|
Post by h on Jun 19, 2017 21:07:51 GMT -5
I also do Lord of the Rings Omg 😲. I LOVE these! Nice! It occupies my time. Thanks ☺
|
|
|
Post by rdp62 on Jun 19, 2017 21:27:23 GMT -5
There's nothing brave about remaining in a shithole. It takes courage to leave and venture into the unknown. Giving up is not brave. It's defeat. Second this!
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jun 19, 2017 21:29:01 GMT -5
Just occurs to me that we have not yet addressed the best distractive tactic of them all to get your focus off the core problem, and on to peripheral issues that you can't do anything about.
"Why Chasing".
Worked for me for decades.
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Jun 19, 2017 22:25:23 GMT -5
There's nothing brave about remaining in a shithole. It takes courage to leave and venture into the unknown. Giving up is not brave. It's defeat. Second this! So what say you northstarmom and rdp62 if someone makes an informed decision to stay despite the shit? Choosing not to "give up" but rather deciding that there may be factors more important than having a sexually fulfilling relationship with one's spouse? Do you see that as a defeat? Do you mourn that person's choice? And if so, is it because you made the opposite choice? For the record, I absolutely agree it takes an immense amount of courage to "leave and venture into the unknown". I admire every one of you here who has made that major life change in search of authentic happiness.
|
|
|
Post by rdp62 on Jun 19, 2017 23:17:04 GMT -5
So what say you northstarmom and rdp62 if someone makes an informed decision to stay despite the shit? Choosing not to "give up" but rather deciding that there may be factors more important than having a sexually fulfilling relationship with one's spouse? Do you see that as a defeat? Do you mourn that person's choice? And if so, is it because you made the opposite choice? For the record, I absolutely agree it takes an immense amount of courage to "leave and venture into the unknown". I admire every one of you here who has made that major life change in search of authentic happiness. I don't consider this giving up at all. I think there are factors more important than a sexually fulfilling relationship. For the sake of argument let's say I was in a normal happy marriage and for a medical reason sex was impossible would I leave? I think the answer would be no. I have an assumption that in a lot of SM marriages this is just one symptom of a bigger problem like a loveless marriage. SM only in a loving relationship I could be ok with, living in a loveless environment is constant agony and worse and I do mourn people that do. deciding that there may be factors more important than having a sexually fulfilling relationship with one's spouse?
|
|
|
Post by orangepeel on Jun 20, 2017 0:03:27 GMT -5
Really good topic.
An absence of sex in my view places enormous stress on two areas of life: the sexual (well, der) and the emotional.
I deal with the emotional by farming out my frustrated feelings to my kids (but not, I hope, that that sort of overcompensating way they notice which fucks them up), to my work (all too easy), to friends and to books.
This works. Just.
Sexually, there's masturbation. Pornography's really raised its game since I was a teen. Humiliating, but there you go. I go to the gym and keep aerobically fit. That's good for self-esteem, as are the occasional (and relatively uncommon!) looks I get from women in the street. God, I live for those looks!
This works, just.
The worst bit is the faint distance I force myself to keep from my wife to bolster self-esteem. It's exhausting and a bit miserable, but I need it to stop feeling like a gimp.
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Jun 20, 2017 0:50:24 GMT -5
orangepeel There's no reason for you to feel embarrassed because you watch porn. I personally think it can be a good outlet.
