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Post by aguywithneeds on Nov 3, 2017 23:19:14 GMT -5
So my wife is cuddled up with my son in his bed, she took a pee break and returned to bed with him, and it got me thinking. Are refusers a natural occurrence or are they made, my wife had the typical two parents divorced lived with the shittier parent and forced to take care of younger and older siblings, never had a real healthy perspective of what a relationship was supposed to look like. Did this shape her perspective of how a wife is supposed to act or does she really not like intamacy. I bring up my son because we haven't slept together in the same bed for 6 years because of back pain and the couch is more comfortable, but my little guy was all hopped up on Halloween candy and couldn't fall asleep so she fell asleep with him, now if it was pain after the pee break she would have taken her spot on the couch but instead she nestled right back up in there. I understand my situation, I understand she doesn't desire me, and the last thing she wants to do is have sex with me, I post this as more of a conversation. Are refusers made or is it in their nature, and what would cause someone to deny themselves and the ones they supposedly love. Just a fun conversation to get people's feedback.
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Post by brian on Nov 4, 2017 0:39:08 GMT -5
I honestly don’t know. My roomie has done an excellent job of recreating her parent’s dysfunctional relationship, but my sister in law is quite different sexually. She’s still in a sexless marriage herself, but I believe she is the one being refused. My roomie is the first born, so maybe that has something to do with it?
To me, just more why chasing and simply not worth the effort... except for now as it’s 1:30am and I’m on a “vacation” in Miami with the family, sitting on the floor in a hotel room as my roomie essentially kicked me out of the bed (for snoring)... as she sleeps, snoring, in the bed right now.
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Post by baza on Nov 4, 2017 0:47:29 GMT -5
Personally, I am more inclined to the view that it is mainly "nurture" that shapes our attitude to all sorts of things (including our sexual persona) as adults.
That said, I also think that for some people, their sexual persona is a combination of their parents genetic contribution, and for those people, it is their "nature". An obvious example being where two peoples combination of genetic material results in the offspring being naturally gay. Or left handed. Or having red hair.
Either way, if you have hooked up with a sexually avoidant person - by "nurture" or by "nature" - the end result on you is identical.
On a slightly different tac, a persons sexual avoidance can be unique to you, rather than "in general", but again, the end result on you is still the same.
Finally, in regard to this "denying themselves" sexual pleasure theory, the point needs to be made that if you don't like sex, then you are not actually denying yourself anything of importance. It is true that their avoidance may well be denying *you* as well, but if the stories in here are anything to go on, the avoidant spouse doesn't much care about that.
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Post by h on Nov 4, 2017 6:21:40 GMT -5
Not really sure how my W turned out this way. She came from a home where both her parents were divorced previously and on their second marriage. They are still married but treat each other like shit and we have both said multiple times that they should just end it for both their sakes. She knows they are unhappy and claims to want to avoid turning into them, yet still refuses me, making me feel like I don't matter.
I know that some medical conditions have caused problems for our sex life but she also could have solved these problems years ago if she had simply spoken up to her doctor about it. There were other medical issues in the past before we got married. I think that the treatments for that may have permanently destroyed her libido. Since we waited until marriage, I have no comparison so maybe she never had a libido.
Too many variables in the equation. There will probably never be a solution.
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Post by shamwow on Nov 4, 2017 7:18:25 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the words "nature" and "nurture". It is a catchy phrase and succinct, but does a poor job of describing the situation.
Is your wife genetically predisposed towards celibacy? This seems like an odd evolutionary survival mechanism on the surface but actually makes sense if you think of it. From an evolutionary perspective all that matters is that the woman gets preglnant and gives birth to as many children as possible. The more attention she pays to the kids the better their chance of survival. Paying attention to the mate after our role is done? That can ctually be a distraction. Two people goo goo eyes and fucking all the time don't see if junior is wandering away from camp and will be a tasty snack for a predator.
Of course ignore the mate too long and he may leave decreasing security. The man may find another woman and go through the whole damn cycle again.
