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Post by baza on Aug 18, 2017 2:38:24 GMT -5
There's been a few posts recently about the trials and tribulations of relationships post ILIASM shithole from members who are only fairly recently out, some of whom are exploring new relationships, and a few who are exploring relationships with other members of this group. That's pretty much my experience, so I thought I'd put down my thoughts about the subject. I believe that once you get out of an ILIASM deal, you have a heap of "Un-Learning" to do. If you are anything like me, your experience in an ILIASM shithole taught you to react to certain situations in a certain way to "keep the peace" or protect your emotions or to stop from exploding. They may have been really good and useful strategies in your ILIASM deal, but they may be poisonous in your new situation. You may have to Un-Learn a lot of them. Anecdote (I think I've recounted this one before) It is 2010 and Ms enna and I have been living together a couple of months. She gets home this particular day, and I can tell that there's something up. I fish around a bit, and the suddenly she blurts out "I bought a new sewing machine". "Oh, that's good" I say, whilst thinking "I wonder if she is about to add "and I ploughed your car into a tree on the way home". There is no such incident and I cannot see for the life of me what is the big deal here. We discuss sewing machines (about which I know fuck all) and gradually tease the story out of her. In a previous life, Ms enna was used to a spouse who would have arcked up at such an event, been critical of the purchase, the price, the necessity etc etc etc. and she had a genuine fear that I might be tarred with the same brush. She must have apologised for this purchase 8 or 10 times in the next hour or so. And my reassuring responses became more and more flippant with each apology (and I can do a very good line in flippancy !!!) She had managed to tar me with the same brush as her prior spouse. And I had managed to trivialise her anxiety. Not good. But a really good wake up call for us both that we both had a lot to Un-Learn about our initial reactions to some things and situations. Some minor, some major. Early days, we found other things where reactions we had carried forward from our old deals were not at all helpful in our new joint deal. And these things needed to be Un-Learned. There was some serious shit in these things too, far more dramatic than the "sewing machine" incident. We became rather good at de-constructing situations, then putting them back together in ways we could identify with. We became far more attuned to each others likely response to a given situation might be instead of what past experience may have had us fearing what response might be forthcoming. The underying principle was to try and ensure that we were not making each other pay for mistakes made in other relationships, and I think this is key. Ms enna is Ms enna, she is not the former Mrs baz. And baz is baz. Not the former Mr enna. It is a brand new dynamic, and past players are not relevant - APART FROM THE LESSONS THEY TAUGHT US. And of course all the while this Un-Learning was going on, we were also Learning-Afresh what worked for us. And that Un-Learning the useless and Learning-Afresh the useful propelled the relationship forward at warp speed. But not without the odd bit of Un-Learning that still crops up after 7+ years. Something Brother flashjohn wrote in another thread today made a big impression on me. He said words about his new relationship to the effect that he feared "the other shoe dropping" but Kimmie assured him there was no other shoe about to drop. In ILIASM deals, shoes seem to drop relentlessly and continuously.
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Post by bballgirl on Aug 18, 2017 8:36:29 GMT -5
Great post and great message. I'm out a year and a half and I have learned: 1)to advocate for myself better 2)don't settle 3)compatibility is tough to find 4) it's ok to not have a romantic partner if they aren't the right one 5)don't settle - that deserves to be said twice! 6) to welcome rejection and it's not a bad thing, it saves years of being with the wrong one.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 18, 2017 9:28:57 GMT -5
6) to welcome rejection and it's not a bad thing, it saves years of being with the wrong one. It's going to take A LOT to get over that one! Welcoming rejection! A Lot of time, and some serious self LOVE building, before I can put away the anger, fear, guilt, resentment, instant blame and acceptance of being rejected. A difficult part of even going near the dating scene. Just the slightest touch of a woman's hand, feeling her hair, a hug where I feel her breasts, even a slight contact against my arm when in the dental chair, stays with me for days. No kidding. Those happen during acquaintances. It's going to be a whole different scenario when I desire someone and show it, ask for it, and get rejected. There's a huge fear of being lead into the trap, and then dropped. I'll be working on my self first, sorting out my own "family-finance" issues. Meanwhile that "fear" will still linger. I am looking forward to and putting HOPE in moving out, ending the divorce, and getting the fresh new "zip code therapy". Some "action"- to solve the problem. Until then it's a state of limbo. Just too many thoughts of "rejection".
