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Post by workingonit on Jul 19, 2018 7:40:46 GMT -5
“She wants us to get clear on what we want out of this process which I think is very different from each other and I mentioned that. ” If what you want is support and help for you as a couple to move toward divorcing next year in a way that is as easy as possible for your children including your fragile younger son, you need to state that clearly in therapy. You also need to see a lawyer and find out legally what would needs to be done to accomplish this including while protecting your interests. You also need to say clearly incouples counselor thar the ship has sailed when it comes to your participating in efforts to rekindle (kindle?) sex in your marriage. You view your h and you as fundamentally sexually incompatible and you have no interest in sex with him. If he chooses to work on becoming more sexual, that would be something for him to work on in individual therapy for the sake of any future relationships. You will not work on it with him as his sexuality is no longer your concern. I also suggest that you begin sleeping separately from your husband. That will help make it clear to both of you that that part of the marriage is over. Right now you are treating the marriage like you treated the leak in your husband’s bathroom: you are aware of it and are watching your husband cope without fixing it. But you are not having a plumber address the problem. The therapist is your plumber. You are wasting your time if for the sake of sparing your h’s feelings you don’t speak your truth. The point of the counseling can’t be forcing your husband to happily agree the marriage is unfixable. He may always prefer a deeply flawed marriage to divorce. The broken marriage may still fulfill his needs. If You no longer wish to be married to him, you need to say so. Your truth is “My husband has told me he never was interested in vaginal sex. If I had known that before marriage, I never would have married him. After XX years of no sex, I realize we are sexually incompatible. This is not something that will change because I do not want to be married to a man who would ignore my sexual needs for xx years. That forced celibacy has caused irreparable harm to our marriage. I plan to divorce him next year. I am in this counseling to help us divorce in a way that is most supportive to our children including our son who has xxxx problems.” Talk to a lawyer before you do this. For all you know, it may be possible to file now but delay the divorce til next year. I was able to do that, thus allowing me to remain on my h’s health insurance until he retired. This. I am going to read this every day! This is exactly what I need to hear. We have our next session in 3 weeks. My goal is to say this exactly. I will also try to consult with a lawyer. Thank you for your hard and accurate truths
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 19, 2018 10:00:51 GMT -5
We went to a new therapist last night. [...] She exclaimed that we were much further along in the therapeutic process than most couples she sees. A word of caution to be critical of your therapist’s area of expertise. Having been burned by a therapist who did this, her praise raises a flag for me that you’re venturing into a depth where your therapist has little experience. As for your husband, he needs to realize that there is a point of no return. What might have been adequate maintenance is woefully inadequate to salvage the situation. “You can’t water a dead plant back to life.” At this point, his focus would best be on how to not kill his next relationship.
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nicky
Junior Member
Posts: 36
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Post by nicky on Jul 19, 2018 10:41:13 GMT -5
Your truth is “My husband has told me he never was interested in vaginal sex. If I had known that before marriage, I never would have married him. After XX years of no sex, I realize we are sexually incompatible. This is not something that will change because I do not want to be married to a man who would ignore my sexual needs for xx years. That forced celibacy has caused irreparable harm to our marriage. I plan to divorce him next year. I am in this counseling to help us divorce in a way that is most supportive to our children including our son who has xxxx problems.” Thank you. Can i point out as a fact that u’re better than most marriage therapists out there?
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Post by workingonit on Jul 19, 2018 11:01:39 GMT -5
This 2 weeks absence the rabbi is on is timely Sister workingonit . Temporary zip-code therapy is very valuable, gives you a chance to re-assess, review and re-group. As an observation (not a criticism) the rabbi is way more intelligent than you (or me, or anyone else in this group I'd suggest) and in any intellectual exchange he is going to steam-roll you. But you're smart Sister workingonit . And in real life, 'smart' trumps 'intellect' any day of the week. So you need to be playing the smart game, your game, the game you are good at. Not his game, of esoteric debate and language. Keep observing his actions, and base your choices on those actions. He is indeed engaging in esoteric debate and language interpretation. This is his go to place. You are right I cannot win these debates. He does steam roll me every time. Thank you for the vote of confidence. I do need to start thinking very carefully and precisely at this juncture. And act smart, certainly. And I am not offended in the least! I have always known he is far more intelligent than I am. Far more than anyone I have ever met! baza your spot on analysis continues to shock and amaze! We are all lucky to have you!
