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Post by DryCreek on Aug 30, 2022 11:02:42 GMT -5
So, I guess my questions are: how much more time am I "obligated" to sink into this? Are there any other efforts I should, in good faith, make? There will always be “one more thing” to try, and you will forever have “not done enough”. You need to decide when you’re done and stick to it. You can kick the can down the road one day at a time for decades. I’m living proof. If you are 7 years in, you need to be very mindful that in many jurisdictions alimony kicks in at 10 years. Check with a lawyer and don’t even get close to that line. Kudos for keeping separate accounts, though that may not dictate how assets get split. At least in the meantime you can trust that your funds are secure. You don’t ask or negotiate, you announce your decision and stick to it. If she continues to be belligerent, then you can refuse to speak with her except through your lawyer. You might also want to ensure anything important to you is out of the house first, as she sounds the type that might damage your things in anger.
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Post by mirrororchid on Aug 31, 2022 5:12:19 GMT -5
My philosophy is that if I have to beg/wheedle/argue/cajole for sex from someone... well, I'm not sure I want it.
Good man. Rarely works anyway. None of that shit is a turn-on. No such thing as a "pity-sex fantasy". I am aware some couples try to schedule events, but to me this seems like sexuality with my partner has been demoted to mopping the floor or doing dishes. Not exciting.There have been two developments. One- the other night, my spouse actually said she had no sex drive or desire whatsoever. I already knew this subconsciously, of course, but it was still jarring to hear. Pretty sure my wife schedules us. It's every three weeks, pretty reliably. But... there's this thing called "responsive arousal" many wives don't understand. The mood can follow intimate interaction, rather than precede it. My wife is engaged when she invites me to join her in bed. Good thing. I wouldn't want sex that was just for my sake either. It's possible my wife started with a mindset of annoyed necessity, but discovered quickly that intimacy with her husband is not an ordeal. Orgasms aren't that bad. ... she has used separation as a sort of complaint or threat mechanism.
She'll probably claim I "owe her" more time and effort to improve the marriage. Failing that, she'll probably claim I owe her a long-planned vacation to an exotic destination. ... how much more time am I "obligated" to sink into this? Are there any other efforts I should, in good faith, make? And how does one deal with a partner who cannot or will not react calmly? Have you thanked her for admitting her absence of sex drive? That was helpful to you both. If she gave you an interval of time to fix whatever the issue is, what interval would make you wince, but say "OK"? 3 months? 6 months? a year or two? Take 90% of that number, and offer it as a deadline. If she agrees to your terms, plan that vacation for the week after the deadline. It can serve as a warm, loving goodbye memory, a celebration of your marriage's reignition, or her acquiescence to an open marriage and your loving appreciation of her good horse sense. If she's gobsmacked and thinks you're unreasonable, you aren't just not on the same page, you're not reading the same book. You can understandably say, "Okay, fine, I'll put my profile on OK cupid next week. It'll take me a few months to find someone anyway. You probably have two months. I hope you figure it out, I'd love to not do this." or serve her papers if outsourcing isn't your style, but start fixing the celibacy. No threats, action. If you agree on one, respect that deadline. Blow past it and you'll muddle through in nigh celibacy 'til one of you dies. If the marriage depends on you being miserably celibate, you need to either break the monogamy, or accept the long periods of celibacy. Complaining is done with. You're on ILIASM. You're at a decision point. Refuse to be miserable, through acceptance or liberation. Pick one. Having read other comments, I'd normally be put off by heelot's nuclear reaction, except for the tantrums. Maybe that was his main concern too. They trouble me more than the sexlessness. Maybe use the waiting interval (if you agreed on one) to teach yourself to set boundaries and better tolerate your lover's emotional distress, finding a good balance between sympathy and reason. This will be a necessary skill to navigate a marriage that improves, or your next relationship. You may have some "white knight" issues, rescuing the fair damsel, but unable to prioritize yourself to allow your due; sex being only one thing I suspect you have over-compromised on?
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Post by kilotango on Aug 31, 2022 8:48:06 GMT -5
Greetings everyone,
Thank you for your replies. It has been very insightful reading them. I'll post again, just to try to fill in some gaps. Any further thoughts or opinions are welcome.
Northstarmom is absolutely right. There were red flags all over this thing, I knew about them, and stupidly took the plunge anyway! I won't share excessive detail- not terribly germane anyway- but yeah, the signs were there at the start.
