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Post by frednsa on Apr 13, 2020 9:48:50 GMT -5
a half-century of living within a virtually sexless marriage. acquiescence at seldom times but absolutely no passion at any time..... i believe my severe heart condition is at least partially due to the stress of living like this. endless prayers, tears, hopes - i guess i'm insane  ?? how can i stay in love with someone like her who hasn't had a sexy thought in her life 
sorry to whine but sometimes........................
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Post by baza on Apr 14, 2020 4:38:56 GMT -5
Well you reap the reward (or pay the penalty) today for the choices you made (or didn't make) yesterday.
And you'll reap the reward (or pay the penalty) tomorrow for the choices you make (or don't make) today.
That's just how it works.
You've titled your thread here "The Price Of Time".
You could just as readily have called it "The Price Of Doing Nothing".
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Post by michael on Apr 14, 2020 6:43:16 GMT -5
Most of us are scared of the unknown. What will happen if we left? And stuck because of feeling of love. I love the woman I met twenty years ago, but she hasn’t been that woman for a long time. Someone here once said, “A man marries a woman thinking she will never change, but she does. A woman marries a man thinking he will change, but he never does.” Sad quote.
And you are not whining. I literally cry sometimes and I’m a 47 year old man.
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Post by ironhamster on Apr 14, 2020 7:52:44 GMT -5
I never even did an honest analysis of my situation until I was older than you.
I was prompted to ask myself what the hell was going on at the age of forty-nine, when our pastor gave a sermon series on sex, and at one point he exclaimed "Christian married sex is the best sex ever." My wife errupted with applause. The whole congregation errupted with a standing ovation. I sat there, dismayed, looking around, feeling profoundly alone.
I've made a lot of changes to my life since. I can't say life is perfect, but I am so much happier out than in.
Whatever you choose, I hope it does your heart some good. You need not take the path I did, but you don't have to follow the path you are on, either. This is the first day of the rest of your life.
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Post by ironhamster on Apr 14, 2020 8:33:30 GMT -5
a half-century of living within a virtually sexless marriage. acquiescence at seldom times but absolutely no passion at any time..... i believe my severe heart condition is at least partially due to the stress of living like this. endless prayers, tears, hopes - i guess i'm insane  ?? how can i stay in love with someone like her who hasn't had a sexy thought in her life 
sorry to whine but sometimes........................
You stay in love because you've never understood what she feels. Would you deny the basic needs of someone you loved, even to deny them of what you had promised them to the point where their health suffered? No. You would not, because you are in love. She's not. She does not have love. She has control.
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Post by bozodeclowne on Apr 14, 2020 10:11:09 GMT -5
You stay in love because you've never understood what she feels. Would you deny the basic needs of someone you loved, even to deny them of what you had promised them to the point where their health suffered? No. You would not, because you are in love. She's not. She does not have love. She has control. I'm sorry that you are here, frednsa. Sorry that we are all here, in fact. I'm a firm believer that men and women love differently, have different expectations surrounding that love and that neither sex is well-educated about those disparities. Many probably never come to this realization, but for those that do it can be a life-altering experience. Good or bad? That depends on how you incorporate that newfound knowledge into your personal world view. If things were going great, none of us would be here, questioning. We all know narcissistic, devious and controlling people. Have we been blind and are only now seeing some of these traits in our own partners? Have they always been wearing masks to hide their true feelings? Were we just convenient or "good enough" at the time and they are now convinced they could have done so much better? Are we now forced to evaluate every action and emotion they have shown us over the years through this new lens? If our love for them has remained pretty much unchanged, how and why has theirs changed? Was it ever really there at all? This knowledge - is it the poison or the cure? I don't know the answers, and am currently stuck in this insanity myself. Do I really want to start yet another fruitless discussion that will be met with denial, eye-rolling and dismissiveness? That alone is a pretty good indication that ironhamster nailed it. Still, I want to shake her back into reality, into honesty. How can this be considered love? It is damaging, and while I never thought it to be deliberate, now I wonder.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 14, 2020 11:20:06 GMT -5
I'm a firm believer that men and women love differently, have different expectations surrounding that love and that neither sex is well-educated about those disparities. Many probably never come to this realization, but for those that do it can be a life-altering experience. Good or bad? That depends on how you incorporate that newfound knowledge into your personal world view. If things were going great, none of us would be here, questioning. Whether "men" or "women" love differently is debatable. Most of the stories of marital dysfunction on these boards tend to have very common elements distributed pretty evenly, in my observation, and so I'd suggest that at least dysfunction when it manifests seems relatively uniform. I often see this abstraction of "men" vs "women" being used as a tactic of changing the subject away from "Me" vs "my partner" - the only two people directly present and accountable in your relationship - to some form of plural "we". We all know narcissistic, devious and controlling people. Have we been blind and are only now seeing some of these traits in our own partners? Have they always been wearing masks to hide their true feelings? Were we just convenient or "good enough" at the time and they are now convinced they could have done so much better? Are we now forced to evaluate every action and emotion they have shown us over the years through this new lens? If our love for them has remained pretty much unchanged, how and why has theirs changed? Was it ever really there at all? This knowledge - is it the poison or the cure? Sometimes it can be helpful to frame things a bit differently and to look for the common ground - to see a blind spot. "Have they always been wearing masks to hide their true feelings?" - a good