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Post by beachguy on Jun 20, 2017 12:42:30 GMT -5
I made that same argument to baza when I first came here. While I might have been mostly technically correct about the forum in the way you are, I realize now that I was so very wrong in that I missed the larger practical implications. Another possibility didn't occur to me: since my level of attention on the matter had spiked enough for me to seek help, and that was new to me, I felt that our sexual dysfunction was a relatively new issue, like a canary in a coal mine. It didn't occur to me that it was Stage 4 cancer. I have been on this site and its larger predecessor, and I have found it to be a self-selecting sample of people who initially were IN their celibate marriages and looking for ways to fix or endure them. Some worked to the point of considering suicide, drugs to quell their sexual appetite, deliberately letting themselves get out of shape to decrease their libido, hiring hookers, cheating etc. A dear friend of mine ended up checking herself into the hospital. The one who kicked me into gear in at least trying major methods was the sobering tale of a 70+ year old woman, who spent her whole marriage with a celibate husband, divorcing him in her 70's, only to find him shacking up with someone after developing a romantic connection almost right away. If you are in therapy, as I was, you could do what I did, and ask about the longer term success rate of family counselling in which sex has left the relationship. Dr. Schnarch, as well as my own counselor both agreed on what seemed to be an abysmal failure rate - if success is termed as the marriage lasting 5 years or longer and sex returning. The tension resulting from an asymmetrical lack of romantic investment is NOT on a stable graph; it increases over time. So the manageable priority level the tension you are at today will be one of your BEST days in 1-5 years, likely on the sooner end of that spectrum once you have named the demon. The priority increases over time. You are still framing the problem as I did when it was in the tolerable range: as a choice between marriage and sex, with one of those appearing as the higher ideal. At some point, it dawns that marriage is at risk of imminent collapse because the partner who is not romantically invested ALSO regards sex as important. Avoiding it with you is MORE important than removing or lessening the risk to the marriage. Even while that's hard to grasp on a conscious level, the insult is intuitively felt and internalized, and will fuck with the way you think. Just how important is it that your partner avoids sex with you, to make it THAT important. It's bitter medicine to backtrack to base assumptions about marriage that you and your partner had, when you've drifted to the point of uncritically posing the dilemma of marriage vs sex. As you recited vows, if both vows had carried an oath of celibacy, like a priest - would either one of you have chosen to be married? Are you married, in a practical sense? Yes, I know you had a wedding, and that you might legally be married - but people can do that and then move apart and never see each other again. If your concept of marriage includes among other things, mutual investment in a romantic partnership, are you living a marriage, or presenting the fantasy of one? What does marriage bring to the table, that a best case amicable ex-spouse doesn't? Stay, leave, do whatever - I don't think anyone is likely to change their course of action over what strangers write on the Internet. But a benefit of this place is that some people here can help you look differently to get a more authentic read of your situation - so you can assess it for yourself. I can't imagine that's going to be anything but painful - but it might help move people a bit faster through their process if they see the milestones pointed out. I have only seen one person on both boards who managed to get a marriage back on track - hl42 was his handle, and he took some major risks in doing it. Is one choice more moral than another? No, I don't think so - it's just a choice with a consequence. I appreciate the time and effort you took to write this. You bring up some really good points. Thanks. ^^^^^^ This should be required reading for anyone in an SM, particularly young people and those for which sexlessness started early in the marriage, as it did for me (day1)
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Post by beachguy on Jun 20, 2017 12:44:02 GMT -5
In particular the idea that your misery index will rise exponentially with time and your lifting yourself out of the FOG.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jun 20, 2017 14:45:14 GMT -5
Same here...substance abuse in my experience is a really poor way of coping... But after a while even alcoholism strangely looked attractive as something to distract. If you can maintain the right balance though, as long as it doesn't affect your job alcohol can be effective in dulling sex drive. Just enough to not have a hangover... Well, for me alcohol never dulled my sex drive, or gave me whiskey dick. I have blacked/passed out and was still able to get him up. And I tend to get handsy with my partner and loud, so it would just make things worse at home.