|
|
|
Post by rdp62 on Jun 20, 2017 2:51:42 GMT -5
So what say you northstarmom and rdp62 if someone makes an informed decision to stay despite the shit? Choosing not to "give up" but rather deciding that there may be factors more important than having a sexually fulfilling relationship with one's spouse? Do you see that as a defeat? Do you mourn that person's choice? And if so, is it because you made the opposite choice? For the record, I absolutely agree it takes an immense amount of courage to "leave and venture into the unknown". I admire every one of you here who has made that major life change in search of authentic happiness. There is a sex, intimacy, or both most important poll thread, interesting result not that many votes but 0 for sex and intimacy, 100% both most important. Curious if only options were sex or intimacy think intimacy would win by a lot and that's how I would vote / want
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jun 20, 2017 3:13:56 GMT -5
The anecdotal evidence, available to anyone who can be arsed doing a whole heap of reading, is that those who leave their ILIASM shithole report greatly enhanced happiness levels post splitting up. Brother filtermachine was the most recent example of this and there have been heaps who have preceded him. OTOH there is a complete paucity of evidence among the members who stay that this choice is a happiness enhancing choice. The most recent example of someone staying is Sister choosinghappy - and that does not appear to be a happy story. There is only one current member who left their ILIASM shithole and then returned to it. That being Sister eternaloptimism - and she is now attempting to reverse that choice. But the point can't be made too strongly, that either choice is as valid as the other. So is the other choice - cheating. You choose, and you wear the consequences / outcomes of your choice. How, and on what basis, you make your choice is entirely at your discretion. You can consider the testimonials and opinions of the stayers / leavers / cheaters in the group if you want. Or you can totally ignore the opinions and outcomes others report. You can flip a coin if you are so disposed. But what you CAN NOT DO, is "not choose". You don't get a pass. No-one gets a pass If you will not choose, then the default - the choice the refusive spouse made - prevails. In effect, you have effectively chosen to endorse the refusive spouses choice.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 5:27:43 GMT -5
The anecdotal evidence, available to anyone who can be arsed doing a whole heap of reading, is that those who leave their ILIASM shithole report greatly enhanced happiness levels post splitting up. Brother filtermachine was the most recent example of this and there have been heaps who have preceded him. OTOH there is a complete paucity of evidence among the members who stay that this choice is a happiness enhancing choice. The most recent example of someone staying is Sister choosinghappy - and that does not appear to be a happy story. But the anecdotal evidence is skewed by default. To take an oversimplifying example (which every example here is), let's say that a couple have a working, sexless relationship and adore their kids. Their sexual problems, while obviously a source of tension, are not affecting the kids in any way. A divorce, on the other hand, would throw the family into chaos, financially destroy their stability, and could easily result in acrimony and ugliness. Staying in such a marriage is not defeat. It is a statement that some values are more important to some people than sex. Portraying such a marriage as a "shithole" is not only inaccurate but hateful. All anecdotal evidence you mention comes from people who have already made the decision that sex (again, oversimplifying because it is often a symptom of something bigger) is more important than the other areas of their lives. And that's fine - by no means do I disparage them. But they made that decision because the calculus for them favored separation. So of course most of them will end up happier. But that is not a scientific sample of people in sexless marriages. It is a sample of people who left sexless marriages. There is a big difference. Those of us who are in SMs are in enough pain. To be disparaged as weak for having different priorities, and yes, self-sacrificing an important part of our lives for other principles, makes this site sometimes add to the pain instead of help.
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jun 20, 2017 5:50:25 GMT -5
Can't see as there was any suggestion of bagging your choice Brother @shynjdude . You've made your evaluation of your situation on the basis of your calculus of the assorted issues, and chosen to stay. End of story. That doesn't make you any better (or worse) than Brother alreadygone who, by his calculus of the assorted issues, has chosen to leave. There's no "moral high ground" to be had in these situations. You make your choice, you wear the consequences. It is completely egalitarian.
