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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2020 17:33:27 GMT -5
Last week my wife and I had a pretty good row (not physical, just an argument that got deeper than the normal spat). It occurred to me that not only has my marriage never included "make up sex", my wife is uninterested in any reconciliation at all. The issue was that we had our final home inspection, it's been under construction for 13 months and I'm the contractor and a lot of the labor. There were a few corrections, nitpicky stuff but my wife blew up and began to question whether I knew what I was doing, did I ask the right questions of the inspector, etc. I answered with an equally snarky reply.
So, fast forward about six hours, I sent a text. "I understand you have nothing left in the tank. It was selfish of me to reply the way I did. You have every right to feel the way you feel, including being upset with me".
I've developed a habit of not saying the word "sorry" because my wife doesn't ever apologize. OK, not quite true, I can remember a couple times in a 32 year relationship.
Anyway. There's never a reconciliation. We just ignore what occurred and go back to the usual dealing with the details of life. It's just so un-marriage like. No sitting together, no kisses any longer (not even pecks), no sexual contact in over a year, no actual PIV sex in two years. Not good.
Do you all feel that the loss of physical intimacy has also impacted that there's no common ground to come back together? How do you manage to reconcile?
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Post by Handy on Nov 12, 2020 18:47:19 GMT -5
Tooyoungtobeold, I am going to ask, was your W correct to assume you did something wrong or failed to ask the right questions? Did she do as much physical work on the new house as you did? Your W assuming you don't know what you are doing seems to be a fallacy she has about building a house, unless you don't know how to do some phases of construction. My W assumed I could go to the hardware store and buy a part for out 45 year old house. Sorry W, some of the plumbing fittings have changed since 1974. Some people think they are experts when it comes to building things because they watch the home remodeling programs on TV, my W included. My suggestion is don't back down if you know you did the right things or something close. Also, very few people get a 100% approval on a final home inspection. To sort of answer your questions, some things are not fixable and no common ground is a big issue to the divide in many areas of living together. To me apologizing when you are mostly right is a bad move.
Sometimes the more you give to people, the more they want and the less satisfied they become. I am an example of what I just wrote. It didn't improve anything and when I hit empty for the umpteenth time, I finally quit trying to please my W. Now I do what I see as correct if I was dealing with the general public opr a cranky customer.
If the home inspection was about your W's abilities, would you treat her like she is treating you?
I try to put myself in the inspectors position, your W position and your position and then come up with a plan to move forward. That is my advice and how I see things.
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Post by jerri on Nov 13, 2020 4:28:22 GMT -5
Last week my wife and I had a pretty good row (not physical, just an argument that got deeper than the normal spat). It occurred to me that not only has my marriage never included "make up sex", my wife is uninterested in any reconciliation at all. The issue was that we had our final home inspection, it's been under construction for 13 months and I'm the contractor and a lot of the labor. There were a few corrections, nitpicky stuff but my wife blew up and began to question whether I knew what I was doing, did I ask the right questions of the inspector, etc. I answered with an equally snarky reply. So, fast forward about six hours, I sent a text. "I understand you have nothing left in the tank. It was selfish of me to reply the way I did. You have every right to feel the way you feel, including being upset with me". ETA :A therapist once told me do not apologize for something reasonable or something that you will be doing again.
But I will address this based on the apology. I am also addressing this based on building rather than contributing to less intimacy. Of course my first reaction is to shake your wife and ask what's wrong with her! Also I do understand that she was probably just getting emotional because she thought that the place may not get inspected or approvedI can't speak to the content of the conversation because I don't know exactly what was said. I know that in my own relationship we try not to go to bed with unresolved issues,and at that point,we will usually show some form of intimacy, even if we don't apologize. Even a simple good night, love. That doesn't mean we agree on the matter.
