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Post by heelots on Nov 2, 2021 15:28:45 GMT -5
I had a talk with my wife once about opening our marriage. It was an unplanned conversation. If a person was to have this conversation, it would be wise to think about it ahead of time!! (Don't be an idiot like this writer was!) The context of this conversation was that I had fallen in love with another woman. My wife realized something was up, so she began asking very uncomfortable questions. I tried ducking her questions, but she immediately recognized what I was doing. She started turning up the "heat". I did NOT want to talk about this other woman, or my relationship with the other woman. (My wife knows her!) So, finally, without thinking, I just blurted out, "Why would you have a problem with me having sex with someone else, I would NOT be taking any thing away from you that you want!" That conversation got real heated immediately!!! After an intense argument, my wife finally asked, "So what do you want?" I sat there in silence, thinking, for a long time. Then I finally replied, "I want what I can't have?" "What is that", she asked? "You", I quietly replied. We had a very long heart to heart talk after that. For the first time in far to many years, she listened to me. Really listened. (Her listening skills typically suck!) Bottom line: Since that time, she has been attempting to have meet my sexual needs. The marriage is not perfect by any means, but it has improved considerably. Asking the question about opening the marriage turned out good for us. I would NOT recommend going about it in the manner which I followed though!!! I believe that falling in love with that other woman was what it took to get my wife's attention. I had voiced my frustrations about our marriage many times, but she always ignored me. She did not believe I would ever leave her for any reason. When she realized I was seriously considering exiting the marriage, that got her attention. That is what it took to bring about change. Very fortunate the way that worked out for you. I have never even cheated, but if I attempted such a conversation with my wife I am positive she would divorce me on the spot as she is just too stubborn and too blind to see.
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Post by Handy on Nov 2, 2021 20:56:38 GMT -5
The explorer I believe that falling in love with that other woman was what it took to get my wife's attention. I had voiced my frustrations about our marriage many times, but she always ignored me. She did not believe I would ever leave her for any reason. When she realized I was seriously considering exiting the marriage, that got her attention. That is what it took to bring about change.
I think that wen and only when a spouse sees the potential or likely end of a relationship is the only time for most reluctant spouse to do anything to keep the marriage viable.
In other words, it takes being willing to ending the marriage to make any progress.
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 2, 2021 23:09:09 GMT -5
I believe that falling in love with that other woman was what it took to get my wife's attention. I had voiced my frustrations about our marriage many times, but she always ignored me. She did not believe I would ever leave her for any reason. When she realized I was seriously considering exiting the marriage, that got her attention. That is what it took to bring about change. Falling in love with another woman did not get your wife's attention. She didn't know you had fallen for anyone when it happened. It was the frank discussion in which you indicated that you had already accepted that your wife was not your partner that got her attention. Her realization that there were other possible viable prospects for you - that the default wasn't necessarily celibacy - got her attention. No one actually has to have the affair for this to finally be treated seriously. It's not the affair itself; it's the realization that the status quo is no longer an option, and that you are willing to choose a different option independently. As Handy says, the only thing that will cause this to be taken seriously, is a serious intention to end the status quo by whatever means are at your disposal. Separation papers, the discovery of an affair, informing them of an open marriage - with the full knowledge that the marriage as it was, is over, and acceptance of divorce as a possible and acceptable outcome. Nothing else will center this.
