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Post by csl on Apr 25, 2019 22:02:27 GMT -5
Once my refuser was calling me a degrading name. I told her that I didn't like it when she called me that, and I asked her not to do it again. She told me that she could call me whatever she wanted. I told her that if she wanted me to leave, to call me that one more time. So she did, and I left. She later told me that I violated her boundary by leaving. So she was a master at manipulating the boundary concept. One thing I've learned: boundaries don't mean crap! Actually, they do, but only if you reinforce them. I believe that the term Baza uses is “cred”. If you don’t live by your boundaries, then you are right, they are crap. But that’s on you.
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Post by csl on Apr 25, 2019 22:08:14 GMT -5
When someone starts telling me they have boundaries....I am leaving skid marks in the parking lot. Sometimes I think we make this more complicated than it has to be...golden rule...treat others the way you would want to be treated...keep it simple. Several years ago, I created The Golden Rule Corollary, which says that since the Golden Rule is so ubiquitous in our society, when someone behaves badly to you, they are merely demonstrating how they want you to treat them. (I will admit that the Corollary isn’t wildly popular, but I think that it has practical application.) Or to put it another way, when someone shows you what they are like, believe them the first time,
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Post by Handy on Apr 25, 2019 22:55:10 GMT -5
Firefollower .golden rule...treat others the way you would want to be treated...keep it simple.
That sounds good but if one party likes spankings and the other party thinks that is abuse, the golden rule sort of doesn't work.
If I was a person that used to get drunk and now I don't consume more than one 12 oz beer a week and a new potential GF liked to get drunk every weekend, my boundary would be no more drunks in my life. My GF could say she wanted to continue to get drunk and that is OK with me but she would no longer be my GF.
A boundary isn't much different than saying what you need from the other person. It does not force the other person to do anything.
Another boundary is you go to work and if the employer pays you a 20% less, it is your choice to accept a lower wage or find another job. If you don't get paid at all, you usually enforce your boundary a lot sooner and don't go to work for that employer or customer.
Boundaries are like things on a list you HAVE to have or it isn't worth being in that relationship as a long term exclusive partner. They might remain a friend but not your one and only.
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Post by ironhamster on Apr 26, 2019 0:40:28 GMT -5
One of the problems with any message is the interpretation of it by the recipient.
The book reads, if you are late for dinner, your plate will be in the refrigerator and the rest of the family will have eaten. Your lateness is not going to stop us from having dinner on time.
My wife's interpretation was, roughly, if he is late getting home from work I should leave, take the baby, stay out of communication, and not come back until he is in bed for work the next morning, because my dinner is more important than him earning a living to support my goldbrick ass. ...Sorry. i could not help ad libbing, there.
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Post by lessingham on Apr 26, 2019 2:49:19 GMT -5
Bill and Ted had it right, be most excellent to each other.
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firefollower
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Post by firefollower on Apr 26, 2019 7:30:51 GMT -5
I think I am hung-up on the word "boundary"...as it communicates rules of engagement with no room for compromise. If you tell me you are not into spanking, cool...no worries, I don't go there. But when you figuratively build a fence around you with rules of engagement...it kind of takes the romance out of it for me. For me, it makes the relationship a rule book. I would like to think that conversation about likes and dislikes is more appropriate.
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Post by h on Apr 26, 2019 9:10:33 GMT -5
I think I am hung-up on the word "boundary"...as it communicates rules of engagement with no room for compromise. If you tell me you are not into spanking, cool...no worries, I don't go there. But when you figuratively build a fence around you with rules of engagement...it kind of takes the romance out of it for me. For me, it makes the relationship a rule book. I would like to think that conversation about likes and dislikes is more appropriate. Boundaries are a good thing. It's not about setting "rules of engagement" but more about stating up front the things you will not tolerate. Would you stay with a woman who regularly blew all her money on junk and expected you to pay her bills? If not, that's a boundary. Would you allow a woman to talk down to you and belittle your opinion all the time? If not, that's a boundary.
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firefollower
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Post by firefollower on Apr 26, 2019 9:58:01 GMT -5
I see your point...but, I have always felt a good relationship should be more organic than transactional. With boundaries come consequence when they are violated...if you cannot deliver the consequence then the boundary is useless...leaves no room for discussion.
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Post by flashjohn on Apr 26, 2019 9:58:47 GMT -5
How in the hell is that violating HER boundary? I am just shaking my head flashjohn . She sounded like a real piece of work. Yes, she is. She actually sees everything through the lens of herself. What is hard is that when you live like that for decades, you start to think that it is normal, and you are the one with the problem. It took me about a year of being away from her to realize that there is nothing wrong with me at all, but I had lived in a totally distorted home, and my perspective was skewed.
