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Post by bballgirl on Dec 4, 2017 11:05:16 GMT -5
Oops. Sorry for bringing up a politicized topic, but this being the "off topic" forum, I felt maybe it was okay and I just really enjoy discussions with this group of people. I guess it's not so much "political" to me as it is just something we see playing out before our eyes in the world. I gained some fresh insight and thoughts from all of you, thanks for sharing. I read an interesting article about how the older generation is seeing all these accusations differently from the younger one. NO surprise, there, I know, but it was interesting. I can't find it again, though. It's all good! I enjoyed the thread.
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Post by h on Dec 4, 2017 11:37:31 GMT -5
Oops. Sorry for bringing up a politicized topic, but this being the "off topic" forum, I felt maybe it was okay and I just really enjoy discussions with this group of people. I guess it's not so much "political" to me as it is just something we see playing out before our eyes in the world. I gained some fresh insight and thoughts from all of you, thanks for sharing. I read an interesting article about how the older generation is seeing all these accusations differently from the younger one. NO surprise, there, I know, but it was interesting. I can't find it again, though. I enjoyed the conversation. I don't think it had a political topic, just that many of the people accused happened to be public figures. I thought people did an awesome job of keeping the discussion on topic without involving the political views of those involved.
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Post by Caris on Dec 5, 2017 23:36:16 GMT -5
'”I’m not blaming the victim, but being invited by yourself to a hotel room/ apartment/house has certain presumptions. Unless the person accepting the invitation makes is clear thier intentions, there is a presumption by the person extending the invitation. Weather that is right or wrong, that is something different, but this is the societal norm.” It would be different if these predators were clear about their intentions. However, they don’t say, “come to my hotel room so I can rape you.” They don’t even say an obvious come on like, “it’s getting late. Let’s have a drink in my room.” They also aren’t in a romantic situation in which if one invites a companion to one’s home or hotel room, anyone who’s not an unsophisticated teen would expect a sexual pass. Example: when after having several dates with him and turning down a pass and following up a pass by requesting that he get std testing, the guy invited me for dinner at his place, I was not offended when he answered the door wearing a towel. I knew we had made a sex date. if I had come over to rehearse a play we were in or to help me with his resume or to drop by mail that had accidentally been delivered to my house, I’d consider his actions to be insulting and unacceptable. I’ve met alone with men friends to rehearse or work on projects. I’ve even let some close male friends spend the night in a guest room. None made a pass or acted like sex was what they expected. While I think it’s unwise for people to venture into the hotel rooms of people of the opposite sex (or in some cases the same sex), I think that many do this not because they are fools but because of the way the other person has presented the invitation as being strictly business, and has acted previously in a way appropriate for a professional relationship. I think a big problem is that some men think it’s normal to think of sexually assaulting any woman they are alone with. They don’t realize that such thoughts are abnormal. That’s why I believe that VP Mike Pence thinks it makes sense for him to never be alone with any woman except his wife. Apparently, he thinks it’s normal to not be able to control himself if he’s alone with a woman. Sex— forced sex - must be all that he thinks of when around women. Oh come on...now you are blaming Mike Pence for being a good Christian gentleman? He’s damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t. It’s not that he believes he can’t control himself. It’s not to be tempted because that’s a natural thing between men and women...to be tempted. To say that forced sex is all he must think of when he’s around women is really low ball. However, even if that were the case, do we now blame a man for doing the right thing?
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Post by WindSister on Dec 6, 2017 7:44:49 GMT -5
Oh come on...now you are blaming Mike Pence for being a good Christian gentleman? He’s damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t. It’s not that he believes he can’t control himself. It’s not to be tempted because that’s a natural thing between men and women...to be tempted. To say that forced sex is all he must think of when he’s around women is really low ball. However, even if that were the case, do we now blame a man for doing the right thing? I agree. My husband doesn't go to bars with women coworkers after work not because he can't control himself, but because he cares about the message that sends. He only attends co-ed functions. That's not from pressure from me. That's just who he is, how he's made up. A one woman man and he doesn't even give others a tiny little opportunity to doubt that about him. It's incredibly old fashioned, but, man, after all I witnessed, saw, and did? Such a turn on for me.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 6, 2017 8:15:12 GMT -5
There’s a helluva big difference between a married man’s going to bars with women and a married man’s being in a regular room alone with a woman or having a business lunch with a woman. I can understand that some people would not be capable of having a drink alone due to the disinhibition alcohol causes especially if people are attracted to each other.
If a man refuses to do such things because he thinks they will lead to sex then he must be only focused on women as sexual objects. Unfortunately, the people who lose out due to his behavior and preoccupation are women who likely lose out on mentoring and career advancement because men are more likely to be in business positions of influence.
Some of my best mentors were men. We had business lunches and private meetings in our offices. No sex or sexual innuendo was involved.
I’ve mentored men including attractive ones and have had business lunches and dinners with them. I have not been tempted to do anything but business with them.
I am in a 4 year post sm romantic relationship. I have male friends who are like brothers. Sometimes I go out to dinner with them or have a drink with them. No sex or sexual innuendo is involved. My partner knows this and is fine with this. I do have male friends whom I find sexually attractive or who seem attracted to me. To avoid either of us being tempted, I do not hang out alone with them.
Religion has nothing to do with this. My personal sense of ethics does.
