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Post by JMX on Jul 30, 2017 23:55:02 GMT -5
Nothing has been super new until this week.
Background: H has been going to individual therapy when we decided that was better than continuing couples' counseling because, I've said all I am going or need to say.
Anywho... he's not always talkative. He was about 5 nights ago. Basically, we were discussing work situations and how some "ladies in accounting" have a hard-on for trying to get people fired - seriously, the turnover is ridiculous and is usually on attractive females. H usually stays above the fray, but got into the cross-hairs by bringing to his boss' attention that they needed to act now to hit their numbers. It wasn't so much a slam on accounting, more on the company as a whole - to kind of correct before it was too late. Anyway, of course, they felt like he was throwing them under the bus. So they have been mean and nasty to him for a couple of weeks now. So we discussed different methods of how to reach out to them in various scenarios both confrontational as well as innocuous.
Then he said - "well, I am not good at confrontation and it's been something I have been discussing with (counselor)."
Me: "Oh. I get it. Well, have you come to any conclusions about that?"
H: "he keeps asking me why I care about others' feelings?"
Here's where I break with the counselor. Yes he IS non-confrontational however, a lot of his work-life actions are in direct correlation to an industry that sheds people left and right, his past unemployment, and the fact that he loves this company and doesn't want it to end.
Me: "well, I can see this is difficult. How will you handle it?"
H went into ways he could handle it and we discussed all options as well as repercussions.
H: "(Counselor) would like for you to come in next session.
Me: "really? Why? Is this when you tell me you're okay with divorce and we split amicably? Yikes!"
H: "I realized that I am always non-confrontational and it has been mean to you too. I wasn't trying to be mean, I thought I was being kind."
Me: okay (pours glass of wine).
H: (crying now - never seen that man cry but maybe twice) "you trigger memories of (abusive step father) when you drink. Sometimes. Sometimes, you are belligerent. I think it turned me off and I buried it so deep that I could not recognize it. And, I don't think that it's your fault, I turned away from you first and then you got belligerent. Maybe it was my doing first, I just want to say that I am sorry, I know what I did, and I want to thank you for staying and working through this with me... thank you for my family."
And then he hugged me. And it was a real, buried -in-my-neck hug. And then, he composed himself.
I was shocked. I believed I was his mother to him, never his stepfather. I am social like her, we both enjoy our liquor. But I never knew his stepfather. At least, not the abusive one that killed himself after she finally left him. It was a decade before me.
However, now I REALLY know. In the moment that I made him a joke - in a stupid card game 12 years ago by cheating - and when he acted irrationally and hit me - I was that stepfather- verbally abusing him in public, making him feel LESS again. Ans he got to act out on someone smaller than him. That is the moment I don't know if I can ever live down. That was the moment he went from loving me to being completely turned off by me. I absolutely know it. He stopped drinking to excess after that, because he was scared of who he became that night (stepfather). He never laid a finger on me since - in more ways than one.
So... I have found my "why".
I think I kind of knew it in a way. I just didn't believe I was the stepfather in this madness. I never saw myself as a monster in this - but, I can see where I triggered his behavior. And, no, I don't blame myself.
I will go to the counselor and see what is next. I don't think it matters necessarily, because 5 days ago was the hallmark of openness and nothing has really changed.
The one thing that has changed over the last year - and I am happy to report to my friends that have known me for years - I am rolling in the dough this year! This has resolved a lot of our problems that were outside of our control. I have single-handedly changed our financial situation which makes me super happy and also cautious.
I have remained optimistic about certain things and been extremely annoyed at other things. If we were good sexually, these things would not be an issue, but they are because we aren't. I have come full-circle - everything else is pretty great bar the sex NOW.
I have stayed because I cannot rationalize anything other than 50/50 on whether it's better or not for us to stay together for the kids. I have thought, and read and read about this issue. We are not cold to each other. If that ratio were even 60/40 either way - I could abide staying or going.
I am just not sure.
