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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 29, 2022 6:59:56 GMT -5
We approached our 25th anniversary and my wife mooned about a renewal of vows.
We'd been on a pretty good run for two years, clocking in an intimate session once every three weeks; an absolute orgy compared with the years before. But the fear wasn't gone, nor is it now. our most recent interval was five weeks and I watch the next one with obsessed interest. I watch and wait for the waning to begin.
These are the conditions she hoped I would declare my devotion to her in front of God and loved ones? Of course, she doesn't know the paranoid fear in my head and heart. A marriage with half an ordinary sex life is good. Is it something I'll be pourring my heart out to all our relations over?
...
I'm sorry to say, no. It isn't. It's acceptable. It's good. After crawling through the desert, a muddy puddle oasis brings relief, joy, and hope. You watch the puddle, hoping it gets bigger so you won't face crawling to another oasis that looks more promising. You're not safe yet.
So, I responded that vows are forever. What's there to renew?
I suspect her idea was some type of promise not to stray from her, after my celibate dating that might have become more. Did she want to reassure herself and I denied her?
Maybe. It could be a false hope and a greater betrayal should I find dating necessary. What vows did she plan?
Just as importantly, and the reason for this post...
What vows could I have renewed?
A renewal of vows would have provided an opportunity to clarify what my vows had meant 25 years ago. They need not have been those we said that day. They can become a new understanding. One that includes the possibility of looking out for each other's needs in unconventional ways. It can serve to demolish notions that marriage can mean growing old together as housemates more intimately connecting with Facebook than their spouse.
I blew it. This was an opportunity to outline and spell out the expectations and standards our refusers abysmally failed to meet. It could nail down and commit to words before a multitude that refusal was not going to be in our future. Or, similarly valuable, it would cancel such a renewal of vows and our refuser could walk away with a greater understanding of what marriage demanded of them and allow them to consider their options.
If you reach this milestone with your spouse, consider accepting and lovingly, collaboratively, cooperatively forging a new agreement with your spouse. It's an opportunity of a lifetime. Accept it.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 29, 2022 14:18:47 GMT -5
mirrorchid: Have you considered bringing up the vow renewal again with your wife, and then talking about what you'd want included? Just because you declined her offer before doesn't mean it's too late to still do it -- and to do it with the kind of vows that you want.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 29, 2022 21:40:31 GMT -5
mirrorchild: Have you considered bringing up the vow renewal again with your wife, and then talking about what you'd want included? Just because you declined her offer before doesn't mean it's too late to still do it -- and to do it with the kind of vows that you want. Y'know, at this point, I'm concerned it would feel like entrapment. I'd appear to be on board, but have this poison pill ready. If she's all gooshy romantic about it, and I end up putting a big ol' price tag on it in terms of meeting my needs? I think she'll feel sucker-punched. Not cool, given what I have experienced as earnest effort from her to be physically closer for over three years now.
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Post by deadzone75 on Dec 30, 2022 11:55:38 GMT -5
The way I see it, all refusers lied once during their vows...stands to reason they would do it a second time. No restructuring of words will make them suddenly want to have sex.