Mirrororchid, you are also correct. I over-compromised on just about everything, even things that in hindsight I shouldn't have. I don't want to admit what this includes, but it was substantial enough that coworkers and professors (I was finishing a degree at that time) expressed concern. What should have been last-ditch, non-negotiable positions just crumbled. I feel bad admitting it now.
I'm not averse to trying to work things out per se. I have even suggested (repeatedly, including in writing) non-PiV, mild kink-type stuff we could do together as an alternative to traditional activities. I've tried alot. I'm sure we all know the usual routine: more housework, more vacations, romantic gifts, improving my fitness... none of it has worked. And that is why I'm dubious about more effort. It has not worked for years- she genuinely appears to not think or care about sex at all. My spouse will offer manual relief if I ask, which simply does not satisfy me. Maybe that's wrong on my part?
Your are correct, though. I'm on ILIASM. Complaint time is long past.
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 31, 2022 11:23:49 GMT -5
kitotango: "the other night, my spouse actually said she had no sex drive or desire whatsoever. I already knew this subconsciously, of course, but it was still jarring to hear. But it's in the open now, and I don't think I can keep pretending everything is OK for her benefit."
For heaven's sake, she has TOLD and SHOWN you she is simply not capable of being in a sexually fulfilling marriage with you. Believe her and cut the cord! There's nothing to work out except to divorce and move on with your life.
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 31, 2022 13:04:01 GMT -5
kilotango, to northstarmom’s point… “When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” As a baseline, decide whether her current level of participation is acceptable, because it’s more likely to go down from here, not up. Given that you’re posting here, you already know that answer. Yes, you might negotiate or cajole her into doing other things sexually, but if she’s just doing them for your benefit I can tell you that gets hollow pretty fast, and it will become a chore for her. When your partner is indifferent to being intimate with you, the act simply doesn’t satisfy many of us here - you’ll have a better experience solo. People who are intimacy-averse simply don’t understand why going through the motions for a physical release isn’t enough to satisfy a sexual person. Objectively, coercing a non-sexual person to be sexual against their nature really isn’t any different than asking a sexual person to give up sex. It’s a different spin on the problem, and it’s likely to just make the other person implode later. I think worksforme2 had this experience.
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Post by h on Aug 31, 2022 14:21:23 GMT -5
If she openly admitted to you that she has no desire for sex at all, take it! Accept it as fact and thank her for her honesty. It's more than many of us will ever get. She has put it out there in plain English that there is no hope for the marriage as a sexual relationship. Now you can openly discuss options to move forward with either opening the marriage or dissolving it. I would be overjoyed if my wife ever gave me that kind of honesty.
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 31, 2022 14:45:32 GMT -5
h "Now you can openly discuss options to move forward with either opening the marriage or dissolving it. I would be overjoyed if my wife ever gave me that kind of honesty."
The OP also can simply proceed with filing for a divorce. Does he really want to stay married to a woman who holds him hostage by having temper tantrums like a toddler?
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Post by heelots on Aug 31, 2022 16:08:35 GMT -5
My philosophy is that if I have to beg/wheedle/argue/cajole for sex from someone... well, I'm not sure I want it.
Good man. Rarely works anyway. None of that shit is a turn-on. No such thing as a "pity-sex fantasy". I am aware some couples try to schedule events, but to me this seems like sexuality with my partner has been demoted to mopping the floor or doing dishes. Not exciting.There have been two developments. One- the other night, my spouse actually said she had no sex drive or desire whatsoever. I already knew this subconsciously, of course, but it was still jarring to hear. Pretty sure my wife schedules us. It's every three weeks, pretty reliably. But... there's this thing called "responsive arousal" many wives don't understand. The mood can follow intimate interaction, rather than precede it. My wife is engaged when she invites me to join her in bed. Good thing. I wouldn't want sex that was just for my sake either. It's possible my wife started with a mindset of annoyed necessity, but discovered quickly that intimacy with her husband is not an ordeal. Orgasms aren't that bad. ... she has used separation as a sort of complaint or threat mechanism.