When you say nurture when exactly does that stop? I'd use the word conditioning instead. We are conditioned by different people in our lives. Some we have no say over (parents and birth family). Others we have more control over selecting (friends, lovers, the family you make). This conditioning never ends. Most of us in a SM are conditioned by our refuser and in many instances are an accomplice. The difference between us and a dog is that we have a CHOICE as to who conditions us and how we are conditioned.
So nature vs nurture? When we come out of the womb? 100 percent nature. We are hardware without an operating system so to speak. As a young child our parents and family program the hardware. When we go to school we are provrammed there. Finally as we grow to adulthood we have the OPPORTUNITY to program ourselves. Barring mental illness (broken hardware) we have this ability IF WE CHOOSE TO USE IT. If we don't choose to program ourselves then we are stuck with something like a computer from the 20th century with an ancient operating system and random updates being applied by random people...or viruses depending on what chance gives us.
Sorry for the computer perspective but I'm a software developer by trade. Easy analogy for me.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 4, 2017 8:35:34 GMT -5
I used to think nurture was the primary shaper of personality. Now I think it’s nature.
For instance, my 2 adult sons are political opposites despite growing up in a lefty household. I’ve read that recently scientists learned that political orientation can be predicted by the size of the amygdala.
Last night my partner and I had dinner with friends, a sexy, romantic couple of 14 years who also belong to our theater troupe which does shows with lots of adult humor. The guy grew up in a Mennonite family. His father even is a minister. My friend grew up practicing a religion in which the women wore long skirts, no makeup, the only music allowed was religious music; all other music was considered the work of the revel; couples were not even supposed to kiss til married.
He told us that when his brother got married and the minister said, “you may now kiss the bride,” his brother asked the congregation to look away because it would be the couple’s first kiss. (That couple now have 7 kids).
Anyway, I think if one has a strong libido no matter how one was raised, it wins out. This is true even if one was sexually abused. I have sex loving and active friends who were sexually abused or raped and who still have sex. I have other friends who were abused or raped and have major difficulties with sex including no libidos.
Instead of searching for whys with libidoless partners, accept that they are how they are. Figure out if that’s a deal breaker.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 4, 2017 8:38:08 GMT -5
I used to think nurture was the primary shaper of personality. Now I think it’s nature.
For instance, my 2 adult sons are political opposites despite growing up in a lefty household. I’ve read that recently scientists learned that political orientation can be predicted by the size of the amygdala.
Last night my partner and I had dinner with friends, a sexy, romantic couple of 14 years who also belong to our theater troupe which does shows with lots of adult humor. The guy grew up in a Mennonite family. His father even is a minister. My friend grew up practicing a religion in which the women wore long skirts, no makeup, the only music allowed was religious music; all other music was considered the work of the revel; couples were not even supposed to kiss til married.
He told us that when his brother got married and the minister said, “you may now kiss the bride,” his brother asked the congregation to look away because it would be the couple’s first kiss. (That couple now have 7 kids).
Anyway, I think if one has a strong libido no matter how one was raised, it wins out. This is true even if one was sexually abused. I have sex loving and active friends who were sexually abused or raped and who still have sex. I have other friends who were abused or raped and have major difficulties with sex including no libidos.
Instead of searching for whys with libidoless partners, accept that they are how they are. Figure out if that’s a deal breaker.
The computer analogy doesn’t work. Even at birth, babies have their own personalities and preferences. Even identical twins differ in personalities. Babies come with their own software installed. Genetics was the programmer.
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Post by M2G on Nov 4, 2017 8:42:00 GMT -5
It's a great analogy shamwow. Our parents are the first programmers, and if our parents are damaged, then we are at high risk of being damaged - and many times we don't even realize it.
A little girl with a physically abusive father, may look for the opposite in a mate - then, when the mate's passiveness begins to disgust her, she begins to verbally and/or physically abuse him. She doesn't choose this, it's an unconscious choice - programmed in by her parents.
