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Post by ironhamster on Oct 25, 2017 12:34:37 GMT -5
You want at least one account you can readily draw from that your spouse cannot get to. It does not need to be secret, just in your control.
I recall one of the women on this forum telling that her husband had shut her out of everything, and, on her plane ride back home she could not even buy a bottle of water. I would not want anyone to end up in a similar situation.
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Post by csl on Oct 25, 2017 14:51:55 GMT -5
James, The blog you describe sounds like my New Tool post, from a couple of years ago. I agree with Baza's simple reply, wholeheartedly: Short version: Wife: You're trying to coerce me! You: So? Long version: Wife: You're trying to coerce me! You: (long version) No, I'm not. I'm just telling you that I am no longer willing to live in a sexless marriage, that it is a deal-breaker for me. Your choice.I would recommend that you listen to Sexy Marriage Radio podcast, Episode #286, from this past April, if you can tolerate someone coming at it from a religious point of view. It is on sexless marriages, and the two hosts, Corey Allan and Shannon Etheridge, do a good job presenting info on the topic. What is interesting is that Etheridge describes how some of the women who come to her Woman At The Well workshops because they know that they are no/low libido and that they want to change, as they know that they are hurting their husbands. Allan asks her why these women are different from wives who don't care about their sexlessness, and Etheridge's reply is insightful: "They realize that they have something to lose." Your wife may say you are "coercing" her? Others are correct is saying that she is coercing you, trying to bully you into staying in a SM.
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Post by shamwow on Oct 25, 2017 15:00:01 GMT -5
Wow, you sound just like I did a year ago!
I also had a 6 year plan. Upon notifying her we were getting a divorce, that 6 year plan dropped to 3 years, then to 18 months, then the actual 6 months it turned out to be. To paraphrase the old military quote: War is a democracy, the enemy gets a vote. Once that ball gets rolling, your "plan" may not turn out as you expect. Actually, scratch that. It WILL not turn out as you expect.
I also didn't want to cede the high moral ground and didn't cheat. In retrospect, I'm SO glad that I made that decision. I know that I would have been caught, and it is so much easier to "drift apart" rather than have to defend breaking one's vows (even though she broke them already).
The only other item on the 6 year plan is that you need to go to a lawyer NOW. I don't know how it is in your jurisdiction, but at certain points, you may have to pay spousal support to a backbreaking level. 20 years is one of those wonderful milestones. If you've decided to leave, see a lawyer. Now.
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Post by lwoetin on Oct 25, 2017 15:05:24 GMT -5
You are making progress in dealing with your SM. If you aren't ready to separate, then you aren't serious enough to affect any change. I don't consider telling your wife... that you will leave due to SM... a coercion. I think of it as communication. If you communicate, it tells me you want to work on your marriage. If you just want out, then don't tell her anything.....but May 2024 seems like an eternity, I am skeptical you will survive with your sanity intact.
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Post by brian on Oct 25, 2017 19:38:35 GMT -5
Interesting thread, I'm also planning on leaving in a few years. Like you I'm concerned about whether to tell my wife for fear of it being misinterpreted as coercion. Yet, as has been said, if she doesn't see that our marriage is going to end that also seems a bit unfair. I've seen lots of threads on other fora from wives who are "suddenly" dumped with no prior knowledge anything was wrong. My own wife believes our situation is normal! Struggling to square that particular circle and retain my conscience... Whether it’s “normal” or not is immaterial. At least half of the people in the relationship are unhappy the way things are. It’s not about making one or the other accept/settle/capitulate to a situation that is unfulfilling. If it isn’t working. If it isn’t ever going to get better. Why bury your head in the sand?
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Post by GeekGoddess on Oct 25, 2017 22:43:02 GMT -5
I don’t believe it is coercion to make your life different. I tried asking my H for more (I was always the one to bring this up, as I found out by reading old journals). At the end, I just needed to admit to myself that I would rather be alone than be trapped in my SM. The only thing that could save me was my own actions. He was not happy to hear I had seen a lawyer. He was not happy to hear that I had a plan to move out. He wasn’t happy about much else either, though, and my choices came down to letting him continue to drag me into misery or to leave & Chance misery on my own (which would still be an upgrade, in my judgment, because at least I’d have a CHANCE at happiness). Taking responsibility for your own choices & path is not coercion. Still - I probably need to check your backstory because I’m floored by your timeline. That’s just me, though. I have no biological kids & that means I don’t comprehend the whole “stay for the kids to learn how to dysfunction” mindset. I really think one of the best things a parent can do is model self-care. Which sometimes means splitting the marriage & living your life in a way that doesn’t kill our souls. Again, that’s just me. Welcome to the group.
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Post by mescaline on Oct 25, 2017 23:34:32 GMT -5
I've been struggling with something similar. From a few years ago, my therapist (a woman) weighed in this way: You say you want to stay in the marriage a bit longer because you want to raise your kid, and you are -- in principle -- open to staying in the marriage if things got better -- even though you mostly believe they won't. So even if you'd say there is a "strong chance" you are going to want to leave someday, this is not "someday" yet. Any manner of things may change in your circumstances, and change your mind. So you are NOT under any obligation to disclose a "possible future" even if it is likely. After all, a zillion things are "possible futures". She's an adult; she can work out "possible futures" on her own, and act accordingly.