question - and one where there is often common ground. In a long term dysfunctional celibate marriage, are you not BOTH portraying a facade to the world and to each other to avoid the consequence of dropping the charade? I often get surprisingly strident and calamitous answers when I suggest removing a wedding ring, or sleeping in separate beds, for example. Something bad will happen, which must be avoided. It means the "show" of a marriage will be dropped, which risks a consequence. Do I really want to start yet another fruitless discussion that will be met with denial, eye-rolling and dismissiveness? That alone is a pretty good indication that ironhamster nailed it. Still, I want to shake her back into reality, into honesty. How can this be considered love? It is damaging, and while I never thought it to be deliberate, now I wonder. Like most of us on here, I drowned myself in marital self-help books. Of the lot of them, a few took an evidence based approach and were more successful. In particular, John Gottman's lab work in this area found that the biggest predictor of divorce (upwards of 90%) was found in eye-rolling, indicative of "contempt". Once it has gone that far, it's nearly impossible to retrieve and almost always ends in divorce in the longitudinal studies. bozodeclowne , so much of our posts in this forum begin with a stance of "waking a partner up to a reality". People have sex drives, irrespective of their partner. It's pretty easy to have sex in a marriage. People who want to have sex will have it even under the worst circumstances, or with people they shouldn't, and in scenarios where they risk disgrace and financial ruin. Most of us start in a place where they view their partner's sexual aversion to them as being some kind of lapse in awareness that can be corrected - like chewing with your mouth open. This isn't just a lack of awareness or indifference though - it's deliberate avoidance, overriding their own sense of sexuality to avoid having it with someone they don't want. So, yes, it is deliberate - but that doesn't mean she's trying to control you. It likely means she doesn't see you as a suitable sexual partner. If eye-rolling is happening, that likely means "contempt" as well. That means there's a long way to go just to claw your way back up to zero. Zero being "no-attraction" - about equivalent to walking past a stranger on the street. So, the focus on shaking her back to reality and honesty - I'm not so sure that's really possible. What extra information do you need from her other than what is and isn't happening, that would make a difference for you? Is the reality not already apparent? Why do you need her verbal confirmation of what you can see is already happening or not happening?
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Post by bozodeclowne on Apr 14, 2020 12:52:32 GMT -5
Food for thought, Apocrypha, and I thank you. In my situation, I believe the reality is apparent to me, but I am having a hard time accepting it. Look, I know the picture painted on a forum like this is one side of the story. When I tell you that the two exceptions to my wife's (relatively) recent cessation of any expression of affection were when our respective families were present (a wedding and Christmas dinner), you would likely conclude she was putting on a show, keeping up appearances. That is the logical, obvious conclusion but it doesn't jive with the person I've known for 30 years. Or does it? Is it possible whatever her reasons, she doesn't see where this ends up? A highly-educated, intelligent woman? At another family gathering she was relating how we no longer sleep together due to my snoring. That prompted visible shock on the faces of several of her female family members, and some pushback as well. I picked up on that, while she seemingly did not.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 14, 2020 23:29:59 GMT -5
Food for thought, Apocrypha , and I thank you. In my situation, I believe the reality is apparent to me, but I am having a hard time accepting it. Look, I know the picture painted on a forum like this is one side of the story. When I tell you that the two exceptions to my wife's (relatively) recent cessation of any expression of affection were when our respective families were present (a wedding and Christmas dinner), you would likely conclude she was putting on a show, keeping up appearances. That is the logical, obvious conclusion but it doesn't jive with the person I've known for 30 years. Or does it? Is it possible whatever her reasons, she doesn't see where this ends up? A highly-educated, intelligent woman? At another family gathering she was relating how we no longer sleep together due to my snoring. That prompted visible shock on the faces of several of her female family members, and some pushback as well. I picked up on that, while she seemingly did not. A wedding and a Christmas dinner, are an opportunity for a show, and they are also present a situation in which "householdery" is present. That is - a sense of family togetherness and belonging. Amicable ex-spouses sometimes have this. In thousands of these stories, I have never seen one amount to change in approach until a very real consequence was attached and FELT, rather than being warned about. A threat and a fight every month and constant gaslighting takes less effort to deal with than say - catching or getting caught in an affair, or one's partner beginning (not warning of) a separation, or of one's partner offering a choice between an open relationship or separation. If it's a choice between boffing someone she doesn't want and having a periodic argument about it every month or two, the latter sucks the least. In her mind, she's likely in the same place as you. She's obviously not into it with you (if she was, she'd have sex with you), and so her strategy is avoidance and distraction. The more you focus on it, the more it thwarts HER ambition to ALSO survive the sexless marriage. Remember - SHE'S ALSO CELIBATE TOO. In her mind, she's the hero for just showing up in the marriage and trying to maintain the chaffe cloud that allows you both to maintain the facade. You, on the other hand, are like the smartass kid who keeps pointing out the card up the sleeve. Her goal isn't to fix the marriage, it's to survive being married to someone who she doesn't fancy in that way. YOU are the one who is likely to spell doom for the marriage in relentlessly pointing out the lack of sexual expression and affection, which itself would be the result of some deeper disconnection upstream. You both are stuck in the same predicament, surviving a celibate marriage. "Working on it" - I presume you are both celibate while said work is happening, and the clock keeps ticking? What if you were separated and living on your own, and possibly free to date? If she felt the marriage was important, and the clock ticking while you were now single - do you think it might change the scale of her approach to "working on it?"