A little boy, seeing that the physical abuser has the more powerful position, chooses a passive mate accordingly and becomes an abuser himself. He may also vow to never be like the abuser, so chooses a strong mate (Just like his mama!) and ends up abused, again, or worse - he begins to repeat his abusers pattern with his own children.
You can switch gender rolls anywhere above, the result is still the same - and the abuse is perpetuated. It's never the fault of the victim, though it sure does feel that way, to the abused.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 4, 2017 8:56:30 GMT -5
It’s very important to realize that many people choose to break the pattern they were brought up in. There is much choice involved in life.
Instead of doing the hard work of self reflection, education, and using other means to change, many people choose to perpetuate the dysfunctional patterns or teachings. Adults have choices in how they live their lives. I do not accept having prudish parents or growing up in a prudish religion as excused for being a refuser. I don’t accept such excuses either for staying with a refuser.
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Post by M2G on Nov 4, 2017 9:40:48 GMT -5
I agree - it's never an excuse to perpetuate bad behavior, though many times it happens that the perpetrator does't even know what kind of damage they're doing. Unconscious choices are real - and/but it's up to the abuser to acknowledge and change, or end up despised by everyone around them. In a normal loving household such as you describe, where children are allowed to develop into their own healthy personality - the outcomes can be drastically different and all good. In an abnormal, abusive family - it's conform or suffer the consequences: "beat me outta of me (Nirvana – Aneurysm)" Into my late teens, I thought all families were just like mine until one day I criticized a good friend for wanting to work for his father. My friend blew up - "I LOVE my Father!" and a light went on: what I went through was NOT normal. Programming or guidance - good contrast. I would stick with guidance every time. Thanks for posting
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Post by takestwototango on Nov 4, 2017 9:54:49 GMT -5
I have actually thought about this a lot with my refuser. He was the middle child of 5 children and grew up in a home where affection was not shown between his parents or siblings. His father left when he was only 9. He had no examples of how to treat or be with a woman, really. I know people make their own choices in life, but I think sometimes their ideas of what is good or bad/right or wrong, become a little skewed, especially if, at a young age, they are not exposed to healthy choices made by parents or role models. I don't really think genetics has much to do with being a refuser, because it is a deviance. And deviance is a nurture problem. At least, that's what I think from my own experiences and studies.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 4, 2017 10:26:58 GMT -5
My brother and I grew up in the same dysfunctional household that included lots of verbal abuse and violent threats. I chose to leave as soon as I could. I also chose to model my life on the healthiest families I could find.
My brother chose to live with my parents until he was in his mid-30s. He then married a mentally ill woman who he knew was pregnant with another man’s child. They continue decades later in a dysfunctional marriage so awful their children were removed from their household.
Are used everything I could including therapy and self-help groups and psychology classes to not become the type of person either of my parents was. Well my marriage have far less sex then I would have wanted., It had no verbal abuse or violent threats. My children did not beg my husband and I to divorce like my brother and I begged my parents to.
We do not choose the lives we are born into but we choose the lives we create for ourselves as adults. We also are born with certain personality traits. Environment has some influence on how we develop but there are probably greater influences including our personality traits as well as the decisions we decide to make about the lives we wish to live.
I know many people who grew up with terrible parents yet became good people themselves and shows healthy relationships or at least have the good sense to leave when I relationship was not what they wanted.
I know others who grew up with wonderful parents and get chose completely different paths for themselves and their children.
Children have limited options when it comes to changing their lives. Adults have many options.