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Post by worksforme2 on Dec 30, 2022 12:09:55 GMT -5
mirrorchild: Have you considered bringing up the vow renewal again with your wife, and then talking about what you'd want included? Just because you declined her offer before doesn't mean it's too late to still do it -- and to do it with the kind of vows that you want. Y'know, at this point, I'm concerned it would feel like entrapment. I'd appear to be on board, but have this poison pill ready. If she's all gooshy romantic about it, and I end up putting a big ol' price tag on it in terms of meeting my needs? I think she'll feel sucker-punched. Not cool, given what I have experienced as earnest effort from her to be physically closer for over three years now. I was tempted to say you are reading too much into it. But after a few minutes getting ready to write I am now thinking perhaps there is a communication breakdown. Do you have any idea of what her proposed renewal of vows might entail. Is it a redo of your original marriage vows or something you two might say if the wedding was to be held today? If the latter, then putting your honest thoughts and emotions into the script should not be anything along the lines of entrapment.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 30, 2022 14:19:03 GMT -5
mirrorchild: Have you considered bringing up the vow renewal again with your wife, and then talking about what you'd want included? Just because you declined her offer before doesn't mean it's too late to still do it -- and to do it with the kind of vows that you want. Y'know, at this point, I'm concerned it would feel like entrapment. I'd appear to be on board, but have this poison pill ready. If she's all gooshy romantic about it, and I end up putting a big ol' price tag on it in terms of meeting my needs? I think she'll feel sucker-punched. Not cool, given what I have experienced as earnest effort from her to be physically closer for over three years now. Have you considered how this reads in describing the base state of your relationship - how you actually feel within the relationship? What's a vow other than a public acknowledgment of intention, agreeing to the responsibilities toward each other in a permanent relationship? Why is it "earnest effort" for her to be physically close with you, rather than delightful. Why would you even want that from someone? Maybe she's seeing it as a romantic gesture, but I suspect at this stage in life with the difficulties you both have endured, it's worth thinking about it seriously. Was she trying to engage you in a relationship discussion? Considering my former marriage - there was a point a year or two after I'd recovered partly from her infidelity in which which I put on my wedding ring again for about a week. She didn't. And then I saw that she seemed annoyed or uncomfortable about the fact that I had mine on. That could have been a cue for me to ask more questions, but I was afraid of the answers (and then I removed my ring because I felt badly being the only one). Considering my present relationship with someone - discussing marriage or some form of formal association. Both of us have been through a rough time in marriage and we're both anxious about it. It's been an interesting discussion - eyes wide open - considering much more closely and wisely what a "marriage" and its components would mean to us.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 4, 2023 7:12:40 GMT -5
Y'know, at this point, I'm concerned it would feel like entrapment. I'd appear to be on board, but have this poison pill ready. If she's all gooshy romantic about it, and I end up putting a big ol' price tag on it in terms of meeting my needs? I think she'll feel sucker-punched. Not cool, given what I have experienced as earnest effort from her to be physically closer for over three years now. I was tempted to say you are reading too much into it. But after a few minutes getting ready to write I am now thinking perhaps there is a communication breakdown. Do you have any idea of what her proposed renewal of vows might entail. Is it a redo of your original marriage vows or something you two might say if the wedding was to be held today? If the latter, then putting your honest thoughts and emotions into the script should not be anything along the lines of entrapment. The entrapment and sucker-punch comes from my having declined the renewal, then accepting, only to offer something that gives me wiggle room if ever she goes celibate again. It gets me what I would need at the expense of what she wants. Excusable if it's her idea, scuzzy if it's now my suggestion. I agree to the "renewal of vows", only to change them, not renew the existing ones. The vows I'd like to essentially switch to would subtly clarify that our relationship with one another will be a physical one. The exclusivity depends on it. It cannot be so subtle she doesn't understand what I'm expecting and that outsourcing is part of what she's agreeing to if teh physical part dwindles unacceptably. I don't think that's what most folks wanting to renew vows are thinking about. The approach I would take is to ask what "To Have and To Hold" means for her. Just let that sink in a little. If it goes sideways, she'll look very sad and say "Forget it." and never bring it up again. That is not a win. As it stands, I've said our vows are forever and at least that expresses confidence in my commitment to her, which is not all bad. I stayed through four years or more of sexless marriage because of those vows. I did not know she'd grow celibate then. I know now. Renewing vows without that honesty would be marrying under the same conditions with far better knowledge of the consequences. If she went celibate again and the words "forsaking all others" was freshly sworn, how much worse would it seem? How much more my faithlessness? Learning about the "Atlas of the Heart" by Brene Brown recently. Wondering where my emotions of "other" are here. Dec 30, 2022 at 2:19pm Post by Apocrypha on Dec 30, 2022 at 2:19pm ...Why is it "earnest effort" for her to be physically close with you, rather than delightful. Why would you even want that from someone?