|
|
|
Post by eternaloptimism on Jun 20, 2017 10:12:49 GMT -5
The anecdotal evidence, available to anyone who can be arsed doing a whole heap of reading, is that those who leave their ILIASM shithole report greatly enhanced happiness levels post splitting up. Brother filtermachine was the most recent example of this and there have been heaps who have preceded him. OTOH there is a complete paucity of evidence among the members who stay that this choice is a happiness enhancing choice. The most recent example of someone staying is Sister choosinghappy - and that does not appear to be a happy story. There is only one current member who left their ILIASM shithole and then returned to it. That being Sister eternaloptimism - and she is now attempting to reverse that choice. But the point can't be made too strongly, that either choice is as valid as the other. So is the other choice - cheating. You choose, and you wear the consequences / outcomes of your choice. How, and on what basis, you make your choice is entirely at your discretion. You can consider the testimonials and opinions of the stayers / leavers / cheaters in the group if you want. Or you can totally ignore the opinions and outcomes others report. You can flip a coin if you are so disposed. But what you CAN NOT DO, is "not choose". You don't get a pass. No-one gets a pass If you will not choose, then the default - the choice the refusive spouse made - prevails. In effect, you have effectively chosen to endorse the refusive spouses choice. Only me daft enough ha ha. Seriously though, I felt compelled to leave the first time by my sister encouraging me and helping facilitate things. Id opened up and she wanted me out. I went along with it even though I wasn't ready... emotionally, or intellectually. I let someone else make the decision for me..... and 3 1/2 yrs later like a bloody boomerang I went back. Thats why I believe it's so important to educate yourself on YOU. Learn, grow, heal, see the shit for what it is. Accept you played a role in it too. The right choice will happen only when you understand yourself.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jun 20, 2017 11:23:51 GMT -5
To take an oversimplifying example (which every example here is), let's say that a couple have a working, sexless relationship and adore their kids. Their sexual problems, while obviously a source of tension, are not affecting the kids in any way. A divorce, on the other hand, would throw the family into chaos, financially destroy their stability, and could easily result in acrimony and ugliness. Staying in such a marriage is not defeat. It is a statement that some values are more important to some people than sex. [...] It is a sample of people who left sexless marriages. There is a big difference. Those of us who are in SMs are in enough pain. To be disparaged as weak for having different priorities, and yes, self-sacrificing an important part of our lives for other principles, makes this site sometimes add to the pain instead of help. I made that same argument to baza when I first came here. While I might have been mostly technically correct about the forum in the way you are, I realize now that I was so very wrong in that I missed the larger practical implications. Another possibility didn't occur to me: since my level of attention on the matter had spiked enough for me to seek help, and that was new to me, I felt that our sexual dysfunction was a relatively new issue, like a canary in a coal mine. It didn't occur to me that it was Stage 4 cancer. I have been on this site and its larger predecessor, and I have found it to be a self-selecting sample of people who initially were IN their celibate marriages and looking for ways to fix or endure them. Some worked to the point of considering suicide, drugs to quell their sexual appetite, deliberately letting themselves get out of shape to decrease their libido, hiring hookers, cheating etc. A dear friend of mine ended up checking herself into the hospital. The one who kicked me into gear in at least trying major methods was the sobering tale of a 70+ year old woman, who spent her whole marriage with a celibate husband, divorcing him in her 70's, only to find him shacking up with someone after developing a romantic connection almost right away. If you are in therapy, as I was, you could do what I did, and ask about the longer term success rate of family counselling in which sex has left the relationship. Dr. Schnarch, as well as my own counselor both agreed on what seemed to be an abysmal failure rate - if success is termed as the marriage lasting 5 years or longer and sex returning. The tension resulting from an asymmetrical lack of romantic investment is NOT on a stable graph; it increases over time. So the manageable priority level the tension you are at today will be one of your BEST days in 1-5 years, likely on the sooner end of that spectrum once you have named the demon. The priority increases over time. You are still framing the problem as I did when it was in the tolerable range: as a choice between marriage and sex, with one of those appearing as the higher ideal. At some point, it dawns that marriage is at risk of imminent collapse because the partner who is not romantically invested ALSO regards sex as important. Avoiding it with you is MORE important than removing or lessening the risk to the marriage. Even while that's hard to grasp on a conscious level, the insult is intuitively felt and internalized, and will fuck with the way you think. Just how important is it that your partner avoids sex with you, to make it THAT important. It's bitter medicine to backtrack to base assumptions about marriage that you and your partner had, when you've drifted to the point of uncritically posing the dilemma of marriage vs sex. As you recited vows, if both vows had carried an oath of celibacy, like a priest - would either one of you have chosen to be married? Are you married, in a practical sense? Yes, I know you had a wedding, and that you might legally be married - but people can do that and then move apart and never see each other again. If your concept of marriage includes among other things, mutual investment in a romantic partnership, are you living a marriage, or presenting the fantasy of one? What does marriage bring to the table, that a best case amicable ex-spouse doesn't? Stay, leave, do whatever - I don't think anyone is likely to change their course of action over what strangers write on the Internet. But a benefit of this place is that some people here can help you look differently to get a more authentic read of your situation - so you can assess it for yourself. I can't imagine that's going to be anything but painful - but it might help move people a bit faster through their process if they see the milestones pointed out. I have only seen one person on both boards who managed to get a marriage back on track - hl42 was his handle, and he took some major risks in doing it. Is one choice more moral than another? No, I don't think so - it's just a choice with a consequence.
