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Post by tamara68 on Jul 4, 2016 4:11:23 GMT -5
I am reading 'Emotional Blackmail' by Susan Forward I think many of us are dealing with this in our marriages. Giving in all the time makes you lose your integrety. And doubt about yourself. And the dynamics between the blackmailer and yourself is causing a FOG. Fear Obligation and Guilt. www.amazon.com/Emotional-Blackmail-People-Obligation-Manipulate/dp/0060928972A very interesting website I have just found: Helping family members & loved-ones OF PEOPLE WHO SUFFER FROM PERSONALITY DISORDERS. outofthefog.website/
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Post by petrushka on Jul 4, 2016 6:02:09 GMT -5
Yes, I do get the bit about doubting yourself. If someone continuously hammers away at your perception of you you do start doubting yourself.
It's happened to me in my marriage. But, well, I ultimately did not believe it and so I went looking for comfirmation or rebuttal. I think that is one of the reasons why so many abusive spouses seem so intent on isolating their victims: to remove the possibility of a reality check, of seeking feedback from others who may be observers yet aren't invested to the same degree and so able to offer a somewhat detached ('objective') observation.
A victim who has no friends, no support network truly gets lost in the FOG so easily, unless they are exceptionally strong.
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Post by adventura on Jul 4, 2016 6:35:42 GMT -5
The FOG concept is used in therapy and support groups for victims of relationship abuse. (Disclaimer: I know this from reading, not personal experience.) It's a very good book and very helpful for people who find it hard to get out because of what these relationships do to your brain. Another one you might want to read is "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft, and also "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin Becker.
FOG isn't just something others do to us. We also FOG ourselves to keep an unhealthy relationship dynamic alive. It's easy for people to say "why doesn't she just leave?" but there's a lot of deep instinct working in abusive situations that people on the outside don't get.
I hope you take that important first step and reach out to the organization you've found with people trained to help you and keep you and your daughter safe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 8:36:27 GMT -5
When my ex needs something she invariably begins reciting her script of how easy she let me off in our settlement, how she could have gotten so much more but she wanted to be civil and as amicable as possible, so I should show some gratitude and give her X or do Y.
At which point I say I can't trust her because she had some thug follow me around, and went through my personal effects including my truck which was not joint property and oh yes her affair but that wasn't an affair because his penis didn't enter any of her orifices and as for Dick Tracy she doesn't know what I'm talking about. And every time I say I can't trust her she says "Why not?"
The best way to communicate with a narcissist? Don't.
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Post by nyartgal on Jul 6, 2016 20:23:23 GMT -5
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Post by ggold on Jul 9, 2016 19:46:46 GMT -5
I am reading 'Emotional Blackmail' by Susan Forward I think many of us are dealing with this in our marriages. Giving in all the time makes you lose your integrety. And doubt about yourself. And the dynamics between the blackmailer and yourself is causing a FOG. Fear Obligation and Guilt. www.amazon.com/Emotional-Blackmail-People-Obligation-Manipulate/dp/0060928972A very interesting website I have just found: Helping family members & loved-ones OF PEOPLE WHO SUFFER FROM PERSONALITY DISORDERS. outofthefog.website/Thank you for this recommendation. I am going to read this!
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Post by Neotericgal on Jul 22, 2016 7:09:05 GMT -5
Oh..my.. gosh. I read this article, and then decided to see how many of these items applied to my relationship. ALL of them, except for item 14. It actually made me feel sick to my tummy when I realized how much this I've endured. What an eye-opener!!! I wish I had seen this article years ago.
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Post by nyartgal on Jul 22, 2016 10:51:15 GMT -5
If I were to design the education system, instead of learning about parabolas and cosigns we would all get Psych 101 and an instructional manual for recognizing and dealing with people who have personality disorders, depression, mental illness etc. It's EVERYWHERE. The number of hours I wasted trying to understand irrational behavior is incalculable. I wish I knew all of this at 15.
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Post by wewbwb on Jul 31, 2016 7:22:05 GMT -5
Fear obligation and guilt are all issues I can relate to.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 1, 2016 15:49:46 GMT -5
Great article - I've seen much of this covered before but this was a really good summary.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 18:31:01 GMT -5
If I were to design the education system, instead of learning about parabolas and cosigns we would all get Psych 101 and an instructional manual for recognizing and dealing with people who have personality disorders, depression, mental illness etc. It's EVERYWHERE. The number of hours I wasted trying to understand irrational behavior is incalculable. I wish I knew all of this at 15. Yup some things there's no equation to fix it.