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Post by shamwow on Nov 4, 2017 11:27:38 GMT -5
I used to think nurture was the primary shaper of personality. Now I think it’s nature. For instance, my 2 adult sons are political opposites despite growing up in a lefty household. I’ve read that recently scientists learned that political orientation can be predicted by the size of the amygdala. Last night my partner and I had dinner with friends, a sexy, romantic couple of 14 years who also belong to our theater troupe which does shows with lots of adult humor. The guy grew up in a Mennonite family. His father even is a minister. My friend grew up practicing a religion in which the women wore long skirts, no makeup, the only music allowed was religious music; all other music was considered the work of the revel; couples were not even supposed to kiss til married. He told us that when his brother got married and the minister said, “you may now kiss the bride,” his brother asked the congregation to look away because it would be the couple’s first kiss. (That couple now have 7 kids). Anyway, I think if one has a strong libido no matter how one was raised, it wins out. This is true even if one was sexually abused. I have sex loving and active friends who were sexually abused or raped and who still have sex. I have other friends who were abused or raped and have major difficulties with sex including no libidos. Instead of searching for whys with libidoless partners, accept that they are how they are. Figure out if that’s a deal breaker. The computer analogy doesn’t work. Even at birth, babies have their own personalities and preferences. Even identical twins differ in personalities. Babies come with their own software installed. Genetics was the programmer. Genetics is more of an operating system than what we would consider a software application. And yes I do understand that an operating system IS a type of software. The reason you see a personality at birth is that birth is not the same as conception. While the mother is bringing the baby to term the child is exposed to multitudes of indirect stimulation. They can tell if the environment is safe and secure or if the mother is stressed. This is the reason women are and should be made comfortable during pregnancy. During the 9 months of pregnancy, the very FIRST programming is being performed, albeit without much data being available. At birth? The operating system is in place and the child experiences a torrent of stimulation. This stimulation in the first few hours is likely more than the first 9 months. As a result the personality grows by leaps and bounds. This is when the real programming begins. From there as I outlined, you have family, friends, teachers, lovers, spouses, children all helping write the software that becomes "you". The difference between us and lower animals is that we have the conscious ability to write our own code. We never write in a vacuum. We never get a blank slate. But we do have this power to influence... For better or worse. With tremendous work, tremendous trauma, or with chemical substances, you can even change the operating system itself. Whether we consciously choose do this it is up to us. So yes. The computer analogy fits very well, provided you understand what an operating system does, its limitations, and how it can be upgraded. Just thinking of this fills me with awe.
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Post by aguywithneeds on Nov 4, 2017 15:22:39 GMT -5
These are some good responses, and good points. I myself was brought up in a very abusive household, and my mom actually said, me and your step dad talked about wether I would be the abuser, or abused, see how that turned out. I didn't even like my step dad until I was 20 so there's that. My wife grew up with her abusive mother who had men on a revolving door so the only thing that was a constant was her siblings. But also she herself was very sexual until her late 20s so is nature taking over
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Post by workingonit on Nov 4, 2017 18:18:05 GMT -5
In my opinion, it is an interesting question, more if someone is still in their marriage, trying to work on it. For me, we are in therapy now and this is some of the first stuff he is having us work on. What are the ways we were taught about sex? Both the actual sex messaging from parents and the ways they represented sex to us.
For my h, his father cheated on his mother and there was tons of pain, fighting, etc. His father was really emotionally abusive and always had lots of girlfriends and women around. His mother, on the other hand, who represented the solid parent with whom he lived 98% of the time, became very asexual and overweight. She never again dated and became very obese. She never talked to him about sex or encouraged him. She worked on herself emotionally and spiritually and modeled that for him however he developed the sense that sex and intimacy are really unsafe.
Ironically, my h was really thin when we got married. Within the first year he started putting on weight. He is now quite overweight and quite asexual. The problem is it is really NOT his nature to be asexual. He masturbates (at least several times weekly that I know of) and reports he is very sexually frustrated.
It may be all academic. I don't see how you really undo your nature or nurture without a shit load of work- and I am not convinced he is up for that work or I am up for living with a half assed approach to intimacy. I also don't see how we get that pattern of him shutting down around intimacy out of our marriage after 17 years. For now, though, I am in it and we are working. Even if this therapy just gives us a greater knowledge of ourselves I think it is a worthwhile endeavor. I do not, however, believe it will result in actual sex.
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