She'll probably claim I "owe her" more time and effort to improve the marriage. Failing that, she'll probably claim I owe her a long-planned vacation to an exotic destination. ... how much more time am I "obligated" to sink into this? Are there any other efforts I should, in good faith, make? And how does one deal with a partner who cannot or will not react calmly? Have you thanked her for admitting her absence of sex drive? That was helpful to you both. If she gave you an interval of time to fix whatever the issue is, what interval would make you wince, but say "OK"? 3 months? 6 months? a year or two? Take 90% of that number, and offer it as a deadline. If she agrees to your terms, plan that vacation for the week after the deadline. It can serve as a warm, loving goodbye memory, a celebration of your marriage's reignition, or her acquiescence to an open marriage and your loving appreciation of her good horse sense. If she's gobsmacked and thinks you're unreasonable, you aren't just not on the same page, you're not reading the same book. You can understandably say, "Okay, fine, I'll put my profile on OK cupid next week. It'll take me a few months to find someone anyway. You probably have two months. I hope you figure it out, I'd love to not do this." or serve her papers if outsourcing isn't your style, but start fixing the celibacy. No threats, action. If you agree on one, respect that deadline. Blow past it and you'll muddle through in nigh celibacy 'til one of you dies. If the marriage depends on you being miserably celibate, you need to either break the monogamy, or accept the long periods of celibacy. Complaining is done with. You're on ILIASM. You're at a decision point. Refuse to be miserable, through acceptance or liberation. Pick one. Having read other comments, I'd normally be put off by heelot's nuclear reaction, except for the tantrums. Maybe that was his main concern too. They trouble me more than the sexlessness. Maybe use the waiting interval (if you agreed on one) to teach yourself to set boundaries and better tolerate your lover's emotional distress, finding a good balance between sympathy and reason. This will be a necessary skill to navigate a marriage that improves, or your next relationship. You may have some "white knight" issues, rescuing the fair damsel, but unable to prioritize yourself to allow your due; sex being only one thing I suspect you have over-compromised on? My nuclear option had nothing to do with her tantrums ( though that did not help) From my perspective he is in what appears to be a hopeless situation. His position is one that will allow him to make a quick and relatively painless break and not come with excess financial baggage to tote for years to come. A wise man knows to get out while the getting is good. Doing otherwise to me is like tempting a rattlesnake to bite you. I stand by my original assessment of the situation unapologetically. I still maintain it was and is sound and good advice.
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Post by mirrororchid on Aug 31, 2022 17:42:29 GMT -5
h "Now you can openly discuss options to move forward with either opening the marriage or dissolving it. I would be overjoyed if my wife ever gave me that kind of honesty." The OP also can simply proceed with filing for a divorce. Does he really want to stay married to a woman who holds him hostage by having temper tantrums like a toddler? On a self-serving level, it may be helpful for him to learn to build boundaries and not knuckle under to such tantrums within his current marriage so as to not fall into the same trap if another lady pulls the same stunt later. Who knows? If he stops rewarding the tantrums, they might stop. Whether she knows it or not, that'd be a win-win, even if things don't work out. Minus those tantrums, marriage can be a worthwhile environment in which to build a new life. You've no business dating while married (in traditional cases, anyway), so much more of your spare time can be spent spent on introspection, therapy, perhaps, an exercise regimen, classes, or social groups. Stupidly, self-improvement in preparation for departure from an unappreciative spouse occasionally triggers fear in that neglectful spouse. It may be too late by then, but if not, the overdue appreciation can be welcome (making note to draw a hard line not to allow bad habits to slip back in once they've been crushed.) We've said it before. To prepare for divorce, pretend you're single already. Build the life you want, before you need it.
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 31, 2022 18:51:11 GMT -5
mirrorchild said: "On a self-serving level, it may be helpful for him to learn to build boundaries and not knuckle under to such tantrums within his current marriage so as to not fall into the same trap if another lady pulls the same stunt later. Who knows? If he stops rewarding the tantrums, they might stop. Whether she knows it or not, that'd be a win-win, even if things don't work out."
He can learn the same thing if he gets in therapy now so he has support as he divorces. Given his wife's personality, he'll get plenty of opportunities to learn how to set boundaries when she has tantrums during the divorce process.
There are far better ways of learning to set boundaries than continuing an unhappy marriage to get practice in boundary setting. Also, the longer he waits, the higher the opportunity of something happening that would keep him trapped in the marriage. For instance, my ex got kidney cancer a year after we divorced. I wished him well but also was glad I wasn't married to him then because I didn't want to be his caregiver. (BTW, he had surgery, did well, and is still alive and reasonably healthy 8 years later. I continue to wish him well and I also continue being very happy I'm no longer married to him.).