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Post by WindSister on Dec 6, 2017 8:57:46 GMT -5
I agree it's not about religion, but ethics and what a person is comfortable with or believes in. Yes, the after work drink scene is nothing but trouble and I am glad my husband has one or two and then leaves. Inevitably, every time, the stories the next day involve someone babysitting another until the wee hours of the night - all married, too. My husband babysitting some drunk chick at midnight would not sit well with me, that's for sure. I just won't stay in a relationship like that. I don't get some of the things I see with some of his coworkers - too much drama. A lot of the men could filed a complaint with HR against one of the women there, actually.
The Pence thing got polarized - so I won't dive into that any further. (as per board guidelines).
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 6, 2017 11:17:50 GMT -5
There are so many analogies to be drawn here.
Just because someone chooses not to participate in activities doesn't mean they fear succumbing to the evil potential therein. Some people simply choose to avoid even the perception of impropriety. That's hardly an attribute to be twisted into something bad, especially when it's a personal choice and not a behavior that's being imposed on others.
There are modern cultures within the US where it's inappropriate for an unmarried man and woman to touch, even to shake hands. Is it because they fear it'll lead to sex? Who cares why. It's their choice; it's not hard to respect it.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 6, 2017 15:30:07 GMT -5
“Some people simply choose to avoid even the perception of impropriety.”
Not probably going to slow most men’s careers but could be very harmful to women. Men are more likely than women to have supervisory and high level jobs. Many career boosting teachings and experiences occur during business lunches and one on one meetings. If s man refused to do that with women for fear of the appearance impropriety, it’s likely that women would lose out on opportunities. The lunches and one on one business meetings I had with male supervisors in the male dominated fields I worked in were of great help to me. If my supervisors had refused to offer me opportunities they gave male employees, I would have been at a great disadvantage. Virtually all of my supervisors have been male. At 66, I’ve had only 3 women supervisors.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 6, 2017 22:17:16 GMT -5
There are so many analogies to be drawn here. Just because someone chooses not to participate in activities doesn't mean they fear succumbing to the evil potential therein. Some people simply choose to avoid even the perception of impropriety. That's hardly an attribute to be twisted into something bad, especially when it's a personal choice and not a behavior that's being imposed on others. There are modern cultures within the US where it's inappropriate for an unmarried man and woman to touch, even to shake hands. Is it because they fear it'll lead to sex? Who cares why. It's their choice; it's not hard to respect it. I'm going to respectively and politely disagree with that. Especially in these times of equal rights, and equal treatment. I can only imagine what would have happened to my career had I insisted that " I will not be alone in the office with another woman, another man must be present at all times." Good bye advancement and job! Just having to be alone with them while working the store together or after closing is an "activity that must be monitored by a third party of the same sex. What next? 4 people? 2 men and 2 woman? Who's monitoring who? If I can't be trusted to get the job done, alone, with another man, or with another woman, than I don't want to be there. The way things have gotten I might want a witness in case I am falsely accused. Again I will bring up the double standards I faced as a stay at home dad. The same woman who would leave there kids with me, could not even walk into the house with me, with the kids present? I can imagine how offended a woman would 've been had I insisted not to be alone at any time with any of them while doing all the hundreds of hours of volunteer work. Simply because they're a woman, and I am a man. I doubt there would have been much " I respect that". Instead there would have been "how dare you accuse me of that, and what gives you the right to even think I'm interested in you, or would ever do that". The whole thing can sound really blown out of proportion. Now there's the rub. The power that comes with the coercion of laws that are meant to protect, but can do more harm than good. On a lighter note, I remember a time where I "accidentally" ran my fingers all through a fellow female employees hair! I had only been married a year, so running my hands through my W's hair was a daily ritual! One day we where all gathered together for a staff meeting. One of the ladies I worked with was showing me and the others some new guidelines on the computer. I was standing behind her looking over her shoulder. Well many an evening my wife would show me things on the computer. I would stand behind her looking over her shoulder and run my fingers through her hair. I caught myself doing the same thing to my fellow employee! The setting made it feel so...natural, like a ritual. my mind was focused on the computer. I was totally naive to what I was doing. Plus ,touching hair is not that uncommon in my line of work as an optician. Checking to see how a frame fits behind the ears, and making adjustments. My face turned so red! I pulled back and said "Oh My Gosh!! Did I just do that? You're not my wife?! Everyone laughed! (not me -I was embarrassed,and nervous) She said, "that's okay, I don't mind. I kind of liked it". That never happened again. I still remember it.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 7, 2017 0:41:16 GMT -5
greatcoastal, do as you see fit. My point is that some people choose to be more conservative - that's their choice, for themselves. It doesn't matter if you agree, any more than arguing over their favorite flavor of ice cream.
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Post by WindSister on Dec 7, 2017 15:00:33 GMT -5
What I can't stand is hypocrisy and MAN our world is full of it. I can't say anything else because it's political - but I do not like the world today after watching a news headline update. Seems a new precedent has been set, hope EVERYONE is raised to that standard in our congress, senate and white house now. EVERYONE.
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Post by brian on Dec 7, 2017 19:45:41 GMT -5
What I can't stand is hypocrisy and MAN our world is full of it. I can't say anything else because it's political - but I do not like the world today after watching a news headline update. Seems a new precedent has been set, hope EVERYONE is raised to that standard in our congress, senate and white house now. EVERYONE. But that would make it a very empty place. ‘Nough said.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 20, 2017 11:04:32 GMT -5
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 6, 2018 15:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 6, 2018 20:11:30 GMT -5
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