Maybe she's seeing it as a romantic gesture, but I suspect at this stage in life with the difficulties you both have endured, it's worth thinking about it seriously.
Was she trying to engage you in a relationship discussion?Considering my former marriage - there was a point a year or two after I'd recovered partly from her infidelity in which which I put on my wedding ring again for about a week. She didn't. And then I saw that she seemed annoyed or uncomfortable about the fact that I had mine on. That could have been a cue for me to ask more questions, but I was afraid of the answers (and then I removed my ring because I felt badly being the only one).
Considering my present relationship with someone - discussing marriage or some form of formal association. Both of us have been through a rough time in marriage and we're both anxious about it. It's been an interesting discussion - eyes wide open - considering much more closely and wisely what a "marriage" and its components would mean to us.It takes "earnest effort" because she has menopause issues with PIV and doesn't want to reciprocate my attending to her pleasure any other way. Not entirely true. She's offered, to use the crude vernacular that's too useful not to deploy, "titty fucking", but it's not that great physically and, to me, it's highly impersonal. Objectifying, kind of like masturbating on her. No eye contact, no kissing. Erotic when it's foreplay or novelty, unsettling if it's the intended endgame. I should prioritize her comfort more than my vague discomfort, but the degradation of intimacy is quite an obstacle. I suppose I should revisit that. Once she's decided to be intimate her attention and responsiveness is good and her enjoyment of my affection is strong ("delightful" as you put it.) Even before menopause though, she had "responsive desire" (the term Dr. Pscyhmom taught me), but she put no effort into recognizing that my "spontaneous desire" was being ignored, on average 72 days, waiting for the one day where she either had momentary spontaneous desire that she took advantage of, or put in "earnest effort" to recognize it had been a very very long time since coupling and she was basically neglectful by that time, even by her standards. The "earnest effort" is mental, and before bedroom activity begins. Perhaps that makes a difference in your assessment of my situation as well as what you perceive to be mine. A lot of women make this "earnest effort" regularly and are pleased with the results. They know sex will be good for the two of them, even if it isn't something they physically desire at the moment they mentally decide to be sexual. The generosity and thoughtfulness of this decision to physically love their spouse is a beautiful thing. It's not as though anyone chose to lose spontaneous desire. Choosing to engage responsive desire is a commitment to the marriage.
Was she trying to engage me in a relationship discussion? Why wait for the 25th anniversary for that? The cliché symbolism would ordinarily appeal to me. The scars are still there. Meh, perhaps I'll have to bring up the "Have and Hold" question, artfully, somehow, sometime not in teh context of renewing vows. That could be a barometer for how such renewal could go. If I need another "The Talk" someday, I can start off with that, bearing in mind she may want to alter our agreement in ways I don't expect. Maybe ways I'd not like much. No idea what they'd be, but I can't go in thinking it's Christmas. Listening to polyamory podcasts has made it plain that my navigating marriage through interpretation of perceived hints is manure. Plain communication would be much smarter, more practical, and in all likelihood, effective and produce better results. This old dog needs to learn new tricks. It'd take a lot of adjustment on her part too. Our hint and tone of voice tools are ingrained for 25 years. A mature decision to abandon the emotional and verbal cowardice shouldn't be this hard. The gains ought to be great, the misunderstanding, hurt feelings, unnecessary sacrifice, procrastination, and mild resentment jettisoned. Again, maybe if ever another "The Talk" is required, that's when I can introduce a new paradigm, much like yours. I envy you a little. Perhaps I'll be called upon to thrust forward into battle one day and crash the gates of timidity in marital communication. I'll try to remember to post here if I do.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jan 4, 2023 9:54:24 GMT -5