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Post by h on Jun 20, 2017 14:48:00 GMT -5
If you can maintain the right balance though, as long as it doesn't affect your job alcohol can be effective in dulling sex drive. Just enough to not have a hangover... Well, for me alcohol never dulled my sex drive, or gave me whiskey dick. I have blacked/passed out and was still able to get him up. And I tend to get handsy with my partner and loud, so it would just make things worse at home. It makes me happy and pleasant to be around. I'm a quiet and content drunk.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jun 20, 2017 15:14:29 GMT -5
hI tend to have whatever my behavior/feeling exadurated when I am drunk. If I am calm before then I will relax and smoking cigars. If I am energetic and horny, then I will become a horn dog. Alcohol removed my internal to external filter. So, I know there are times I shouldn't or don't drink, like of I'm angry.
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Post by h on Jun 20, 2017 15:40:19 GMT -5
h I tend to have whatever my behavior/feeling exadurated when I am drunk. If I am calm before then I will relax and smoking cigars. If I am energetic and horny, then I will become a horn dog. Alcohol removed my internal to external filter. So, I know there are times I shouldn't or don't drink, like of I'm angry. For me, it's the opposite. Drinking dulls emotions and increases my apathy. This cuts down on my tendency to say the wrong things because I either don't care enough to bother saying them, or my slower processing speed means that someone else will "take the floor" before I have the opportunity to say what I would have said thus preventing me from saying it. If I'm angry before I start drinking, I quit caring about whatever it was after drinking. If I'm horny as hell before drinking, I forget soon and move on to more immediate concerns after drinking. It kinda puts me into this tranquil state of wanting nothing and expecting nothing while being content and "in the present."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 5:36:49 GMT -5
OK, here is the list. I divided it into categories. some might quibble as to my categorization, but altogether this is IMHO a fine list that can get people thinking outside their situations.
Changing one’s life =================== Therapy - joint Therapy - individual Support groups like ILIASM A good friend or good friends that you can confide in Meetups Religion/spirituality Meditation Mindfulness Counting one’s blessings Affirmations Self-help books Nutrition Study/school Finding non-sexual activities that both partners enjoy doing together Substitutes for sex =================== Outsourcing - with emotional attachment FWB Hookup websites Prostitutes Phone sex Cybersex Masturbation and fantasies Sex toys Porn Reading/writing erotic fiction Flirting Distraction =========== Throwing oneself into hobbies Or finding a new hobby Exercise, getting into shape Going back to school Starting a home business Changing daily routine Volunteering Charitable giving Working Spa treatments Concentrating on kids Pets Learning musical instrument/other skill Movies and TV (without sexual or romantic themes) Sports (both watching and participating) Games Role-playing Shopping (within reason) Negative Strategies =================== Alcohol Drugs (legal and illegal) Compulsive shopping Avoiding social situations Extreme physical activity to the point of exhaustion
Perhaps this should be in the Resources section?
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Post by baza on Jul 2, 2017 6:08:25 GMT -5
It's a long and detailed list, but with no mention of tackling the core problem, which I guess is the whole point. It's a list of things you can do to avoid tackling the core problem.
And, choosing to not tackle the core problem is a perfectly legitimate choice.
So that makes it a great list.