I like the way you handled the tiff and apologies don't cost money! when I tell my husband that my behavior was off, l usually earn brownie points for that, and he will also be very kind and gracious in response. It also adds to my intimacy bank account and I can feel good when I go to bed :-)I've developed a habit of not saying the word "sorry" because my wife doesn't ever apologize. OK, not quite true, I can remember a couple times in a 32 year relationship. No worries, precious one! Go with the flow. I don't know many who apologize.Anyway. There's never a reconciliation. We just ignore what occurred and go back to the usual dealing with the details of life. It's just so un-marriage like. No sitting together, no kisses any longer (not even pecks), no sexual contact in over a year, no actual PIV sex in two years. Not good. Kudos to you for being the contractor! I have wrote about it before, but you are amazing and should be very proud. I have been involved in remodeling every property I own and things Inevitably go wrong left and right! It's a huge pain in the butt! we tend to get very critical of our own work but other people will see the beauty. He will see every little flaw or every little thing that you wanted but couldn't do Before inspection. And those remodeling shows they are not on time and they are usually way over budget and that's a given . I hope you're not too hard on yourself because it is very stressful ! Do you all feel that the loss of physical intimacy has also impacted that there's no common ground to come back together? How do you manage to reconcile? I built it up little by little. He was not reciprocating first but those small things turn to larger things. start with something small until you get your date night back.I started kissing my husband's shoulder at first. after all, he was mad at me for wanting to step out of the marriage for sex. I received a bunch of little yeses in a row. it's not like he was reciprocating at first and that was painful, but over time those small things turned into larger things. until I was abl to create date nights that built the intimacy back up but I understand if that's not the direction you want to go at this time and I wouldn't blame you a bit! it must be frustrating to work and then have someone nitpick the final result when you worked so hard! I think all of my hair would be pulled out by now! It's hard to build intimacy when the other person is critical and not very loving.
I will say I did it when I wasn't really feeling it and then it became much more real and loving later
You got this! High five đź’ś and a tight hug |
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 13, 2020 6:06:23 GMT -5
.... "I understand you have nothing left in the tank. It was selfish of me to reply the way I did. You have every right to feel the way you feel, including being upset with me". I've developed a habit of not saying the word "sorry" because my wife doesn't ever apologize....We just ignore what occurred and go back to the usual dealing with the details of life. It's just so un-marriage like. No sitting together, no kisses any longer (not even pecks), no sexual contact in over a year, no actual PIV sex in two years. Not good. Do you all feel that the loss of physical intimacy has also impacted that there's no common ground to come back together? How do you manage to reconcile? Handy addressed this darn well, but you asked a question at the end, so I'll slip the comments in first. "It's just so un-marriage like."Then you mention moving on after an unsettled spat. It happens in my marriage. I imagine that a failure to address a recurring problem can diminish impressions that your spouse cares about your wants and desires. When someone doesn't care about you, desire for that spouse could falter. Your apology makes me think that isn't the case. It may be she's under the impression you ignore her desire a lot more than you do. That can get pathological. Perhaps many a refuser finds themselves withholding deliberately or instinctually because they feel, unreasonably that their spouse does not love them. They may feel disconnection after each disagreement. Lack of sex can make a refused spouse a bit less inclined to indulge a spouse. Disagreements may mount adding confirmation to the delusion a refuser is unloved. Sex produces behavioral changes for me. Protective, indulgent, grateful feelings lead me to be a generous, thoughtful husband that takes special initiative to find pleasant things to do for her. I'm aware of this change and do not fight it. It could come across as manipulative. As if I'm administering rewards for intimacy. No, dear... that's my Y chromosome activating. Just enjoy it. I do. To your point, sex may be literally "making love". I feel much closer to my wife afterwards and seek out opportunities to make my wife happier. This can lead to a willingness to let small stuff slide instead of fixating and obsessing. If you're happy, small problems can be ignored. If you're unhappy, every problem is a part of it. Last thing, you. "I understand you have nothing left in the tank. It was selfish of me to reply the way I did. You have every right to feel the way you feel, including being upset with me".
And after building a flipping house, you have something left in the tank? Maybe you didn't and that's why you popped off. Maybe you just refill quicker which is why you're the first to apologize. It troubles me a great deal that you're sorry you have more energy and emotional resilience than your wife. Blaming yourself for being strong and thinking because you still have strength left that every ounce of it belongs to her. It's the kind of apology I'd expect from lessingham. His self-esteem is on the floor and no one can find a spatula thin enough (he's working on it though, bless him) How many thousands did you save not hiring someone else? How much are the mistakes costing? Even if it cost more doing it yourself, were there benefits you'll receive down the road? (You know exactly how to fix the stuff you personally made) Like lessingham, maybe you've slipped into the role of employee? You and your wife are partners. Bosses fire employees and the company stands. When partners leave, the company is dissolved. Perhaps this was an "I told you so" moment? Fine. When I find people thinking they've got a slamdunk just citing past mistakes, I concede. "Fine, what do we do about it? Where do we go from here?" Such people have no step 2. They like to bitch, but they have no answers. Call them out enough, they tend to stop complaining because it's humbling to come up empty again and again. TL;DR.
You built a gaddam house, you tried real hard. You almost nailed it. "You're welcome, dear." |
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Post by jerri on Nov 13, 2020 7:54:35 GMT -5
Is she good to you in any way?
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Post by baza on Nov 13, 2020 21:34:30 GMT -5
Brother @tooyoungtobeold2 .