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Post by unmatched on Jul 31, 2017 0:10:15 GMT -5
This probably doesn't help, but since we decided to split I keep finding different parts of me that I have closed down or shut off and that are wanting to open up and breathe and see the sunlight again. Whenever we spend time apart I can feel my heart opening up, and when we are together for a week I suddenly realise it has closed again. And this at the same time as I am feeling as much love for her as I have felt in ages. So I guess I feel that this isn't something you can think your way through, because until you have some space or distance you can't really feel the full cost of living in a situation where your heart is not open and where you don't feel loved in the way that you need. But your kids are learning from you every day.
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Post by JMX on Jul 31, 2017 0:12:05 GMT -5
This probably doesn't help, but since we decided to split I keep finding different parts of me that I have closed down or shut off and that are wanting to open up and breathe and see the sunlight again. Whenever we spend time apart I can feel my heart opening up, and when we are together for a week I suddenly realise it has closed again. And this at the same time as I am feeling as much love for her as I have felt in ages. So I guess I feel that this isn't something you can think your way through, because until you have some space or distance you can't really feel the full cost of living in a situation where your heart is not open and where you don't feel loved in the way that you need. But your kids are learning from you every day. Why you gotta be so rational? ❤️you. |
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Post by baza on Jul 31, 2017 1:12:34 GMT -5
I guess he has to be given credit for his counselling regime Sister JMX , but the story again reads like it is you still doing the majority of the heavy lifting here. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 31, 2017 4:52:12 GMT -5
JMX One step at a time honey. This is progress in its own way. I think it takes time and a different amount of time for everyone to know when it's the right time to leave and the age of kids are part of that equation. You are making forward progress and that's what counts. Hugs Xoxo
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So...
Jul 31, 2017 5:53:47 GMT -5
Post by McRoomMate on Jul 31, 2017 5:53:47 GMT -5
It has been said elsewhere the most common reasons for an SM are ATTRACTION and/or RESPECT are missing.
And it is a question of actions, not what any one says that determines that.
Completely understandable about the question of children. I too have done a lot of research on that - the answers are all over the place.
Probably the most "practical" answer I read was that if the couple is getting along I will post an excerpt and link in the following post.
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Post by McRoomMate on Jul 31, 2017 5:56:23 GMT -5
STAYING TOGETHER FOR THE KIDS / BEST TIME TO DIVORCE? www.divorcemag.com/articles/what-is-the-best-time-to-divorceExcerpt below. Note bold highlights are my own. Staying Together for the Kids People also ask me, "Is it bad for my children if I stay in an unhappy marriage? Or would they be better off if we divorce?" I'm afraid the answer to this is yes and no. The notion that your child is unhappy because you're unhappy is simply not true. If your external behavior looks normal and you really enjoy being a parent – while your internal state is lonely or dying from boredom – your child may not notice your unhappiness. Children can't read your internal state unless it shows up directly in your relationship with them. They have no key to your sex life. They're not mind readers. Moreover, they have no way to understand the complexity of your marital relationship. I'm afraid that children who have not yet reached adolescence cannot comprehend why a violent person just doesn't stop if they are asked to show some restraint. They have no clue as to why a person behaves badly when drunk. The choice to divorce is always a subjective, personal decision. No one can tell you exactly what the future holds. It may bring the man or woman of your dreams. I've seen that happen to young and old adults alike, although your chances diminish with age because the market is smaller. I'm reminded of one woman in her 50s who divorced her husband because she had grown to hate him. Within six months, she met a kind, loving man at her church who was exactly what she wanted in a partner. My point is that no one can measure how unhappy you are or predict what new opportunities divorce will bring. Only you can weigh the balance of inner misery and satisfaction in your life. In fact, all of us probably know couples who don't love each other but find contentment in work, friends, and parenthood. Some may have given up the dream of romantic love or perhaps they never wanted a passionate relationship from the start. Clearly, disappointment in a marriage depends almost entirely on where you set your sights to begin with, and these are subject to change. One