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 4, 2021 12:29:57 GMT -5
As Handy says, the only thing that will cause this to be taken seriously, is a serious intention to end the status quo by whatever means are at your disposal. Separation papers, the discovery of an affair, informing them of an open marriage - with the full knowledge that the marriage as it was, is over, and acceptance of divorce as a possible and acceptable outcome. Nothing else will center this. My wife got real suspicious that I was doing something behind her back. (Based on how I was acting!) When she confronted me with her suspicions, she figured it out in less than 60 seconds! So in my case, it was a discovery of an emotional affair. There were several things which minimized the damage on my marriage. First, the deal with this other woman had just started. I was not emotionally attached to the other woman, so it was easy for me to walk away. I wrote earlier that I fell in love with the other woman. It would probably be more accurate to say I was infatuated with this other woman. Secondly, my wife is a very logical thinker. (Her thinking is often more like a man than a woman.) Once I explained how I viewed our marriage, she realized that the way she had been treating me contributed to what I did. Thirdly, I took responsibility for what I had done. I told my wife everything and answered all her questions. I did not lie or attempt to hide anything. (No point in that, because I'm a lousy liar!!) My situation could have turned out vastly worse!!! It was unplanned, unscripted and not even slightly planned out in advance! I do NOT want to divorce, because the jurisdiction where I live has life-time alimony. So, falling for another woman was an ultra dumb move! The main point I am attempting to make by telling this story is that asking about having an open marriage could turn a marriage around.
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 4, 2021 15:02:30 GMT -5
As Handy says, the only thing that will cause this to be taken seriously, is a serious intention to end the status quo by whatever means are at your disposal. Separation papers, the discovery of an affair, informing them of an open marriage - with the full knowledge that the marriage as it was, is over, and acceptance of divorce as a possible and acceptable outcome. Nothing else will center this. My wife got real suspicious that I was doing something behind her back. (Based on how I was acting!) When she confronted me with her suspicions, she figured it out in less than 60 seconds! So in my case, it was a discovery of an emotional affair. There were several things which minimized the damage on my marriage. First, the deal with this other woman had just started. I was not emotionally attached to the other woman, so it was easy for me to walk away. I wrote earlier that I fell in love with the other woman. It would probably be more accurate to say I was infatuated with this other woman. Secondly, my wife is a very logical thinker. (Her thinking is often more like a man than a woman.) Once I explained how I viewed our marriage, she realized that the way she had been treating me contributed to what I did. Thirdly, I took responsibility for what I had done. I told my wife everything and answered all her questions. I did not lie or attempt to hide anything. (No point in that, because I'm a lousy liar!!) My situation could have turned out vastly worse!!! It was unplanned, unscripted and not even slightly planned out in advance! I do NOT want to divorce, because the jurisdiction where I live has life-time alimony. So, falling for another woman was an ultra dumb move! The main point I am attempting to make by telling this story is that asking about having an open marriage could turn a marriage around. Yes very much. A minor but significant distinction: I've seen a number of people on this board "ask" about an open marriage and it did nothing. The averse partner, realizing there was no upside for them, said "No thanks", and that was that. The abandoned partner did nothing and status quo kept on. I've seen a very few people on this board "tell": offering a choice of two paths: divorce or open marriage (and if "open" - a negotiation of how involved the other partner wanted to be and what the rules would be). If there is a clear and imminent plan - an assured ticking clock and/or actual experiences that are known to both parties - this removes the "default celibacy" option from the table and attaches a consequence to doing nothing. It has a way of focusing attention to get to the truth of the situation, one way or another. It puts the time pressure on the averse partner to resolve their issue in the relationship, or to end the relationship, rather than putting the pressure on the abandoned partner to endure feeling alone. I've also seen quite a few times when that discussion was taken as carte blanch on the part of the partner approached (whether averse or not) as carte blanche to do what they want and not tell their partner - to cheat - with devastating consequences. I agree, simply having the conversation is a game changer - so it's important that it isn't had casually or offhand, and that it's fully thought through what is or isn't acceptable from either partner, the first time you have the conversation.