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Post by agathos on Jul 4, 2017 9:09:27 GMT -5
I masturbate but I hate it. I want to have sex with my wife! I'm new to this site. I wonder if something is wrong with me. How do I endure this? 24 years of marriage, but over the last 5, our sex life has diminished more and more. It's been 5 months, and I feel like I'm going to explode! How have some of you gone on for years? She could use her hands - they work, or I could grind her leg or thy, but she is not interested in ME... or at least that's how it feels. Im willing to do anything she wants. I'll kiss or touch or lick any part of her but she is not even wanting to try. Too tired, too sick, low libido, and a host of other excuses. I am so sad and depressed over this but I hide it with work and other things.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 4, 2017 10:14:16 GMT -5
agathos , here are your coping strategies, complete with estimated success rates: 1. Divorce your wife. Don't bother trying to fix the problem. She will never want to have sex with you again, nor is she very concerned with your needs. Estimated success rate: 100% 2. Just deal with it. You will adjust to your current misery level, but each time you adjust, your Misery Index will ratchet down further. At some point you will decide you can't be any more miserable. You will be wrong. Estimated success rate: 0% 3. Consult a lawyer and determine your options if you divorce. Get an extra business card from your lawyer. Sit your wife down and explain that Celibacy Is Not An Option. And make it clear you are deadly serious about that. Hand her the spare business card from the lawyer and suggest that she retain a lawyer, and have her lawyer contact your lawyer. If celibacy is really not an option with you, then you have to stand your ground. If you back down, you are fucked for the rest of your life because, as Baza always says, you will shred your cred and she will never take you seriously again. Estimated success rate for salvaging your marriage without a lifetime of enforced celibacy: 1%. If you stand your ground, see #1, 100% 4. Find yourself a girlfriend that wants to fuck you. Assume your wife will eventually find out. Her attitude is "I don't want you but no one else can have you either". Success rate: similar to #1 but you will be the bad guy, the cheater, to all your friends, family, and religious congregation if relevant. No one will ever bother asking your wife "when was the last time she fucked you?" when she brands you a cheater. 5. A variation of #3, offer to open the marriage rather than divorce. Your wife will probably not agree ("I don't want you anymore but no one else can have you either"). If she does agree, and you actually find yourself a fuck buddy, she will then disavow her agreement to open the marriage, claiming she was "coerced". Success rate: very low but I won't bother to quantify it. You will end up a cheater anyway, in the eyes of all who know you, so see #4. That's about it. Your wife no longer wants you, she just wants you around. Probably for the $$$$. She obviously cares not a whit for YOUR needs. As far as she is concerned, she is no longer interested in you, and fuck you if you have a problem with that. Good luck with your decision. There are no easy coping strategies. All have their challenges and varying estimated success rates. Only one has a high probability of coping success.
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Post by lwoetin on Jul 4, 2017 11:12:48 GMT -5
I masturbate but I hate it. I want to have sex with my wife! I'm new to this site. I wonder if something is wrong with me. How do I endure this? 24 years of marriage, but over the last 5, our sex life has diminished more and more. It's been 5 months, and I feel like I'm going to explode! How have some of you gone on for years? She could use her hands - they work, or I could grind her leg or thy, but she is not interested in ME... or at least that's how it feels. Im willing to do anything she wants. I'll kiss or touch or lick any part of her but she is not even wanting to try. Too tired, too sick, low libido, and a host of other excuses. I am so sad and depressed over this but I hide it with work and other things. one member just had his 46th anniversary. He is one tough dude staying that long. I think your wife is interested in you or she would have left. You should leverage your best qualities to achieve what you want. People will come up with excuses until it will hurt them. Like eating sweets and fatty food, until we start seeing the consequences then we eat healthier. Hopefully your wife of 24yrs will realize what a loving spouse she has before she has not.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 4, 2017 17:39:35 GMT -5
one member just had his 46th anniversary. He is one tough dude staying that long. Not sure that's a realistic example for context, assuming you're talking about CSL. In his most recent thread he announces his 46th anniversary and... iliasm.org/thread/3408/another-anniversary-postIn his OP states "Today makes me wonder if I should even be here on ILIASM." And in a later reply to that thread he makes it clear his wife provides him with all the sex he wants. Which could be why he's not sure he belongs here. I think agathos would be better served by browsing the forum, searching for members with 30+ years of this SM stuff under their belt. He could then decide if there are any acceptable coping mechanisms. Personally I never found any.
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Post by baza on Jul 4, 2017 20:44:42 GMT -5
I'd add a #6 to Brother beachguy list above. This one, if you want to give it a go, requires you to rise above the situation and adopt an entirely new mindset. You need to completely accept that your spouse is who and what they are and to accept them - without resentment - exactly as they are as a unique and autonomous human being, warts and all. You need to abandon any notion of *changing them*. You need to cease taking their inventory of short comings. You need to desist from complaining to them about their chosen behaviour. You need to stop complaining about them to other people. You need to take ownership of your choice to stay, and take ownership of the consequences that choice entails. You need to do these things genuinely and without resentment. You need to ditch any tendency to blame your spouse for the situation, as you are staying of your own free will, and you own that choice. This, is essentially, the "Ghandi Strategy". I tried it, and for me, it worked up to a point. Whereas I found I could - sort of - accept it, I was incapable of "accepting without resentment" and that is the cornerstone of this option. To "accept without resentment". I was as resentful as fuck. And ultimately failed heroically in the attempt to take the higher road. I was incapable of getting over the resentment, and resentment is poison. Which meant that I had to get out - or stay, seething with poisonous resentment, doing no-one any good. I eventually got out. If you are going to have a crack at this "high road" / "Ghandi" strategy, then I would wish you luck. Of all the options, this is the hardest. So hard, that it is hardly even worth mentioning it as a realistic option.