I was tempted to say you are reading too much into it. But after a few minutes getting ready to write I am now thinking perhaps there is a communication breakdown. Do you have any idea of what her proposed renewal of vows might entail. Is it a redo of your original marriage vows or something you two might say if the wedding was to be held today? If the latter, then putting your honest thoughts and emotions into the script should not be anything along the lines of entrapment. The entrapment and sucker-punch comes from my having declined the renewal, then accepting, only to offer something that gives me wiggle room if ever she goes celibate again. It gets me what I would need at the expense of what she wants. Excusable if it's her idea, scuzzy if it's now my suggestion. I agree to the "renewal of vows", only to change them, not renew the existing ones. The vows I'd like to essentially switch to would subtly clarify that our relationship with one another will be a physical one. The exclusivity depends on it. It cannot be so subtle she doesn't understand what I'm expecting and that outsourcing is part of what she's agreeing to if teh physical part dwindles unacceptably. I don't think that's what most folks wanting to renew vows are thinking about. The approach I would take is to ask what "To Have and To Hold" means for her. Just let that sink in a little. If it goes sideways, she'll look very sad and say "Forget it." and never bring it up again. That is not a win. As it stands, I've said our vows are forever and at least that expresses confidence in my commitment to her, which is not all bad. I stayed through four years or more of sexless marriage because of those vows. I did not know she'd grow celibate then. I know now. Renewing vows without that honesty would be marrying under the same conditions with far better knowledge of the consequences. If she went celibate again and the words "forsaking all others" was freshly sworn, how much worse would it seem? How much more my faithlessness? Learning about the "Atlas of the Heart" by Brene Brown recently. Wondering where my emotions of "other" are here. Just to be sure I understand. She wishes to renew the vows you spoke decades ago. She is asking you to recommit to the status quo of minimal physical expression (PIV), basically on her schedule and to recommit to monogamy with her. This reads as a bit one sided to me. What assurance does she give you that she will not return to refusing at some point in the future? Then what would be your response to basically having been "played"? Would you be looking to break those vows, and in the process demonstrate possibly you weren't really "all in" as the saying goes. If I am understanding what she is asking for then if it were me I would just be non-committal until forced by her to voice a "yea or nea" on the renewal. And I don't think she could fault you for being a bit pro-active in trying to pre-emptively deal with the aspect of her being in the celibate boat, dragging you along with her.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 5, 2023 6:01:13 GMT -5
When I refused to renew vows, this was my understanding of what she wanted from them. I assumed. So you surely cannot understand what she wanted from hearing my side of it, I fear. Expressing interest in what she wanted from the renewal opens the door to a conversation that would prove me right (your summary being accurate) If that were the case, it'd have been a cruelty to bring it up again unless I was prepared to go along with it, cynically; spout the words without meaning them. My sincerity the first time is what allowed the sexless marriage to go as far as it had. She may offer me reassurance if I discussed the renewal again. If she does not and does expect monogamy when some other reason trots along. I'm not prepared to be celibate even in case of medical disability for her. I no longer see the point. I will love, honor, cherish her until death. I'll do that better if I'm not constantly resenting wall-crawling, involuntary chastity. The sexless marriage will not require me to be sexless. Not twice. She doesn't have to wait for teh yea or nay. I already said "nay". This thread was to tell everyone that a vow renewal should not be declined, it should be an opening into negotiating under what circumstances opening teh marriage is permissible. (spouse in a coma for three years, "hall pass" with Benedict Cumberbatch, out of town at least 50 miles away from home, etc.) I hear about men divorcing their wives when terminally ill. Maybe some of that is financial protection. But some of it may be the foolish insistence that marriage must be monogamous, no matter what, or it's a hollow sham. One side of that unchallenged common wisdom is that sexless marriages are mistaken for being monogamous. They aren't, they are agamous. That too should be recognized as a sham. If you hide polygamy, it's scandalous, if you hide agamy, that's par for the course. Society needs to do a better job of conveying the sentiment that a chronic spouse in need is also a sign of a thoroughly damaged marriage.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 5, 2023 13:19:19 GMT -5
mirrorchid: " The entrapment and sucker-punch comes from my having declined the renewal, then accepting, only to offer something that gives me wiggle room if ever she goes celibate again. It gets me what I would need at the expense of what she wants. Excusable if it's her idea, scuzzy if it's now my suggestion."