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Post by shamwow on Aug 18, 2017 16:05:46 GMT -5
baza, ballofconfusion and I have had no such problems in the slightest. All is well and harmonious at all times, and neither of us carries any baggage from our previous relationships. hahahahahahahaha! One of the things we have had to work HARD at is not walking on eggshells on certain subjects. Sometimes, the subjects are trivial, similar to your sewing machine example. Other times, they are something both of us are quite fearful of (rejection, abandonment, etc...). It is SO easy to read something into someone else's behavior when all you've really known is an abusive relationship. I shudder to think how damaged I'd be if I was walking this path with someone who had not also walked it. I'd be a train wreck. We have an absolute, total, and complete "no bullshit" policy. When something is bothering one of us, we NEED to tell the other one, explore / explain what we are feeling, and get it out. Neither of us have to worry about being rejected simply because we are scared. Neither of us will reject the other just because they are scared. This is TRUE intimacy, and something neither of us have ever known before. Knowing that makes things easier. Today, we seldom walk on eggshells. And as time goes by experience shows each of us that there is not another "shoe to drop". It is a strange feeling, caring about someone and not expecting to be rejected or sucker-punched on a regular basis. I kinda like it.
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Post by Caris on Aug 18, 2017 19:45:06 GMT -5
A great post, Baz. I do think it must be easier when two people have a common experience, like a SM. At least you will go through it together, and understand why it's happening. I think a SM escapee may have a harder time with a new partner who has never experienced the same. I think unless that person is patient and understanding, the anxiety of the SM person can very well poison the relationship, and then you have a self-fulfilling prophecy that validates the SM person's fear of rejection.
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 18, 2017 21:46:29 GMT -5
Whether the best post sm relationship is with a person from a similar situation depends on the people involved.
When I left my marriage, I did not want to be with a partner who had been refused and had a lot of sexual baggage. I wanted a partner who was sexually healthy and confident and experienced. I wanted someone whom I' could enjoy without anxiety about whether sex would trigger his feelings about prior rejections. I did not want someone who would be hoping I'd heal him or would be concerned about triggering my anxieties..'
I didn't tell him until months after we'd been intimate that before him, it had been 8 years since I'd had sex. I've never told him about the insecurities I used to have. He treats me as a sexy, exoerienced, desirable woman so this has worked for me.
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Post by WindSister on Aug 18, 2017 22:50:40 GMT -5
Grandkids are sleeping, we are enjoying a preseason football game (don't get the reason for pre season, but here we are). Sneaking in to say I'm with someone who wasn't in a SM, but has been awesome for me. He has my back. That's new to me and something I have had to come to learn and trust. He loves me for who I project myself to be, and projects that to others.... BUT... He ALSO loves me for who I really am. Flaws, quirks, and all. That part amazes me on a regular basis. Among other things.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 17:32:46 GMT -5
Great post and great message. I'm out a year and a half and I have learned: 1)to advocate for myself better 2)don't settle 3)compatibility is tough to find 4) it's ok to not have a romantic partner if they aren't the right one 5)don't settle - that deserves to be said twice! 6) to welcome rejection and it's not a bad thing, it saves years of being with the wrong one. bballgirl, this is so good I just screenshotted it so I can go back to it - as many times as I need to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 17:37:49 GMT -5
And the other side of the fear that someone will reject you - learning to gently say no and extricate yourself when someone you date is into you, but you're not into them.
Having to listen to that little voice in your head that says, "Maybe you'd better not be too picky. You're not all that yourself, and you're getting older. What if this perfectly nice person is your last chance?"
I drive myself crazy.