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 31, 2022 18:54:52 GMT -5
I like the logic mirrororchid offers. In the spirit of personal growth and “you’re not going to make it more broken”, there’s value in developing some new habits while you’re still there. One precaution: be conscious of dialing back when you get into a relationship that’s less contentious. “Battle mode” may be appropriate now, but too harsh in a sane relationship. (I find myself in “I ain’t taking crap from nobody” mode and have to ease up in other contexts. Scars run deep.) heelots also makes a pointed assessment. As much as everyone wants to fix situations, this one sounds like very low odds of success.
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 1, 2022 5:45:44 GMT -5
He can learn the same thing if he gets in therapy now so he has support as he divorces. Given his wife's personality, he'll get plenty of opportunities to learn how to set boundaries when she has tantrums during the divorce process. There are far better ways of learning to set boundaries than continuing an unhappy marriage to get practice in boundary setting. Also, the longer he waits, the higher the opportunity of something happening that would keep him trapped in the marriage. For instance, my ex got kidney cancer a year after we divorced. ... Kind of what I had in mind, yeah. If setting boundaries is a hard skill to develop, a therapist would be a good idea to get assistance. Didn't say staying in the unhappy marriage long was a good idea. You made me think about the clock ticking about alimony, if there's going to be any. Depending on the state, alimony gets longer based on a set formula. Knowing that formula may set a good deadline. (Google it, then confirm and calculate a calendar during a first consultation with a divorce lawyer? [talking with a lawyer does not mean your are divorcing! This is intel for if the partner files.]) Bearing in mind that legal proceedings may take longer than expected, adding a bit of wiggle room and filing a bit earlier than you think you have to may save you some time in purgatory. You can divorce people who get sick. Some ILIASM members have stayed because of such things, to be sure, but it was always optional. Had your husband had his cancer, you could still have divorced him. Some spouses do that even when they don't want to, for financial purposes. It's wise to know whether that kind of calamity would chain your heart down, though. Good point.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Sept 2, 2022 22:51:20 GMT -5
Greetings everyone, I'm KiloTango. This is my first thread, though I've been perusing the message boards for a while. I'll try to provide some short backstory before I move onto my questions. I am a male in his mid-30s, dating and married for 6 or 7 years. The sex life was moderately good in the beginning, but now that I look back on it she never really initiated- and when she did, it just seemed awkward. Like someone who understood the physical motions and was trying to imitate them. Anyway, the sex was ok. Fast forward to now, and I'm getting laid maybe once every 2-3 months. It might be less. I once tried to track it on a spreadsheet, and the resultant data was so depressing I gave up. My spouse appears to have no sex drive. I firmly believe that- she just doesn't care for sex, never thinks about it, and could happily do without in perpetuity. So whatever meager amount of sex might occur is solely for my benefit. (There have occasionally been random comments about how "unimportant sex is" and suchlike.) So my questions are: 1. Is it reasonable to want a partner that desires you physically? 2. Is it reasonable to want sex more than (let's say) 4 times a year? 3. Is it normal that, without sex, my outlook on my marriage has shifted more to a roommate mindset? *The more I think about it, the frequency is an issue, but the lack of desire bothers me more. Short answer is yes. Those are so normal expectations and desires. Run...
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Post by sweetplumeria on Sept 7, 2022 4:37:14 GMT -5
Greetings everyone, I'm KiloTango. This is my first thread So my questions are: 1. Is it reasonable to want a partner that desires you physically? 2. Is it reasonable to want sex more than (let's say) 4 times a year? 3. Is it normal that, without sex, my outlook on my marriage has shifted more to a roommate mindset? *The more I think about it, the frequency is an issue, but the lack of desire bothers me more. After I was unbrainwashed from thinking I was a nymphomaniac or too fat that no man would ever want sex with me. When I finally decided if I just fixed my problem and outsourced I would fix the problem and I could move on with life. I was wrong. I had been so conditioned to think it was my fault that I lost sight of how much intimacy adds to a relationship. All the trust and reassuring is gone. What's left after that? Roomates... maybe if you haven't gotten to the really jaded and cynical part yet.
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