What about being honest? You turned it down before because you didn't see a way for you to get the kind of marriage you wanted, and you didn't want to endorse the marriage you currently had. But now, you are happier in your marriage, and would like to do a vow renewal because you'd like to celebrate the marriage you now are enjoying. I don't see that as a sucker punch unless she's unhappy with having a sexual marriage. Also perhaps there are things either of you would like to modify from your original vows.
Seems you could use this as an opportunity to talk about what both of you think about your marriage now and to explain why you didn't want to renew vows before.That you were unhappy before but are happy now in your marriage doesn't sound like a suckerpunch message. It also probably would clarify things for her if she learned why you didn't want to renew vows before. Who knows what she thought was the reason?
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 6, 2023 6:06:20 GMT -5
What about being honest? You turned it down before because you didn't see a way for you to get the kind of marriage you wanted, and you didn't want to endorse the marriage you currently had. But now, you are happier in your marriage, and would like to do a vow renewal because you'd like to celebrate the marriage you now are enjoying. I don't see that as a sucker punch unless she's unhappy with having a sexual marriage. Also perhaps there are things either of you would like to modify from your original vows. Seems you could use this as an opportunity to talk about what both of you think about your marriage now and to explain why you didn't want to renew vows before. That you were unhappy before but are happy now in your marriage doesn't sound like a suckerpunch message. It also probably would clarify things for her if she learned why you didn't want to renew vows before. Who knows what she thought was the reason? You've heard teh expression: "The truth hurts." As a clinically depressed person, she suffers from low mood and low self-esteem. What I would want from clarified vows is emphasis on what she provides in scraps. "Shame" is regret about something you've done that you can't do anything about. "Guilt" is something you should do something about but haven't yet or won't. My honesty would verify her possible assumption that our marriage is conditional. She must accept infidelity is she goes celibate again. Conditional love replacing declared (but ultimately false) unconditional love is no celebration, and unromantic. All this hinges on my accurate prediction of her reactions. 25 years gives me a good shot at that, but, as I've said, good communication in pursuit of more functional relationships is a strategy that appeals to me from those poly podcasts, but not one I'm ready to pursue on the off-chance I'm right and my wife won't enjoy overt acknowledgement of reality. The reset has lasted 3 years. I cannot say right now if this level of physical engagement can get me to teh finish line. I am happier. Am I happy enough? Gawd awful thing to say, isn't it? If it dwindles to 9 times a year (technically sexless) am I in it for the long haul? Will my T levels allow me to be perfectly fine with that? Do I have any right to ditch my part of having and holding and forsaking all others even if she already did for four years straight? Society doesn't think so and my wife's expectations of my adhering to society's admonishments are likely fully intact in as much as she's rectified her slip up. It's like my having forgiven her for an affair, that doesn't entitle me to have one too. Not to her mind, nor society in general's. Nothing about a renegotiation makes me come out better and it's highly doubtful she'd enjoy the explicit downgrade of my commitment. There's no upside for either of us. Honesty isn't good in this instance. That's my awful take on it. I'd be curious about modifications she'd want, if there are any. Offering my own and hearing hers is why I regret turning her down and why no one else should if the suggestion comes up. The opportunity to introduce honesty when the other person steps into the bear trap is fine. They basically asked for honesty without realizing it. Not your fault. Problem is, I told her I didn't want to walk down that path and now I know the bear trap is there. I'd be deliberately asking to go down a path I know could maim her leg. In my judgement, she won't like the result and we won't renew our vows anyway. All risk, no reward, for her. Okay, mostly risk. There is a slim chance she'd be okay with honesty. As I said to Apocrypha, offering opportunities for introducing more transparency to the limits of my commitment to monogamy should be something I'm on teh lookout for, but the renewal of vows need not be part of it. If such a conversation made vow renewal plausibly beneficial/uplifting, I could rescind my refusal then.