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Post by saarinista on Apr 19, 2020 21:42:00 GMT -5
I'm a woman married to a guy who doesn't want to have sex with me. (And no, I'm not a disgusting pig if anyone is wondering.) There are plenty of other women on this forum too in the same position. Just saying. It's not a gender issue. It's a relationship issue.
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Post by saarinista on Apr 19, 2020 21:48:00 GMT -5
... Is it possible whatever her reasons, she doesn't see where this ends up? A highly-educated, intelligent woman? At another family gathering she was relating how we no longer sleep together due to my snoring. That prompted visible shock on the faces of several of her female family members, and some pushback as well. I picked up on that, while she seemingly did not. Sure, it's possible she doesn't think you care about sex, but she probably knows you do. More likely, she's just hoping you'll put up with her aversion to it. You have so far. She's hoping that will continue, I reckon.
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Post by worksforme2 on Apr 20, 2020 8:06:09 GMT -5
Is it possible whatever her reasons, she doesn't see where this ends up? A highly-educated, intelligent woman? At another family gathering she was relating how we no longer sleep together due to my snoring. That prompted visible shock on the faces of several of her female family members, and some pushback as well. I picked up on that, while she seemingly did not. It is absolutely possible she doesn't see where it will end up. I had numerous "talks" with my X in which I expressed how unhappy I was with the lack of intimacy. I expressly stated on more than 1 of these talks that I could not and would not continue to live in a sexless marriage. My X is a highly intelligent woman. She was an executive assistant for a vice president in a major corporation and she had major responsibilities in insuring millions of dollars in vendor invoices were routed to the right project managers to be paid by the right departments and charged appropriately. And despite being highly intelligent and having been told what was coming down the pike if things didn't change, she still continued with the behavior that eventually ended our marriage. She even stated afterwards she never though we would end up divorcing. Often people see and hear what they want to or what best fits their view of things, not what happens to be actually taking place around them.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 20, 2020 9:56:26 GMT -5
Bozodrclowne said: “ ... Is it possible whatever her reasons, she doesn't see where this ends up? A highly-educated, intelligent woman? At another family gathering she was relating how we no longer sleep together due to my snoring. That prompted visible shock on the faces of several of her female family members, and some pushback as well. I picked up on that, while she seemingly did not.”
It’s possible that you are the one who isn’t seeing where this ends up. You have endured sexlessness for years. The best way to predict future behavior is one’s past behavior. You are likely to stay in the marriage and the marriage is likely to continue being sexless.
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Post by bozodeclowne on Apr 21, 2020 14:50:36 GMT -5
It’s possible that you are the one who isn’t seeing where this ends up. You have endured sexlessness for years. The best way to predict future behavior is one’s past behavior. You are likely to stay in the marriage and the marriage is likely to continue being sexless. Oh, I see it, and kick myself for not realistically assessing the relationship 10 or 15 years ago. That has been a theme for me in a lot of areas. I'd like to think I've finally had enough and will start making changes, but of course until I actually start doing the work it's all talk. Ha! I could easily say the same thing about my wife. Two sides of the same coin, indeed. How are you doing these days, frednsa? Sorry for hijacking your thread, though hopefully some of this stuff is helpful to you.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 22, 2020 19:10:26 GMT -5
Boxodeclowne said; “ Do I really want to start yet another fruitless discussion that will be met with denial, eye-rolling and dismissiveness? That alone is a pretty good indication that ironhamster nailed it. Still, I want to shake her back into reality, into honesty. How can this be considered love? It is damaging, and while I never thought it to be deliberate, now I wonder.”
Eye rolling is a sign of contempt and marital expert Dr. John Gottman says that when contempt enters a marriage, divorce is likely within 5 years. When I read that, I was the eye roller and had no plans to divorce. Within 3 years, I had divorced - at my instigation. My advice is to seek a lawyer’s advice to find out how a divorce would shake out for you. The decision to divorce isn’t only up to you. Your marriage is in big trouble.
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