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Post by bballgirl on Aug 19, 2017 17:45:46 GMT -5
Great post and great message. I'm out a year and a half and I have learned: 1)to advocate for myself better 2)don't settle 3)compatibility is tough to find 4) it's ok to not have a romantic partner if they aren't the right one 5)don't settle - that deserves to be said twice! 6) to welcome rejection and it's not a bad thing, it saves years of being with the wrong one. bballgirl, this is so good I just screenshotted it so I can go back to it - as many times as I need to. I wish I would have advocated for myself better with my ex maybe we would have had a better marriage. I allowed him to treat me poorly and I accept responsibility for that.
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Post by bballgirl on Aug 19, 2017 17:49:33 GMT -5
And the other side of the fear that someone will reject you - learning to gently say no and extricate yourself when someone you date is into you, but you're not into them. Having to listen to that little voice in your head that says, "Maybe you'd better not be too picky. You're not all that yourself, and you're getting older. What if this perfectly nice person is your last chance?" I drive myself crazy. I get that and I met a man in April, dated him in May - sex was good but not great, blew him off in June, gave him another chance in July and figured out I was right in June. You can't manufacture chemistry it's either there or it's not. Never settle.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 18:21:05 GMT -5
And the other side of the fear that someone will reject you - learning to gently say no and extricate yourself when someone you date is into you, but you're not into them. Having to listen to that little voice in your head that says, "Maybe you'd better not be too picky. You're not all that yourself, and you're getting older. What if this perfectly nice person is your last chance?" I drive myself crazy. I get that and I met a man in April, dated him in May - sex was good but not great, blew him off in June, gave him another chance in July and figured out I was right in June. You can't manufacture chemistry it's either there or it's not. Never settle. I need people to keep telling me, "Don't settle," over and over and over again. This Saturday, I'm by myself. Last Saturday, I was on a date with that perfectly nice man who I just wasn't into. If I'd talked to him more during the past week, I probably could have been with him tonight. But the thing is.....the last few times we got together, I did *not* want to be sexual with him. I really wish there was a dating website for people who would like to hang out as "just friends" even if the romantic/sexual feelings aren't there. I want to be in a real relationship again. That's what I want to see in my future. Sometimes I think I need to stop being too picky. But then if I had doubts, and let things get serious anyway - how "real" would that relationship be? Maybe part of my problem is that I can be slow to get more serious, slow to get deeper with a person. But isn't it supposed to be good to go slowly? I think I was dating Mr. Kat for about 6 months before I really felt like I was in love with him. Anyway, I'm not going to lurk alone in my apartment tonight. I think I'll go hang out at the bookstore.
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Post by bballgirl on Aug 19, 2017 18:44:42 GMT -5
The bookstore is a good idea to get out. If you don't feel like being sexual when you first meet a man you can give it a second or third chance but I reccomend cutting bait quickly. No such thing as being too picky - you deserve what you want. You owe that to yourself and to the person persuing you. If you aren't into them be honest they should be mature enough to appreciate that. Two weekends ago I met a man for coffee. We had been talking and flirting on the phone all week. After coffee he asked for a hug but not a kiss and I could tell he wasn't into me. He called me after and said he's not looking for a relationship but he has this curiosity to see me naked and can tell I have a naughty side. Neither of us contacted each other after that phone call. My point I appreciated his honesty to not waste my time.
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Post by TMD on Aug 19, 2017 18:49:41 GMT -5
WindSister included, "trust." Think this is also critical in the un/learning process. Trusting ones' self, trusting others, etc. It might be easy to fall back into habits. For example, I'm not used to a partner wanting to talk through things. Roommate avoids difficult conversations, while AP embraces them. It's not always easy to tackle tough subjects, but there is this great result in doing so: resolution, to each person's satisfaction. I was going to post this in a separate thread, but think it has relevance here; it's Brene Brown on how to share one's perspective in a healthy way, "the story I'm making up:" www.businessinsider.com/brene-browns-biggest-life-hack-is-a-simple-phrase-2015-8I'll let you all know when I use it... In fact, I can think of a good reason to, right now, with the roommate who is still avoiding topic of separation (we need to talk because I paid for 3 airfares to Hawaii for me and the girls; he needs to know about this, right?). ;-)
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Post by TMD on Aug 19, 2017 18:51:40 GMT -5
I'd love to join you at the bookstore, @smartkat.
I think you are wise to know what you want and what you don't want. I wouldn't call that picky.
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