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Post by sweetplumeria on Jan 7, 2023 3:46:24 GMT -5
I feel like mirrororchid has some pent of feelings, and it's probably good you didn't risk a public flogging for either of you.
That being said I don't think the opportunity for honest conversation is lost at all. At any time you could tell her; I was thinking about the vow renewal and I wanted to know why you wanted it. What's going on in your mind?
Because maybe she thinks she is doing fabulous but if she hasn't addressed your fears and hurts you still have an opportunity to express them. How can she do better if you don't talk about it?
I both feel and read a lot on here about people feeling their age creep up on them but I never hear them say what do I have to lose? What do you lose from the conversation if you can have it without attacking her. Example: It's hard for me to feel confident about a vow renewal because I am still processing anger and resentment or __x__ and I worry about what I might say or do. Something akin to this but most likely 50 times more eloquent. lol
Just food for thought. Round file anything that doesn't resonate with you.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 8, 2023 14:38:00 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this for a while. When people get married, they often have a view of what an imagined marriage to an imagined person will be. Every marriage comes to a point where they have come to an observation of what the actual marriage to the actual person is.
For people facing the stay or leave choice, I've often posed the question to them - splitting off the wedding ceremony from the actual lived married relationship... if you knew you were agreeing to a life of celibacy or a reduction in intimacy from what was available to you as a single man, would either of you say yes to that? In essence, the question is about whether or not the relationship either of you have corresponds to your definition or intention of what a marriage is.
I wondered if this "renewal of vows" idea (coming at this stage in your relationship and after the challenges and gripes you've acknowledged) is her seeking your endorsement to the terms of the relationship as they are, now, and as they have been.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 9, 2023 7:09:42 GMT -5
...I was thinking about the vow renewal and I wanted to know why you wanted it. What's going on in your mind? Because maybe she thinks she is doing fabulous but if she hasn't addressed your fears and hurts you still have an opportunity to express them. How can she do better if you don't talk about it? I both feel and read a lot on here about people feeling their age creep up on them but I never hear them say what do I have to lose? What do you lose from the conversation if you can have it without attacking her. Example: It's hard for me to feel confident about a vow renewal because I am still processing anger and resentment or __x__ and I worry about what I might say or do. Something akin to this but most likely 50 times more eloquent. lol Just food for thought. Round file anything that doesn't resonate with you. I didn't want the renewal. Renewal, to me, means repeating the original vows and celebrating you've kept them and promise to for teh remainder of your life. Apocrypha 's observation that the renewal is to lock in the original vows to justify past neglect and future neglect, if it should happen or should I decide that the status quo is inadequate, despite the vast improvement over sexlessness. My wife's clinical depression expresses as self-loathing to some degree and I'm under teh impression she knows her efforts are not meeting my preferences. If she could do better, I think she would. Depression stops you from acting on what you know to be wise courses of action. You know what you should do, but you can't force yourself to do it. Housework, doctors' appointments, sex... any of it. Had I thought of it, I would have liked to alter our vows to be more realistic and set a floor below which she'd acknowledge that she needs some outside help. We attended a wedding of two senior citizens and their vows were very unconventional. They mentioned dhow people change and with it the marriage will change. It was practical to the point of sterile. It was unnerving; a spoken sword of Damocles. I find it possible that such unromantic vows can be kept for the long haul, but these were not the vows spoken on the day most brides fantasized about in their youth. This was no Cinderella story. Those are the types of vows I'd be looking to inject into any renewal. Not as harsh as theirs, I'm a romantic still, but a signal that our relationship is not the same and may change yet more. That's not a renewal and it isn't what my wife asked for. It likely isn't anything she expected had I agreed to it. This post was to tell everyone that turning a renewal request into a renegotiation is an opportunity to correct problems, or put the refuser on notice that the marriage is not to be held up as a role model to assembled guests. Should reality be acknowledged, perhaps a sexless marriage can be something to recommit to. I'm inclined to think it will only result in food for thought for the refuser. Not sure who said it first, but... don't ask a question you don't want the answer to.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 9, 2023 12:11:26 GMT -5
mirrorchild: "My wife's clinical depression expresses as self-loathing to some degree and I'm under teh impression she knows her efforts are not meeting my preferences. If she could do better, I think she would. Depression stops you from acting on what you know to be wise courses of action. You know what you should do, but you can't force yourself to do it. Housework, doctors' appointments, sex... any of it."
