction between the attack and the reversal? Just to preempt me thinking that it had anything to do with her. It's genetics, not her.
One thing about DARVO, though. If you're still playing by the "rules" of being an understanding spouse, you are almost guaranteed to be blind to it. Only once you question whether the person you love really loves you back do you really ask these questions. Now that she has the formal title of "ex-wife" rather than "wife", the DARVO and gaslighting is on display clear as day...and mortifying as to how long it went on.
Now that I'm out, I can see the attempts at manipulation. They are almost pathetic in how obvious they are. But they fooled me for a couple decades and still fool me. At times I look at her handiwork and mentally give it a golf clap and say "well done" and build up another warning in my perimeter to catch that particular angle next time. I'm only a few months out of my marriage but am getting better at recognizing bullshit and calling it for what it is.
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Post by shamwow on Nov 10, 2017 14:13:51 GMT -5
Another question...My Darvo-master ex wife never once apologized to me for any matter of substance in our 20 years of marriage. It seems to me this might be a common denominator or perhaps I just had an exception.
Thoughts?
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Post by M2G on Nov 10, 2017 14:59:48 GMT -5
Another question...My Darvo-master ex wife never once apologized to me for any matter of substance in our 20 years of marriage. It seems to me this might be a common denominator or perhaps I just had an exception. Thoughts? I'll let you know in the AM - upon returning home tonight without my wedding ring on, one would hope something should happen, good or ill...
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Nov 10, 2017 22:21:56 GMT -5
Another question...My Darvo-master ex wife never once apologized to me for any matter of substance in our 20 years of marriage. It seems to me this might be a common denominator or perhaps I just had an exception. Thoughts? Amen, brother. Not even a simple "I'm sorry" for anything. If I have ever brought it up... "When I do apologize you just conveniently forget, or it doesn't count." Just a little DARVO to keep it fresh.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 10, 2017 22:29:09 GMT -5
My refuser ex never apologized for spending more than $6 k of our money supporting a secret toddler he thought he’d fathered in Manila. Of course he didn’t apologize for anything else either including 8 straight years of no sex with me. I am grateful that I didn’t base an apology from him as what was necessary for me to heal and move on .
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Post by elkclan2 on Nov 16, 2017 9:16:16 GMT -5
My refuser ex has never apologised for anything HE has done. He did once apologise for the way his mother behaved to me. He didn't even do those 'nothing' apologies, like when you accidentally bump into someone. I mentioned this to him - he said it wasn't true and that anyway, I never apologised for anything (which at that point was more true than it had been, but still not true).
I once remember he spilled paint all over the (nice!) artificial grass in the back garden. He slunk back inside without saying what happened, without apologising, without anything. I got out there on my hands and knees and cleaned it up. Months later he was telling people how hard it was to clean paint out of it. WTF? How would he know? (Actually it wasn't that hard, but it had to be done in a hurry!)
He also never asked me how my day was or how I was feeling. I tracked once for a whole year, he didn't ask me how I was feeling other than one time. I told him that in the attempt to tell him how disconnected and uncared for I felt. He said he did all the time (nope!) and that I never asked him about his day or how he was feeling (definitely untrue).
Do they apologise - do they show a shred of interest in your life and welfare?
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 16, 2017 10:17:59 GMT -5
My refuser expressed that her sexual needs were not being met, because of my work schedule, and that once she had taken care of herself because I was not available. Once?! Once?! I did not even know she knew how to masturbate. Once?! I've take care of myself once every day for over two decades, and have never turned her down no matter how tired I was.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 16, 2017 10:42:09 GMT -5
What your describing is a fundamental component of people with these disorders-
lack of empathy. Entitlement. Blaming others for everything. Refusing to take accountability.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 16, 2017 10:44:33 GMT -5
“He also never asked me how my day was”
My ex was like that even when I called him while traveling out of the country. After more than 30 years of that, I asked him why. He said he followed my day on FB.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 16, 2017 11:00:03 GMT -5
“He also never asked me how my day was” My ex was like that even when I called him while traveling out of the country. After more than 30 years of that, I asked him why. He said he followed my day on FB. That's interesting! I remember early in our marriage, I would come home with all kinds of stories about dealing with patients,and customers. I would then ask my W about her day? Same old response, "fine". I would dig and press, "Well what was it like? was it good or bad? do you ever see anyone? how do they treat you? what did you work on? do you like it? is it difficult? how many people where at the meeting? who speaks? do you speak, or ask questions? did you go out to eat? how was the food? what did you order? would you like to go there together some time? ...you know, I showed concern, care, understanding, and interest in her. It was like pulling teeth! I soon stopped trying. I would get little one word answers, like it was none of my business, or my conclusion would be, you do a lot of nothing and have a pretty boring day. As you can imagine, that ends communication. Another nail in the coffin, and more "why" questions about their fears to be open, honest, and vulnerable. They don't want to give up the least amount of control. Their day, their way, their business.
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Post by rubyslippers on Dec 7, 2017 1:22:43 GMT -5
The most infuriating example from my SM: When I approached the sexless talk too timidly, the conversation would get deflected/avoided. So whenever I approached the conversation with a bit more passion, her response was always the same: “Why are you attacking me?” This cycle happened again and again right up until I started employing the STFU technique (shut the fuck up). DARVO has diminished significantly since STFU.
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