recent study of unhappy marriages found that many embattled but intact couples, five years later, were much happier and reported that their marriages were good. So it is important not to make critical decisions in the heat of your latest disappointments. Things may look very different if you wait a few months. You may change your mind altogether. From your children's perspective, the decision to divorce relates to how your unhappiness is affecting your ability to be a good parent. If you and your spouse enjoy being parents and together maintain a moral and protected life for your children, then I think you should consider staying together. I know many couples who have taken this path. They take great pride in their children and have decided, on balance, that it was a good way for them to go. Some have discreet extramarital affairs when they are away from home. Others settle for the limited love and sexuality in the marriage that they have. But if your unhappiness dominates your life, then you have to ask yourself probingly if one or both of you will be better parents after divorcing. Will your children be better off? These are hard questions, but again, only you can know your pain and satisfaction, how these play out now in the lives of your children, and how they are likely to play out in the future. The familiar question – "Is it better to stay married or not?" – doesn't capture the many gradations or nuances of marriage. Nor does it touch on the source of marital problems and the extent to which they can be tolerated within an intact marriage. On the other hand, if you feel humiliated, emotionally abused, mocked, and derided in your marriage, or just wake up miserable each day, you can use the divorce to take new pride in yourself. As an emancipated parent, you can become a far better role model and share with your children your new sense of freedom. You can take the opportunity to improve your life with knowledge that you didn't have when you were younger. You can become a new kind of adult who has had the courage to bring about change in your life and the lives of your children. A new world is ahead of you, and it's yours to define. |
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Post by lifeinwoodinville on Jul 31, 2017 9:07:26 GMT -5
I am happy for you that you have found your why. I come from a family of alcoholics, my dad is somehow still alive after 50+ years of heavy drinking. I know first hand the problems that it can cause. I have lots and lots of drunk dad stories. When I got married I told my wife she was not allowed to get drunk that day, I wasn't going to put up with that.
I don't drink alcohol, primarily because it does not mix with my Parkinson's meds, but to be honest, I consider that to be a blessing. I will not do to my kids what my dad did to me. Your husband has a long road ahead of him, be there for him, if he's a smart man, he will reward you for it.
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Post by twotimesone on Jul 31, 2017 9:21:59 GMT -5
STAYING TOGETHER FOR THE KIDS / BEST TIME TO DIVORCE? www.divorcemag.com/articles/what-is-the-best-time-to-divorceExcerpt below. Note bold highlights are my own. Staying Together for the Kids People also ask me, "Is it bad for my children if I stay in an unhappy marriage? Or would they be better off if we divorce?" I'm afraid the answer to this is yes and no. The notion that your child is unhappy because you're unhappy is simply not true. If your external behavior looks normal and you really enjoy being a parent – while your internal state is lonely or dying from boredom – your child may not notice your unhappiness. Children can't read your internal state unless it shows up directly in your relationship with them. They have no key to your sex life. They're not mind readers. Moreover, they have no way to understand the complexity of your marital relationship. I'm afraid that children who have not yet reached adolescence cannot comprehend why a violent person just doesn't stop if they are asked to show some restraint. They have no clue as to why a person behaves badly when drunk. The choice to divorce is always a subjective, personal decision. No one can tell you exactly what the future holds. It may bring the man or woman of your dreams. I've seen that happen to young and old adults alike, although your chances diminish with age because the market is smaller. I'm reminded of one woman in her 50s who divorced her husband because she had grown to hate him. Within six months, she met a kind, loving man at her church who was exactly what she wanted in a partner. My point is that no one can measure how unhappy you are or predict what new opportunities divorce will bring. Only you can weigh the balance of inner misery and satisfaction in your life. In fact, all of us probably know couples who don't love each other but find contentment in work, friends, and parenthood. Some may have given up the dream of romantic love or perhaps they never wanted a passionate relationship from the start. Clearly, disappointment in a marriage depends almost entirely on where you set your sights to begin with, and these are subject to change. One recent