I have suffered from major depression virtually all of my life. My life only turned around when I got on antidepressants about 14 years ago. I literally became a different person.
What you are doing now is enabling your wife in not getting her depression treated. If she can't make a doctor's appointment to get her depression treated, you need to do it just like you'd do it if she were having a heart attack. Depression is that serious. Helping get to her appointments, too would be important as would your having a session with her doctor (with or without her) to describe how her depression has affected your marriage. If she flat out refuses to get treatment then that in itself could be reason to end the marriage. I do think that a spouse's refusal to get treatment for a medical problem that is impacting not only their life but also your life is grounds for divorce just like would if a spouse were an addict and refused to get treatment.
You can not take responsibility for managing her depression by not discussing problems with her. FWIW, when -- after getting on antidepressants and being in effective therapy for several years -- I had built a life that was happy and separate from my roommate refuser I asked for a divorce -- my h immediately accepted. It ended up he'd wanted out too, but hadn't told me what was going on in his head (even though I had repeatedly asked) because he was worried about my history of depression. Hell, my marriage, lack of sex, lack of connection with him was depressing. I wanted out, too, and would have happily agreed to a divorce if he had been honest with me.
So, I don't think you are doing your wife any favors by pussyfooting around when it comes to your marriage. And who knows why she wanted a renewal of vows. You don't know because you never asked her. You've never talked about it.You didn't tell her why you didn't want the renewal either. You seem to be assuming that she just wants to repeat the old vows, but truth is that most marital vows contain "to have and to hold." Seems that a vow renewal could include pastoral counseling or other counseling to make sure you are both on the same page about what you're agreeing to.
mirrorchild: "We attended a wedding of two senior citizens and their vows were very unconventional. They mentioned dhow people change and with it the marriage will change. It was practical to the point of sterile. It was unnerving; a spoken sword of Damocles. I find it possible that such unromantic vows can be kept for the long haul, but these were not the vows spoken on the day most brides fantasized about in their youth. This was no Cinderella story.
I like those vows because I believe they reflect what the couple wants in their marriage. And truth is, marriages change, people change. Nothing remains the same in this world. To acknowledge that is to acknowledge that things that may or may not have been important when one first married, may be less or more important after being married for a while. I'd rather have vows reflecting that than the silly Cinderella stories that most people appear to believe in.
Mirrorchild, I think you would benefit from individual therapy. You have to be getting something personally out of not being direct with your wife and about staying so long and in a sexless marriage. My own experience was that my own fears of confrontation and of expressing my full sexuality contributed greatly to my picking a husband who was uncomfortable with sex and uncomfortable about talking about and expressing emotions. When I lost my own sexual inhibitions and felt that a full sex life was somthing I deserved, and when I lost my fears that if I were honest with him I'd somehow crush him, was when I was able to let go of a marriage that's dysfunction no longer served me.
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