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Jun 20, 2017 11:35:28 GMT -5
"Their sexual problems, while obviously a source of tension, are not affecting the kids in any way. "
I don't think that's possible. The refused partner is by nature experiencing some negative emotions related to their sm. The emotions could be anger, disappointment, hurt, resentfulness, anxiety, depression or self loathing. These strong feelings will affect the refused' ability to think clearly, to have energy and to be fully present for their children.
The sm experience also will affect the messages spoken and unspoken that the refused conveys to their kids about love, sex and intimacy by word, action or silence.
Whether living amidst a sm is easier for kids than is divorce would depend upon the individuals involved. But it is wrong to think that SMs have no impact on ones' kids and one's parenting. Some refused may become too depressed to respond to their kids' problems. Some refused may become overly involved with their kids to compensate for intimacy they lack with their spouse.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 11:48:56 GMT -5
I made that same argument to baza when I first came here. While I might have been mostly technically correct about the forum in the way you are, I realize now that I was so very wrong in that I missed the larger practical implications. Another possibility didn't occur to me: since my level of attention on the matter had spiked enough for me to seek help, and that was new to me, I felt that our sexual dysfunction was a relatively new issue, like a canary in a coal mine. It didn't occur to me that it was Stage 4 cancer. I have been on this site and its larger predecessor, and I have found it to be a self-selecting sample of people who initially were IN their celibate marriages and looking for ways to fix or endure them. Some worked to the point of considering suicide, drugs to quell their sexual appetite, deliberately letting themselves get out of shape to decrease their libido, hiring hookers, cheating etc. A dear friend of mine ended up checking herself into the hospital. The one who kicked me into gear in at least trying major methods was the sobering tale of a 70+ year old woman, who spent her whole marriage with a celibate husband, divorcing him in her 70's, only to find him shacking up with someone after developing a romantic connection almost right away. If you are in therapy, as I was, you could do what I did, and ask about the longer term success rate of family counselling in which sex has left the relationship. Dr. Schnarch, as well as my own counselor both agreed on what seemed to be an abysmal failure rate - if success is termed as the marriage lasting 5 years or longer and sex returning. The tension resulting from an asymmetrical lack of romantic investment is NOT on a stable graph; it increases over time. So the manageable priority level the tension you are at today will be one of your BEST days in 1-5 years, likely on the sooner end of that spectrum once you have named the demon. The priority increases over time. You are still framing the problem as I did when it was in the tolerable range: as a choice between marriage and sex, with one of those appearing as the higher ideal. At some point, it dawns that marriage is at risk of imminent collapse because the partner who is not romantically invested ALSO regards sex as important. Avoiding it with you is MORE important than removing or lessening the risk to the marriage. Even while that's hard to grasp on a conscious level, the insult is intuitively felt and internalized, and will fuck with the way you think. Just how important is it that your partner avoids sex with you, to make it THAT important. It's bitter medicine to backtrack to base assumptions about marriage that you and your partner had, when you've drifted to the point of uncritically posing the dilemma of marriage vs sex. As you recited vows, if both vows had carried an oath of celibacy, like a priest - would either one of you have chosen to be married? Are you married, in a practical sense? Yes, I know you had a wedding, and that you might legally be married - but people can do that and then move apart and never see each other again. If your concept of marriage includes among other things, mutual investment in a romantic partnership, are you living a marriage, or presenting the fantasy of one? What does marriage bring to the table, that a best case amicable ex-spouse doesn't? Stay, leave, do whatever - I don't think anyone is likely to change their course of action over what strangers write on the Internet. But a benefit of this place is that some people here can help you look differently to get a more authentic read of your situation - so you can assess it for yourself. I can't imagine that's going to be anything but painful - but it might help move people a bit faster through their process if they see the milestones pointed out. I have only seen one person on both boards who managed to get a marriage back on track - hl42 was his handle, and he took some major risks in doing it. Is one choice more moral than another? No, I don't think so - it's just a choice with a consequence. I appreciate the time and effort you took to write this. You bring up some really good points. Thanks.
|
|