Frankly, I can get really upset if I think about it too much. I was raised to believe that any problems were the fault of the husband, so I assumed that I was doing something wrong.
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Post by flashjohn on Apr 26, 2019 10:00:28 GMT -5
Once my refuser was calling me a degrading name. I told her that I didn't like it when she called me that, and I asked her not to do it again. She told me that she could call me whatever she wanted. I told her that if she wanted me to leave, to call me that one more time. So she did, and I left. She later told me that I violated her boundary by leaving. So she was a master at manipulating the boundary concept. One thing I've learned: boundaries don't mean crap! Not to a narcissist, borderline, or other personality disorder. They honestly believe you are attacking them for not accepting their abuse.
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Post by flashjohn on Apr 26, 2019 10:02:52 GMT -5
Flashjohn She told me that she could call me whatever she wanted. I told her that if she wanted me to leave, to call me that one more time. So she did, and I left. She later told me that I violated her boundary by leaving.Flashjohn, it was your boundary your XW violated, not the other way around. Boundaries are things you will or won't tolerate, not what the other person had to do or not do.
Exactly! She just could not believe that I would not accept her abuse. Frankly, this was the way things were the entire time of our joke of a marriage. If I didn't do exactly what she wanted, she told me I was controlling. I am amazed that I allowed myself to be treated that way for so long.
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Post by flashjohn on Apr 26, 2019 10:46:04 GMT -5
One of the problems with any message is the interpretation of it by the recipient. The book reads, if you are late for dinner, your plate will be in the refrigerator and the rest of the family will have eaten. Your lateness is not going to stop us from having dinner on time. My wife's interpretation was, roughly, if he is late getting home from work I should leave, take the baby, stay out of communication, and not come back until he is in bed for work the next morning, because my dinner is more important than him earning a living to support my goldbrick ass. ...Sorry. i could not help ad libbing, there. Yep, that is a total distortion of the concept. That is going way beyond a boundary to excessive punishment. I had to be careful not to tell my ExRefuser what I wanted because she would go out of her way to do the exact opposite.
A boundary is just saying, "I will not accept this kind of treatment, and I will allow the natural and/or logical consequences to follow." In my case, I said, "If you continue to call me this, I will remove myself from the situation. You can say whatever you want, but I will not be here to listen to it." My ExRefuser honestly believed that she was entitled to say and do whatever she wanted, and I was obligated to put up with whatever she did or said.
This is actually what a Sexual Refuser does in marriage. He/she is saying, "I am going to end your sex life, and I don't care how you feel about it, think about it, or how it affects you. You don't have a say in the matter, and since we are married you are OBLIGATED to be celibate forever. If you even think about sex, talk about sex, or look at naked pictures/videos, I am going to tell everyone we know what a horrible person you are."
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Post by solodriver on Apr 26, 2019 20:22:48 GMT -5
flashjohn: "This is actually what a Sexual Refuser does in marriage. He/she is saying, "I am going to end your sex life, and I don't care how you feel about it, think about it, or how it affects you. You don't have a say in the matter, and since we are married you are OBLIGATED to be celibate forever. If you even think about sex, talk about sex, or look at naked pictures/videos, I am going to tell everyone we know what a horrible person you are."
That is EXACTLY my refuser wife and the way she thinks. And when I do separate, she will smear my name and reputation all over the place in retaliation. I have a hell of a storm brewing and the dark clouds are now starting to be seen on the horizon in my situation.
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Post by baza on Apr 26, 2019 20:51:18 GMT -5
In going through (or in the aftermath of) a divorce, your spouse is going to do one of two things.
They are going to tell the truth about what happened - or - They are going to lie about what happened.
And you've got no control over which route they take.
If you are reluctant to get out of your ILIASM shithole because your spouse may speak ill of you, and some people may think ill of you as a result, then you have really run up the white flag already.
Have you conducted yourself with respect and fairness in the marriage and the dismantling of it ? Then what's to fear ? Your record will speak for itself - as will your spouse's.
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Post by flashjohn on Apr 29, 2019 9:28:06 GMT -5
In going through (or in the aftermath of) a divorce, your spouse is going to do one of two things. They are going to tell the truth about what happened - or - They are going to lie about what happened. And you've got no control over which route they take. If you are reluctant to get out of your ILIASM shithole because your spouse may speak ill of you, and some people may think ill of you as a result, then you have really run up the white flag already. Have you conducted yourself with respect and fairness in the marriage and the dismantling of it ? Then what's to fear ? Your record will speak for itself - as will your spouse's. Very true. People who really care about me don't believe the crap she spouts, and people who do believe her crap were never my friends anyway. What is really sad is that a woman I have known for 40 years has taken her side. She even came with my ExRefuser to my mom's funeral. It really pissed me off that my ExRefuser would be willing to show her face at my mom's funeral.
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