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Post by obobfla on Aug 1, 2016 19:04:19 GMT -5
If I were to design the education system, instead of learning about parabolas and cosigns we would all get Psych 101 and an instructional manual for recognizing and dealing with people who have personality disorders, depression, mental illness etc. It's EVERYWHERE. The number of hours I wasted trying to understand irrational behavior is incalculable. I wish I knew all of this at 15. I took plenty of psychology in college. None of it could prepare me for when my wife started hearing voices. The best education I ever received on mental illness came from the NAMI Family to Family class, where family members of the mentally ill taught each other. That class is the only way I survived this long. There are a lot of takeaways I got from that class You cannot reason with the seriously mentally ill. Logic does not apply. The voices they hear may not be real, but they are real to them. In order to get them to listen to you, you have to acknowledge their reality first. Only when you can empathize is progress possible. Check out the LEAP method by Xavier Amador - Listen, empathize, agree, and partner. Drugs work, but only to a degree. Without drugs, the severely mentally ill cannot make any progress. But most psychiatric drugs are like buckshot. They hit their target but they hit a lot of other stuff too. There are lots of side effects, and you sometimes need a cocktail of drugs to get the desired effect. It's a lot of trial and error. A diagnosis means little. Sometimes they change. Also the diagnosis may not take into account the severity of the illness. I know some schizophrenic and bipolar people who lead normal lives. Others with the same diagnosis can't make it out of the psych ward. People have the right to be crazy. If the person doesn't want help, there is not much you can do. In order to get someone committed, you must prove that the person is either a threat to himself/herself or others. And if that person gets help and doesn't want to tell you, there is nothing you can do about it. Mental health practitioners are forbidden by law to let you know who their patients are unless they get the patient's written permission. If my wife committed herself to mental hospital and did not tell me, no one at the hospital can even say my wife is a patient there. Compare that to typical medical illnesses where doctors can discuss cases with relatives. Not enough is done for mental illness. It's not a popular option, and it doesn't bring in lots of money. We closed down a lot of mental hospitals, but nothing has been done to replace them. As a result, many mentally ill are homeless or in jail. We leave it up to the police to deal with our mentally ill, and they are not exactly ideal care takers. Many police do get trained in how to deal with the mentally ill, and it is wonderful training. But an untrained officer dealing with a dangerously delusional person can get himself and the other person killed. It's too much to put on law enforcement officers and the criminal justice system. Those who live with the mentally ill get very stressed out. It's a horrible cycle of guilt and resentment. First, I feel bad that my wife is sick and guilty about it. Then I lose my patience and get mad at her. Then I feel guilty for getting mad. Sorry for the long-winded rant, but after dealing with my wife this weekend, I had to let it out.
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Post by petrushka on Aug 1, 2016 20:41:21 GMT -5
<le sigh> Sorry to hear that Oh Bob.
Nothing much to add .... you're right on the button.
One question: do they not have the legal construct of "enduring power of attorney" in your legislation?
I would exactly circumvent that "We can't tell you for privacy reasons" obstacle, which is great in some ways but can be horrifyingly obstructionist at times, particularly if you hit upon a small-minded idiot 'crat. Funnily enough, the people it is really designed to keep out are often the ones who have little trouble getting around it.
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Post by obobfla on Aug 1, 2016 20:50:03 GMT -5
There is a power of attorney, but especially in Florida, they are very protective of the rights of the mentally ill. One reason is that there was a famous case where parents had their 16-year-old son locked away in the Florida State Mental Hospital in Chatahootchie. The boy was locked up until he was 34 and sued to get his way out. His case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. He was assigned to a doctor who had more than 400 other male patients. To make matters worse, the doctor was not even a psychiatrist. He was a gynecologist, assigned to treat male patients.
Most mental health people would love to be able to talk to the families if they could. But the law is rather strict, and they could be sued for malpractice.
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Post by petrushka on Aug 1, 2016 21:07:50 GMT -5
If I were to design the education system, instead of learning about parabolas and cosigns we would all get Psych 101 and an instructional manual for recognizing and dealing with people who have personality disorders, depression, mental illness etc. It's EVERYWHERE. The number of hours I wasted trying to understand irrational behavior is incalculable. I wish I knew all of this at 15. Unfortunately most irrational behaviour is not even due to personality disorders, depression or mental illness. Bone-headedness, wilful ignorance, misplaced faith, gigo (garbage in - garbage out), superstition, bigotry .... Just a little silly example: I see that Meyer Briggs is being thrown around the board again a lot ... I have variously posted on EP (with sources and reasons why and all - but not going to do it yet again) how Meyer Briggs is about as scientific as phrenology or astrology. It's bunkum, it's pop psychology. But just how many people take it seriously nevertheless? Here? Some businesses even started using it as evaluation tool for new hires some time back (I hope that has been abandoned). M/B has no objective value at all in terms of predicting how a person will act or react. It's GiGo. Yet people who don't know that think it's a good tool. Identify with it. Ever seen a - shall we say socially conservative - farmer expound on how homosexuality is 'unnatural'? If he had eyes and a brain, he'd see that he's got a barnyard of animals who engage in homosexual behaviour ... ok, maybe a townie would not know this, but - that farmer is not processing the evidence of his own eyes. The percentile of the general population who actually predominantly make decisions based on logic and careful consideration of pertinent facts and factors is frighteningly small, somewhere in the order of 15%. The other 85% will run with the herd rather than make up their own mind. My 'best code of practice' is this: if I want to understand irrational behaviour, I first look at which direction the herd is charging towards. Mostly that's all the explanation I need.
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