A bit of pressure on a relationship will invariably bring some truths to light about the relationship.
Now being in an ILIASM deal certainly puts pressure on a relationship.
All sorts of things can put additional pressure on, like illness, financial issues etc etc.
And I reckon "building your own house" would be right up there as a pressure creating situation.
So the big question is - how has your relationship come through the pressures ? What truths have been brought out into the open ?
And "what now" ?
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Post by petrushka on Nov 14, 2020 0:54:48 GMT -5
Last week my wife and I had a pretty good row (not physical, just an argument that got deeper than the normal spat). It occurred to me that not only has my marriage never included "make up sex", my wife is uninterested in any reconciliation at all. The issue was that we had our final home inspection, it's been under construction for 13 months and I'm the contractor and a lot of the labor. There were a few corrections, nitpicky stuff but my wife blew up and began to question whether I knew what I was doing, did I ask the right questions of the inspector, etc. I answered with an equally snarky reply. So, fast forward about six hours, I sent a text. "I understand you have nothing left in the tank. It was selfish of me to reply the way I did. You have every right to feel the way you feel, including being upset with me". I've developed a habit of not saying the word "sorry" because my wife doesn't ever apologize. OK, not quite true, I can remember a couple times in a 32 year relationship. Anyway. There's never a reconciliation. We just ignore what occurred and go back to the usual dealing with the details of life. It's just so un-marriage like. No sitting together, no kisses any longer (not even pecks), no sexual contact in over a year, no actual PIV sex in two years. Not good. Do you all feel that the loss of physical intimacy has also impacted that there's no common ground to come back together? How do you manage to reconcile?
1 - I just know that, if my wife gets a fright, a shock, a surprise, or is stressed - there will be some kind of passive aggressive snark. I have learned to simply ignore it. She doesn't really mean it, it's a knee jerk reaction, it's how she was raised. I ignore it and she comes back to me shortly after in a reconciliatory mode. That can be something like bringing me a cup of coffee ... like yours, she finds it hard to apologize. 1a -the 'fast forward': I wouldn't do that. In my circumstance I know that NOT PLAYING the passive aggressive game is what kills it. So I just write it off as irrelevant background noise and do not react. Took me about 10 years to figure that out. If I don't play, she doesn't start it, or at least doesn't carry on with it. Incidentally I made this plain, when we had The Talk. I told her passive aggressive games or gaslighting are right out -- I find it hard enough to suppress my own p-a snark, my mother was an expert so I learned it early in life. Plus, I have a cynical streak a mile wide...
2 - if I fucked up, I will always own up and apologize. Ironically, I found in various relationships that many women will not accept it, will not take it seriously because it comes easy to me. No ego invested, me, but: You're supposed to cringe and grovel and make out that it's hard to admit or something. I don't know. Yepp, I stuffed that up, sorry, will try not to do that again --- move on, next. If she doesn't believe me, then it's her problem, it also denotes a lack of respect by doubting my sincerity and honesty, thanks. My wife seems to have finally learned to take me at my word, over the years; again, I don't play the game, I just give her a look and move on. No point in arguing "but I really really meant my apology". Fuck that. It's game playing; scoring points or dominance or something. No thanks. I say it when I mean it, I mean it when I say it. End of. But I never apologize over HER misbehaviour for reasons of pacifying her. See above. Sane and honest works best for me.
3 - you can't have reconciliation always. Some things can't be reconciled and you have to learn to live with a little ambiguity in your life. No other person will ever agree with you all the time. When there's a problem here (unless it's too delicate) we talk it over and either we come to an understanding, or we agree to disagree.
3a - that applies to sex. She said, once I brought it up that I didn't sign up to living like a monk, that she's simply not interested in sex any more. Hmmm, what can you say to that. She said she expects me to find someone outside the marriage for that. Hooray. Easy way to wriggle out of it isn't it? Leaves me to do all the work of finding someone else, plus, it's actually damn hard to find someone while you're not single (as a man, anyway) never mind finding someone to actually have a connection with.
I'm not interested in having sex with someone who is not enthusiastic about it (e.g. wife) nor am I interested in having sex with someone I don't like, don't respect, and don't have feelings for. I seem to be different in that respect from a lot of people on the board who say "I am afraid of outsourcing because feelings might develop". I'm the other way 'round, because without feelings nothing would happen. It's not all about the friction of mucous membranes, or getting one's rocks off - at least for me.