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Post by dsprthusband on Aug 12, 2019 13:29:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I was hoping for some reaction. I have already said that my refuser, upon catching me having solo sex, threatened to divorce me, report me to my boss, have me committed, and call the police. Clearly, she does not believe that this is normal behavior. She might concede that some pwrverted me. Partake, but no woman has ever intentionally brought herself to orgasm. As strange as that sounds, I, for some years, believed that. I had never dated a woman who talked about it. I was brought up in a strict catholic family where sex was not discussed at all, and since for years my refuser was my only source of information, o believed her when she said that she and her friends had never talked about it, much less done it. Since finding my way online ro forums such as this, I believe that most women are like men in this way; I was fascinated to fine quite a few postings and Ted talks online that helped me to understand how backward society is when. It comes to what is a perfectly normal, even healthy practice. I read quite a bit about female self love from women whom I guess were of my generation? They confirmed that they never talked about it, most, like me, assumed they had invented it but we're too ashamed to share the secret worth anyone else. Most started at a very young age accidentally when it was likely not a sexual thing but something that inexplicably felt good. Now I think that most women, while they don't need to talk about it,accept it. The topic; however, maintains a double standard. I was away this weekend and saw not one but two cable channels devoted to selling sex toys for women. Most were to be used alone, though one could obviously use any toy with a partner. Women were touting the quality of the products and thousands of women, if you can believe their poste sales totals, were. Using them. Women playing is not only acceptable, it it a big, not business. Men however still seem to have to hide in a corner. It would not be sexy to find a male toy in a nightstand but finding one beside a woman's bed is a plot for a sit com. I still need to hide this aspect of my life. If I know I have a short window of opportunity and I am in need of a Reese, I will rush and or hide somewhere. This makes the experience more shameful and not at all satisfying. When it is the only means of release, though, it is somewhat necessary. I guess I am rambling but I really have no other outlet for speaking my mind. I hope you don't mind.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 14:09:27 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I was hoping for some reaction. I have already said that my refuser, upon catching me having solo sex, threatened to divorce me, report me to my boss, have me committed, and call the police. Clearly, she does not believe that this is normal behavior. She might concede that some pwrverted me. Partake, but no woman has ever intentionally brought herself to orgasm. As strange as that sounds, I, for some years, believed that. I had never dated a woman who talked about it. I was brought up in a strict catholic family where sex was not discussed at all, and since for years my refuser was my only source of information, o believed her when she said that she and her friends had never talked about it, much less done it. Since finding my way online ro forums such as this, I believe that most women are like men in this way; I was fascinated to fine quite a few postings and Ted talks online that helped me to understand how backward society is when. It comes to what is a perfectly normal, even healthy practice. I read quite a bit about female self love from women whom I guess were of my generation? They confirmed that they never talked about it, most, like me, assumed they had invented it but we're too ashamed to share the secret worth anyone else. Most started at a very young age accidentally when it was likely not a sexual thing but something that inexplicably felt good. Now I think that most women, while they don't need to talk about it,accept it. The topic; however, maintains a double standard. I was away this weekend and saw not one but two cable channels devoted to selling sex toys for women. Most were to be used alone, though one could obviously use any toy with a partner. Women were touting the quality of the products and thousands of women, if you can believe their poste sales totals, were. Using them. Women playing is not only acceptable, it it a big, not business. Men however still seem to have to hide in a corner. It would not be sexy to find a male toy in a nightstand but finding one beside a woman's bed is a plot for a sit com. I still need to hide this aspect of my life. If I know I have a short window of opportunity and I am in need of a Reese, I will rush and or hide somewhere. This makes the experience more shameful and not at all satisfying. When it is the only means of release, though, it is somewhat necessary. I guess I am rambling but I really have no other outlet for speaking my mind. I hope you don't mind. Um, nothing about her reaction is reasonable. Nothing. Boss? Police? Psychiatric care?
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