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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 4, 2021 16:40:20 GMT -5
The main point I am attempting to make by telling this story is that asking about having an open marriage could turn a marriage around. Yes very much. It puts the time pressure on the averse partner to resolve their issue in the relationship, or to end the relationship, rather than putting the pressure on the abandoned partner to endure feeling alone. I agree, simply having the conversation is a game changer - so it's important that it isn't had casually or offhand, and that it's fully thought through what is or isn't acceptable from either partner, the first time you have the conversation. In my own case I had this conversation taking the approach if she would be willing to accept a "don't ask, don't tell" regarding a FWB for me. I assured her if I began to have feelings for the other woman I would end that relationship. And that i would not be leaving the marriage. But my W was unwilling to share me. Instead she initiated a 3 month reset that was pretty well filled with sex and intimacy. But after 3 months she returned to refusing and we later agreed to end things. So if one is thinking of having this conversation one should be prepared for one's refuser to end the marriage rather than accept a 3rd party in the marriage.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 4, 2021 19:25:59 GMT -5
The following means the refuser is more willing to end the marriage than to have sex with you. “ So if one is thinking of having this conversation one should be prepared for one's refuser to end the marriage rather than accept a 3rd party in the marriage. ”
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 5, 2021 9:07:03 GMT -5
In my own case I had this conversation taking the approach if she would be willing to accept a "don't ask, don't tell" regarding a FWB for me. I assured her if I began to have feelings for the other woman I would end that relationship. And that i would not be leaving the marriage. But my W was unwilling to share me. “Don’t ask, don’t tell” is the riskiest of the open marriage formats, in that it becomes a distinction without a difference from an affair. The onus to keep it secret from your spouse requires an enormous effort and compromises on your part and forms an adversarial situation at home. It ends up that your spouse thinks that ANY and all time away is spent chasing or being with other women. It also means that when she eventually finds out (because she will look), you will already be out on the end of a thin branch, having been in a sexual relationship with someone for quite some time. If she’s not comfortable with the partner or with you even just having a chaste date (which could be stopped or vetoed early), you are already well past that. At which point, despite your agreement, it gets treated like an affair.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 5, 2021 9:33:14 GMT -5
"I assured her if I began to have feelings for the other woman I would end that relationship. And that i would not be leaving the marriage. But my W was unwilling to share me."
Of course. It's because she realizes that if you began to love someone whom you were having sex with, you'd have no reason to stay in a crappy marriage in which your wife is incapable of loving you in a way that allows you to feel loved. Honestly, if you had a lover who loved you and whom you loved why would you stay with your wife?
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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 5, 2021 9:58:36 GMT -5
In my own case I had this conversation taking the approach if she would be willing to accept a "don't ask, don't tell" regarding a FWB for me. I assured her if I began to have feelings for the other woman I would end that relationship. And that i would not be leaving the marriage. But my W was unwilling to share me. “Don’t ask, don’t tell” is the riskiest of the open marriage formats, in that it becomes a distinction without a difference from an affair. The onus to keep it secret from your spouse requires an enormous effort and compromises on your part and forms an adversarial situation at home. It ends up that your spouse thinks that ANY and all time away is spent chasing or being with other women. It also means that when she eventually finds out (because she will look), you will already be out on the end of a thin branch, having been in a sexual relationship with someone for quite some time. If she’s not comfortable with the partner or with you even just having a chaste date (which could be stopped or vetoed early), you are already well past that. At which point, despite your agreement, it gets treated like an affair. I generally agree with most of your posts but I believe we are on different trajectories when thinking of a "don't ask, don't tell' arrangement with one's spouse. My concept has both parties aware that a romantic interlude may well be in the offering when one's spouse preens and dresses to impress before exiting the house. One doesn't go all out when headed to KFC for a box of fried chicken. If both parties agree that the sexual component of a relationship is to be "farmed out" then I don't see why it needs or should become adversarial. There is no "finding out". The other spouse already knows what may be happening when one is away for the evening. The agreement is to not bring up the subject unless there is a justifiable reason. If one's partner is not comfortable with the 3rd party then the basic "don't ask, don't tell" arrangement may need to be reworked or some other approach considered. I agree one could be out on a thin branch. If sex is even considered as happening outside the marriage, the marriage is already pretty far out on that limb unless both parties have bought in to the arrangement. And I would concur that having a FWB has many of the characteristics of an affair, since one is limiting the outsourcing to just one other person. But an affair implies to me the 3rd party is essentially a romantic partner and when that is the case it takes on a whole new dimension than that of a FWB.