3b - I made it clear to my wife that, without some show of affection, there was no future to this relationship. Little gestures, little services, casual touch in passing or hugs are an absolute minimum. (and I told her I don't like feeling like I'm kissing a chicken, either). Well, that side of things works now. She's listened and bothered to learn how to do it. Seems to me that she never had a role model in her upbringing; her parents' must've been a marriage made in the walk in freezer with social distancing in force.
That's the best I can contribute, -P.
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Post by petrushka on Nov 14, 2020 1:50:48 GMT -5
TL;DR.
You built a gaddam house, you tried real hard. You almost nailed it. "You're welcome, dear."I bet he nailed one whole lot. Building inspectors have to justify their existence. I had one building inspector in the past who saw it as his job to help me. All the others I have experienced saw it as their job to find something wrong. And so they will."Oh, you have built a retaining wall that is 105cm tall. Regulation says if it's over 100 cm tall it has to have a fence at the top. I have to fail this inspection" "someone might fall down and break their neck". So we patched something up out of old boxing timber, buit a 'rail' and sent him a picture in the email and got our 'pass'. You don't "almost nail it" because the inspector has a niggle. Unless it's a major design error. |
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Post by sadkat on Nov 14, 2020 11:08:28 GMT -5
Last week my wife and I had a pretty good row (not physical, just an argument that got deeper than the normal spat). It occurred to me that not only has my marriage never included "make up sex", my wife is uninterested in any reconciliation at all. The issue was that we had our final home inspection, it's been under construction for 13 months and I'm the contractor and a lot of the labor. There were a few corrections, nitpicky stuff but my wife blew up and began to question whether I knew what I was doing, did I ask the right questions of the inspector, etc. I answered with an equally snarky reply. So, fast forward about six hours, I sent a text. "I understand you have nothing left in the tank. It was selfish of me to reply the way I did. You have every right to feel the way you feel, including being upset with me". I've developed a habit of not saying the word "sorry" because my wife doesn't ever apologize. OK, not quite true, I can remember a couple times in a 32 year relationship. Anyway. There's never a reconciliation. We just ignore what occurred and go back to the usual dealing with the details of life. It's just so un-marriage like. No sitting together, no kisses any longer (not even pecks), no sexual contact in over a year, no actual PIV sex in two years. Not good. Do you all feel that the loss of physical intimacy has also impacted that there's no common ground to come back together? How do you manage to reconcile? I clearly remember arguments with my stbx that took the same track you describe here @tooyoungtobeold2, although I didn’t get the “I understand” texts. I have the unfortunate habit of letting things build up without addressing them until some small thing sends me over the edge. His response was usually defensive in nature which escalated into awful things being said; leaving me feeling shaken, angry, and hurt. Not a good dynamic at all. His apology was usually in the form of a gift- sometimes quite large, if the argument was bad enough. All I really wanted was a hug and a kiss or some sort of affectionate overture. That never happened and, as the years went by, I learned not to expect it. Although I recognized what he was telling me by his gift giving, it didn’t make me feel better at all. Today, I’m learning that gift giving has its place and is very much appreciated when done in the right context. For me, it’s never going to be a good substitute for an apology. I’d much rather have make up sex! I’d say the most you can expect is a return to “life as usual” if there is no intimacy in your relationship. Intimacy is what gives couples the confidence to talk about the hard stuff and work to resolve their differences. That’s my opinion, anyway. |
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 15, 2020 22:31:02 GMT -5
@tooyoungtobeold2...
Dude, you built a freakin’ house! Congratulations! You have my respect, even if you don’t have hers. She seems to be missing the forest for the trees here, dwelling on the details and missing the grand accomplishment.
To your question, no, make-up sex and apologies have never been in the cards here either. W will opt to act like life is back to normal, leaving me to question... if it’s not such a big deal, why was it such a big deal?
And my reaction to the broader lack of gratitude... no more Superman; I’m just Clark Kent now. It’s broken? We’ll have to wait for a repairman.
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Post by Handy on Nov 15, 2020 23:46:32 GMT -5
Drycreek
I’m just Clark Kent now.
Same here but you said it better than I could have imagined.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 10:52:43 GMT -5
Is she good to you in any way? It's a matter of our "love languages" don't line up. She was raised in a cold emotional environment as an only child, her father was/is a traumatizing guy for those around him. She does things like pick up something at the grocery store that she knows I like but that's about it. I should never have expected any gratitude for building the house, and it's been a long process. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 11:09:57 GMT -5
Tooyoungtobeold, I am going to ask, was your W correct to assume you did something wrong or failed to ask the right questions? Did she do as much physical work on the new house as you did? Your W assuming you don't know what you are doing seems to be a fallacy she has about building a house, unless you don't know how to do some phases of construction. My W assumed I could go to the hardware store and buy a part for out 45 year old house. Sorry W, some of the plumbing fittings have changed since 1974. Some people think they are experts when it comes to building things because they watch the home remodeling programs on TV, my W included. My suggestion is don't back down if you know you did the right things or something close. Also, very few people get a 100% approval on a final home inspection. To sort of answer your questions, some things are not fixable and no common ground is a big issue to the divide in many areas of living together. To me apologizing when you are mostly right is a bad move.