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Post by h on Jul 19, 2018 11:07:25 GMT -5
“She wants us to get clear on what we want out of this process which I think is very different from each other and I mentioned that. ” If what you want is support and help for you as a couple to move toward divorcing next year in a way that is as easy as possible for your children including your fragile younger son, you need to state that clearly in therapy. You also need to see a lawyer and find out legally what would needs to be done to accomplish this including while protecting your interests. You also need to say clearly incouples counselor thar the ship has sailed when it comes to your participating in efforts to rekindle (kindle?) sex in your marriage. You view your h and you as fundamentally sexually incompatible and you have no interest in sex with him. If he chooses to work on becoming more sexual, that would be something for him to work on in individual therapy for the sake of any future relationships. You will not work on it with him as his sexuality is no longer your concern. I also suggest that you begin sleeping separately from your husband. That will help make it clear to both of you that that part of the marriage is over. Right now you are treating the marriage like you treated the leak in your husband’s bathroom: you are aware of it and are watching your husband cope without fixing it. But you are not having a plumber address the problem. The therapist is your plumber. You are wasting your time if for the sake of sparing your h’s feelings you don’t speak your truth. The point of the counseling can’t be forcing your husband to happily agree the marriage is unfixable. He may always prefer a deeply flawed marriage to divorce. The broken marriage may still fulfill his needs. If You no longer wish to be married to him, you need to say so. Your truth is “My husband has told me he never was interested in vaginal sex. If I had known that before marriage, I never would have married him. After XX years of no sex, I realize we are sexually incompatible. This is not something that will change because I do not want to be married to a man who would ignore my sexual needs for xx years. That forced celibacy has caused irreparable harm to our marriage. I plan to divorce him next year. I am in this counseling to help us divorce in a way that is most supportive to our children including our son who has xxxx problems.” Talk to a lawyer before you do this. For all you know, it may be possible to file now but delay the divorce til next year. I was able to do that, thus allowing me to remain on my h’s health insurance until he retired. This. I am going to read this every day! This is exactly what I need to hear. We have our next session in 3 weeks. My goal is to say this exactly. I will also try to consult with a lawyer. Thank you for your hard and accurate truths Type up what you want to say, print it out and read it at therapy. This way you won't leave anything unsaid and he won't have the opportunity to steamroll you or gaslight the therapist.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 19, 2018 11:33:22 GMT -5
"And I am not offended in the least! I have always known he is far more intelligent than I am. Far more than anyone I have ever met!"
But he lacks social intelligence, which is far more important.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 19, 2018 12:47:22 GMT -5
This may help, or it may not. He is good with words, so take his words away. I am not sure what sort of logic he uses, what his arguments are, but, my stbx was educated as a counselor, and I believe the big payoff of her psychological knowledge was being able to manipulate me. In our last few heated debates she would lay out her argument, and I would interrupt her by pointing out the reality of what had happened.
Example: Refuser: "I have not been in the mood because..." Me: "Just stop right there. Without regard to the reason the fact is for twenty-five years you never once wanted to fuck me."
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Post by csl on Jul 19, 2018 14:06:34 GMT -5
The take of the rabbi's words reminded me of this clip:
Play Eliza's song and demand the same from him: Show me!
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Post by beachguy on Jul 19, 2018 18:46:48 GMT -5
@workingonitnow, you do not have to be smarter than him. You do not need to be a better debater. This is not the Harvard Debating Team finals.
All you need is the courage of your convictions. You are making a decision and sticking with it. You do not need his validation or permission to end the marriage. All you need is to file. You do not need to justify it beyond 9 years of total celibacy.
When you have the courage of your convictions you will stop the useless debating and Just.Do.It. You will tell the therapist it is all over- all the efforts to fix things are over. You will tell the therapist that the only help you need or want is to navigate the divorce as best possible for the sake of the children. If your therapist demands that you validate your decision to leave, beyond 9 years of celibacy, fire her and find a new one.
I wish you luck building the courage of conviction that will get you out of this, and out of the surreal fantasy world of your H. He is truly a nutcase.
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 20, 2018 9:24:01 GMT -5
You did a good job sticking up for yourself and your own needs. The bottom line and I know you know it - he is not capable of sexually and emotionally satisfying you. Yes he made mistakes of neglect - his bad. Yes you made mistakes of tolerating the neglect - your bad. But the bottom line is,(and I’m sort of projecting my own SM here), you want sex but not with him, so it’s too little too late. People either enjoy sex or they don’t. People also do things well that they enjoy, he will never be the lover you need. We only have so many years on this Earth don’t spend too much time figuring out what you want, life is about going after what you want and enjoying life. Enjoy these next two weeks. Treat yourself to a massage or pedicure, go shopping, go to a movie, connect with a friend, eat something yummy, and focus on You!