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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 5, 2021 10:08:29 GMT -5
"I assured her if I began to have feelings for the other woman I would end that relationship. And that i would not be leaving the marriage. But my W was unwilling to share me." Of course. It's because she realizes that if you began to love someone whom you were having sex with, you'd have no reason to stay in a crappy marriage in which your wife is incapable of loving you in a way that allows you to feel loved. Honestly, if you had a lover who loved you and whom you loved why would you stay with your wife? The purpose behind being willing to end a FWB arrangement if it begins to become a love affair is so that the marriage is not threatened . When I approached my spouse with this proposal I still loved her very much and I wanted the marriage to continue. I was also deriving a goodly number of positive benefits from the marriage. But the intimacy and the sexual components were missing. I did not have it in mind to look for love. You need only look in the "Staying" theme and reading the numerous posts on other themes to see that many if not most people here choose to stay in their marriages.
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 5, 2021 11:29:11 GMT -5
If your spouse is watching you shower and dress for a hot Friday night out and you roll in at 2am and take another shower, that’s closer to a wittol relationship- a knowing, supportive and involved open relationship. It's not what I have seen as a "Don't ask". You may think the averse spouse is asking you to be discrete in front of others. I’m suggesting it’s more likely that the spouse herself doesn’t want to know when and if it is happening at all, because he/she doesn’t want to deal with the reality of it. She might not know your partner's name, but she knows exactly what and when, or will make it up. I’ve been through this in the first don’t ask, don’t tell agreement I had with Mrs Apocrypha, before it collapsed. I’ve seen others as well. It’s easy to think you have agreement when really what you have is acquiescence to something that truly is not supported, and isn’t taken seriously or dealt with in the moment. It's deferred.
In an open relationship with transparency, it would become apparent early on that the spouse actually doesn’t support it and you can deal with that in close to real time. For example, " I agree to you going out with her and a kiss goodnight, and I'd like to meet her myself."
In a don’t ask don’t tell, it could become apparent after you have already banged someone, which makes it unrecoverable and changes the conversation from your marital dysfunction to now be about you banging other chicks. This may be the intent of the averse spouse who then gets to characterize you as a cheater or a pervert when people ask why you split, confident in the knowledge that nobody is going to care much about any fine mince --your request for an open relationship then becomes the reason for divorce and she gets to be the hero in her own mind. If she feels differently after finding out, then don't count on her acting within the bounds of what was agreed.
If your "don't ask don't tell" ends up in catastrophe, questions, etc when she finds out - a common result - then it's really distinction without a difference. She doesn't actually support the affair and will act accordingly. And in my experience, it ended up that every time I left the house - to have a beer with a buddy, or to play a boardgame - I returned home to a psychotically irate wife who was absolutely out of control paranoid, and clearly unsupportive.
My understanding of affair is simply an extra marital relationship the spouse isn't aware of doesn’t support. It could be romantic or non. Many start as FWB and then develop into more. I have seen/met several people in open relationships who had affairs. That is to say, they went out of established norms or rules for the relationships they had and their spouse did not support them. That's to say, they started a relationship of some kind (most frequently after the husband had an initial unresolved conversation floating the idea) and did not tell their spouse.
As general advice evident from our different understandings of terms - it's vital to define in as practical terms as possible what people mean to avoid misunderstandings.