Sometimes the more you give to people, the more they want and the less satisfied they become. I am an example of what I just wrote. It didn't improve anything and when I hit empty for the umpteenth time, I finally quit trying to please my W. Now I do what I see as correct if I was dealing with the general public opr a cranky customer.
If the home inspection was about your W's abilities, would you treat her like she is treating you?
I try to put myself in the inspectors position, your W position and your position and then come up with a plan to move forward. That is my advice and how I see things.
With Handy, now I need to defend my "handyman" credentials : ) I have been an "Owner's Representative" in commercial construction for over 20 years and this is the third house I have built for us. To my wife's point, this is by far the most difficult jurisdiction I have ever worked in. On one hand "code is code" but on the other hand their plan review process was long and not very thorough and inspections are quite rigorous with no "approved with corrections", they always require the correction to be made and call for reinspect. I asked about sending a photo once and they said they would make me tear out the foundation if I sent a photo. The inspector has been tough but fair. The final inspection stuff was minor but one of them, in particular, was difficult to address but I did it over the weekend. I put myself in a position that I shouldn't have because this conflict was inevitable because I did so much of it myself to keep on budget and I never should have expected any gratitude or "thanks dear--hug". That was on me. I self-performed: -The plans for submittal (I'm still proficient in AutoCAD) including Engineering. -Basement excavation -Footing and basement steel work. -Framer quit so I finished the framing with some help on weekends from a part-time carpenter -All Plumbing -All Electrical -All HVAC -All Siding -Outdoor brick patios -Paint -Flooring -Trim carpentry (doors and trim) -Bathrooms including tile work -Kitchen finishes It took me 13 months from ground breaking to final inspection. I have not taken a day or evening off in months. I go to work (I still have a full-time job) early, come home by 3, strap on my tool belt and work until 8pm most nights and work long days each weekend day. So, am I being a baby? Yeah, a little. I feel unappreciated in a huge way. No, I would never treat my wife in the way she responded to me. I need to get where you are asap, not working to please anyone but myself. |
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timedelay
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Making Up
Nov 16, 2020 11:12:26 GMT -5
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Post by timedelay on Nov 16, 2020 11:12:26 GMT -5
I asked my husband why he had seemed so angry and critical in the past. He said that it was easier to find fault with me and feel annoyed than it was to feel guilty. When he saw how much he was hurting me it got to the point where he hated himself and then resentful of me, for representing a 'failure' in his life. Over time he began skipping a lot of the in-between steps and jumped directly to being angry. I'm not saying your wife follows the same pattern, just sharing that I know it sucks to be on the receiving end of a hyper critical spouse. I wish for better for you in your new home.
Plus, you built a whole house, that's such an accomplishment, goddammit.
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Post by Handy on Nov 16, 2020 14:08:40 GMT -5
tooyoungtobeold, I have nothing but respect for you, so don't think I am being critical or that you have to prove your skill levels to me. I was on a house construction crew a very long time ago. I saw nit-picking inspectors and inspectors that showed up at the construction site and never got out of their car and approved questionable work because it was raining and the inspector didn't want to muddy their shoes.
One friend recently built his own house and purposely wired the bare ground wire to the neutral (white) pole of the outlet in the dining room. It gave the inspector something to find that needed to be corrected before the move-in permit was issued.
On another forum I read a long time ago, building a house was about the time about a third of the divorces happened or shortly there after, so the stress gets to people. That was my observation.
When I built my own house, I only did 10 to 20 of the work but the debates with my W increased. I worked on the house from 7AM to 8AM, went to my main job until 5PM then back to the house from 6PM until dark. The contractor took 3 months longer than he said it would take to build the house and that really upset my W. Me, I wanted quality work so I didn't push the extended deadline. I finally moved in with only the electrical outlet working in the kitchen. After that things progressed a bit faster. This was 1974 and there were no city final inspections. The bank did some construction loan advancement inspections to pay the contractor.
Back to your post.
So, am I being a baby? HELL NO!
Yeah, a little. Not even a little bit, so get that idea out of your mind. You are not the problem!
I feel unappreciated in a huge way. Any normal person would feel under appreciated. I say WTG for all of the work you have put into the house. That was and is a major accomplishment.
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