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 21, 2018 6:00:38 GMT -5
The therapist’s accolades regarding how far along and aware you both are when sitting on her couch don’t mean jack shit. We got these same comments from our therapist; how well we were able to communicate, how open we were to hearing the other and being respectful, how much “further along” we were than most couples she sees. We’re still getting divorced. She was not able to help us in any way because we simply are not compatible. You know this about your relationship. You know your H will never be able to be what you want and need. Gather your courage, speak your truth, and work towards the best exit you can so you can be on your way to living a happy life.
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nicky
Junior Member
Posts: 36
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Post by nicky on Jul 22, 2018 11:26:48 GMT -5
I’ve just re-read ur posts, workinoit. Somehow,, underneath the anger i feel a lot of sadness. I hope i’m not projecting my own feelings onto you, but i feel u’re going out of the way to try to make ur marriage work, and u’ve accepted much more than u thought u were capaple of accepting. Like sexlessness and taking blame. I feel ur h is a very important person to u, and u love him dearly, even with his faults. And u’re staying ready to forgive him, still hopefully waiting for the right reason to forgive.
I’m not going to tell u to just leave him. I just think it’s ok to be sad, and it’s ok to cry sometimes, and be sadder still if you think there’ll come a time when u’ll have to let go. And i think letting go may not necessarily mean divorce, but letting go of the mental picture of a happy marriage with ur h, which you’ve longed for for so long, which you’ve worked so hard and persisted so long in hope of gettting, against all hardship.
And some things just leave us... like ppl we love, sometimes they just die. Maybe the h you once knew died, and became someone else. Maybe he was nvr the person u thought he was. Maybe u weren’t the person u thought u were. When ppl say mid-life crisis, i always think “bull-shit”. i think ppl dun change mid-life, they just uncover their true self.
btw reddit just banned my old acc (for swaering i think). My new acc there is zonicxxx
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Post by workingonit on Aug 3, 2018 7:26:59 GMT -5
Hi all! Checking back in on this thread with an update.
So my zipcode therapy ends today and I have been reflecting on what I have gotten from it. Two main and very opposing pieces of clarity have come to me:
1. I am ready to move forward with separation. My h keeps insisting he is changing and that he is "so sorry" for years of neglect. But there has been irreparable damage done to an already (always) weak part of our relationship (intimacy). If you run over someone's foot and break all their bones you may be very sorry, they may forgive you totally, but that foot is still broken. No, I have not consulted a lawyer yet. I know I need to.
HOWEVER...
2. My time alone with my youngest has lead me to see how precarious his mental health is at this moment. Now, this has always been an issue and some times are more intense than others. This is just another acute moment. He is also about to restart school after a 2.5 year hiatus due to a complete breakdown. This is a delicate moment that has been made more delicate and problematic by his recent infatuation with marijuana. I have been meeting with support, getting resources in place, spending endless hours with him, etc. Ot has been a seriously busy 2 weeks of parenting. He needs to be my priority now. Also, having another adult in the house is critical for this moment- I just cannot be in so many places at once.
So, nothing practical (like moving out) is going to change in my marriage because that must go on the back burner for now for my son.
I feel like I need to be authentic and tell my h I want to separate. I am considering asking him to move to the guest room and continue living together as roommates and coparents until we can revisit when things are less delicate. I cannot picture my h becoming angry and resentful and shoring up for a battle in this scenario but having read enough on this board I am still concerned that can happen. You all make me think a dark demon can emerge when the d word is mentioned.
Your thoughts? What pitfalls may I be missing? Is it stupid to bring up separating right now? I do have a plan in my head for what divorce could look like financially but it relies on it being peaceful, which I am not in control of!
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 3, 2018 7:47:21 GMT -5
“I am considering asking him to move to the guest room and continue living together as roommates and coparents until we can revisit when things are less delicate. I cannot picture my h becoming angry and resentful and shoring up for a battle in this scenario but having read enough on this board I am still concerned that can happen. You all make me think a dark demon can emerge when the d word is mentioned.”
You want to make it clear that the romantic part of the marriage is over. Thus, you need to move to the guest room.
Your plans to ask him to move there indicate you still are pinning your view of the marriage in his approval. He doesn’t have to agree there is no hope for sex/romance in the marriage for you to believe that.
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Post by workingonit on Aug 3, 2018 7:57:06 GMT -5
northstarmom I agree with your insight and I have been trying to own the fact that I want him to agree. I recognize in our conversations over the last few months I am doing just that- trying to convince him. I also know that an important step in my personal growth is to simply state my truth and my decision clearly even if he disagrees. The room thing is really practical though. The guest room is really small and I have lots more stuff and a much bigger bed than he has. (There is no bed in the guest room currently). My bed will not fit. Also he has an enormous study that is literally greater than half the size of the entire house. It is all his. It seems wrong to also give him the master bedroom.
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