So that has been one of the cornerstones of my decision NOT to drop the "I'm leaving in two years" H-bomb. That... and I'd have to live in the radioactive wasteland of our household for another two years. I think my wife and I are in a strange "don't ask, don't tell" state. I've actively declined her request of me to promise "I'll stay forever". She doesn't like that I'm leaving the door open. But... what can I say. Even if the door were shut, divorce is always a "possible future" for a marriage. I like that Dan, the honesty is there but without the fallout from dropping the D bomb. I suspect this is the way it'll sit with me for a while yet. At least while I'm planning my future anyway. It still feels a bit mercenary, but your therapist does paint a very convincing argument - nothing is set in stone in life and anything can come along to upset the applecart at any point, so why pretend otherwise!
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Post by mescaline on Oct 25, 2017 23:42:02 GMT -5
Whether it’s “normal” or not is immaterial. At least half of the people in the relationship are unhappy the way things are. It’s not about making one or the other accept/settle/capitulate to a situation that is unfulfilling. If it isn’t working. If it isn’t ever going to get better. Why bury your head in the sand? I agree, it is immaterial. I disagree that it isn't making one or the other accept though. It is about making me accept it in the short/medium term. I still have responsibilities to fulfil and want to see my kids grow up (though I fully accept these are selfish reasons). I can't do that without making the appropriate plans and making sure that finances are secured one way or another to protect them in the longer term. I don't really see it is burying my head in the sand, I know there's a problem, I know it is very unlikely to change so I'm planning on getting out, but it's going to take a while to effect that final result. In the meantime, there's this place!
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Post by james on Oct 26, 2017 2:49:02 GMT -5
My sincere thanks to all of you who have commented on this thread. I am blown away by the range and depth of insights offered! I will comment in detail in the next few days. I am re-thinking my position on this and will come up with an alternative scenario based on your thoughts/suggestions.
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Post by mescaline on Oct 26, 2017 3:14:24 GMT -5
Good luck James, it's a lot to think about.
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Post by snowman12345 on Oct 26, 2017 5:06:44 GMT -5
James, any transaction between human beings is a form of coercion. I walk in to the coffee shop and order - the barista holds my order for ransom until I pay up. I have to agree with bballgirl - keep your plans to yourself, get your ducks in a row, see a lawyer and then put the plan into action. Don't let her have an opportunity to block some portion of your plan. Most of all, you cannot give a fuck. There will be pain, but it will pass. Good luck and I hope you find peace.
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Post by ironhamster on Oct 26, 2017 6:59:40 GMT -5
^^^^^ All that.
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Post by h on Oct 26, 2017 7:25:48 GMT -5
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Post by brian on Oct 26, 2017 19:00:38 GMT -5
Oh gawd! I feel like I’m at an inspirational speech and I’m raising my hand for every statement made.
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Post by james on Nov 7, 2017 7:11:06 GMT -5
Thank you for again for all your kind and very helpful comments. Just to respond to some specific queries posted (Baza, Ironhamster, Miles2go):
* I surprised myself by going to see a lawyer a few months back. The content of the conversation wasn't as big a deal as the fact that I took the step in the first place. There aren't major financial issues, it will be a 50-50 split. I have a few more questions about this and will be going elsewhere for a free initial consult in due course (and elsewhere after that... I look on it as shopping around!). * I do have a separate bank account, that's another thing I did this year. I was so paranoid my wife could see it online along with our joint account that I went into the bank and asked one of their people to reassure me that she couldn’t. I feel more secure having this. * I have put a huge amount of effort into fixing my psychological issues. My depression/anxiety were mainly work-related and I changed my job about 5 years ago, with great improvement. The problem then morphed into a kind of seasonal affective disorder and this autumn I've put a ton of steps in place to stop it happening. So far so good ... fingers crossed. I even have a SAD lamp on my desk- it's great!
Comments to my post were incredibly helpful, and convinced me that the approach I outlined would not work and could backfire badly. Dan summed it up with the phrase “living in a radioactive wasteland”, which on reflection I think is what I would end with if I did this. Shamwow your story seems to show that if you make the decision in your head that you are going to leave, then it has to be now or more or less now- you can't decide to leave... later. It will show, you can't hide it, your partner will pick up on it. And then you embark on the Shamwow ‘compressed timeline’ trajectory - which could be a good thing of course, just not sure I'm ready for it. A better approach for me now seems to be try to make it clear that I am unhappy with the current situation without putting a timeline on it or saying what I might do, until I am ready to act. Csl, the sexymarriageradio #286 put this really well. You don’t say what you plan to do, you just say “I don’t want to live in a sexless marriage”, and keep saying that. And don’t get drawn on what that actually means- it’s obvious what it means: sex with you wife or leave the relationship and sex with someone else. (ie avoid coercion or even appearance of it).
Mescaline does highlight the quandary though, and this is what csl was trying to address in his blog, when he said that you should give a warning shot ahead of time. If you say nothing too definite and then "suddenly" leave, that is unfair. Dan made a point about "unknown futures" but that could be seen as disingenuous. If you are really planning to leave all along, and just being mealy-mouthed about ‘all things being possible’, then that is arguably insincere. It seems to boil down to this: if you are planning to leave, then you are, one way or another, planning to leave now, and planning to leave in 6 years is actually a meaningless concept.
My revised plan is to talk to lawyers, a financial advisor and to pick a couple of close friends to talk it over with. I have two friends in mind already. I will say nothing to my wife beyond “I don’t want to live in a sexless marriage”. As the six year deadline gets closer, she will hear this refrain more and more, and if she does nothing about it, well, she will have chosen to end the marriage. Bearing in mind that you can’t force your partner to want sex with you (see ironhamster’s recent thread), then she will have to make the running in terms of getting our sex life back off the ground.
Part of me is disappointed because I like to have a definite plan to work towards and this seems a bit… planless. But I think it’s the best I can do for now. Staying for the kids- well that’s a whole book, never mind a thread! That is the reason, though. Thanks again to all.
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