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 5, 2021 13:08:41 GMT -5
"I assured her if I began to have feelings for the other woman I would end that relationship. And that i would not be leaving the marriage. But my W was unwilling to share me." Of course. It's because she realizes that if you began to love someone whom you were having sex with, you'd have no reason to stay in a crappy marriage in which your wife is incapable of loving you in a way that allows you to feel loved. Honestly, if you had a lover who loved you and whom you loved why would you stay with your wife? The purpose behind being willing to end a FWB arrangement if it begins to become a love affair is so that the marriage is not threatened . When I approached my spouse with this proposal I still loved her very much and I wanted the marriage to continue. I was also deriving a goodly number of positive benefits from the marriage. But the intimacy and the sexual components were missing. I did not have it in mind to look for love. You need only look in the "Staying" theme and reading the numerous posts on other themes to see that many if not most people here choose to stay in their marriages. I get that you loved your wife and wanted the marriage to continue. Same with me and my wife, when I was in various iterations of the same deal across several years in my latter marriage. I understand your perspective, for the path you proposed. What I found out from doing it, is that once in - it changed my mindset completely about what I was willing to accept in ANY relationship. My standards went up, and what I offered went up. Doing this kind of thing - affair or open - is like walking off a cliff. You can offer assurances or receive them, but what happens the moment your heel takes to air, can't be known. From your wife's perspective in the example, northstarmom 's analysis of the math is dude-perfect. I've also, post marriage, been in a relationship with someone who was in a celibate marriage. We can go in with a promise to never feel a certain way, but as we find out - we really aren't in charge of that - only of what we do. So anyone embarking on such a pitch would likely want to address that in the pitch.
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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 5, 2021 15:38:00 GMT -5
The purpose behind being willing to end a FWB arrangement if it begins to become a love affair is so that the marriage is not threatened . When I approached my spouse with this proposal I still loved her very much and I wanted the marriage to continue. I was also deriving a goodly number of positive benefits from the marriage. But the intimacy and the sexual components were missing. I did not have it in mind to look for love. You need only look in the "Staying" theme and reading the numerous posts on other themes to see that many if not most people here choose to stay in their marriages. I get that you loved your wife and wanted the marriage to continue. Same with me and my wife, when I was in various iterations of the same deal across several years in my latter marriage. I understand your perspective, for the path you proposed. What I found out from doing it, is that once in - it changed my mindset completely about what I was willing to accept in ANY relationship. My standards went up, and what I offered went up. Doing this kind of thing - affair or open - is like walking off a cliff. You can offer assurances or receive them, but what happens the moment your heel takes to air, can't be known. From your wife's perspective in the example, northstarmom 's analysis of the math is dude-perfect. I've also, post marriage, been in a relationship with someone who was in a celibate marriage. We can go in with a promise to never feel a certain way, but as we find out - we really aren't in charge of that - only of what we do. So anyone embarking on such a pitch would likely want to address that in the pitch. In retrospect my perspective on my having a FWB may have been too simplistic. I was trying to look at it logically and perhaps my logic was faulty. I reasoned that perhaps I would be able to have sex and perhaps intimacy and my W would be able to avoid having to fend me off constantly. I promised not to fall in love or deprive her of the benefits she enjoyed in the marriage. Perhaps I didn't reason out every possible contingency but at the time it seemed reasonable that she might be willing to go along and avoid the drama and build up of animosity toward each other. My then W never exhibited any signs of jealousy when I interacted with other women so it seemed worth a try. I suppose if I were to characterize my sexual history it would best be described as "serial monogamy". One woman at the time is how I preferred it. Still do. So I would continue to reserve my love for the W and seek to avoid any deep emotional attachment to a lover. At least that was the plan. Since it never came to fruition I'll never know if we could have made it work. I expect it would not have worked since the W was adamantly opposed to the idea of another woman in the mix. But I was completely out of other ideas and the path we were headed down only seemed to have one destination. Turns out we ended up at that destination anyway.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 6, 2021 12:58:53 GMT -5
" The purpose behind being willing to end a FWB arrangement if it begins to become a love affair is so that the marriage is not threatened . When I approached my spouse with this proposal I still loved her very much and I wanted the marriage to continue. I was also deriving a goodly number of positive benefits from the marriage. But the intimacy and the sexual components were missing. I did not have it in mind to look for love. You need only look in the "Staying" theme and reading the numerous posts on other themes to see that many if not most people here choose to stay in their marriages."
I fully understand that many wish to stay in their marriages. I doubt that many would stay in their marriages if they had an outside lover whom they loved and who loved them. It's easy to say that one would cut off an outside relationship if one fell in love with one's lover. It's harder to do that especially if one's lover also loves you.
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