study of unhappy marriages found that many embattled but intact couples, five years later, were much happier and reported that their marriages were good. So it is important not to make critical decisions in the heat of your latest disappointments. Things may look very different if you wait a few months. You may change your mind altogether. From your children's perspective, the decision to divorce relates to how your unhappiness is affecting your ability to be a good parent. If you and your spouse enjoy being parents and together maintain a moral and protected life for your children, then I think you should consider staying together. I know many couples who have taken this path. They take great pride in their children and have decided, on balance, that it was a good way for them to go. Some have discreet extramarital affairs when they are away from home. Others settle for the limited love and sexuality in the marriage that they have. But if your unhappiness dominates your life, then you have to ask yourself probingly if one or both of you will be better parents after divorcing. Will your children be better off? These are hard questions, but again, only you can know your pain and satisfaction, how these play out now in the lives of your children, and how they are likely to play out in the future. The familiar question – "Is it better to stay married or not?" – doesn't capture the many gradations or nuances of marriage. Nor does it touch on the source of marital problems and the extent to which they can be tolerated within an intact marriage. On the other hand, if you feel humiliated, emotionally abused, mocked, and derided in your marriage, or just wake up miserable each day, you can use the divorce to take new pride in yourself. As an emancipated parent, you can become a far better role model and share with your children your new sense of freedom. You can take the opportunity to improve your life with knowledge that you didn't have when you were younger. You can become a new kind of adult who has had the courage to bring about change in your life and the lives of your children. A new world is ahead of you, and it's yours to define. Great article. It kind of give me an insight why I don't want to get out from my W. My older daughter is doing okay emotionally but my son is not adjusting himself. If I were to go now, my Son would probably be devastated and I don't think it is a good idea. |
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Post by becca on Jul 31, 2017 10:00:07 GMT -5
JMX Thanks for sharing this with all of us. It has to feel like one more piece of the puzzle has been found. It may not change the outcome at all but it gives you just another bit of insight into the dysfunction. I do agree with unmatched, that distance helps you see things more clearly. At least it did for me. But this is your journey. And you have to do what you feel is best for you and for your children. Stay strong, my friend.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 31, 2017 10:37:16 GMT -5
I am envious. You now know the answer to "why" and it is potentially fixable. Whether that is a path you want to pursue or not is up to you. Perhaps too much pain has stained the relationship to fix things. Perhaps one or both of you are not up to the heavy lifting task of repairing the damage. And make no mistake, it will take heavy lifting from BOTH of you.
I know the root "why" reason that my marriage was un-salvagable. I don't discuss it on the public forums since it is a private matter between my ex and I. But I also know that it can never be fixed because she wouldn't even acknowledge it as a problem, let alone work together on a solution. If your you and your husband both understand the root problem (and both want to work on it), then there is at least hope.
So it now seems that Sham's law applies to you...
"Everything in life is simple. First figure out what you want. Second, figure out how to get it. Third, do it."
The first part is always the hardest.
What do you want?
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So...
Jul 31, 2017 11:01:13 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Jul 31, 2017 11:01:13 GMT -5
Hi JMX. I dont mean to be intrusive or insensitive but I presumed you are open to some feedback. The statement below caught my attention. Especially the part about being annoyed because things arent good sexually. That seems like it could be exhausting over time. If I read that right, it almost seems like you are channeling your sexual frustration by being annoyed. Not judging but wanted to suggests that there might be other alternatives to channel your frustration that are not as mentally draining. For me one of the goals in my SM was to try to find a way not to be angry or resentful. To me, that seems like not a nice place to be. So I try to deliberatley channel energy into other endeavors. Not sure if its the same as your situatiom but thought I would make the observation. have remained optimistic about certain things and been extremely annoyed at other things. If we were good sexually, these things would not be an issue, but they are because we aren't. I have come full-circle - everything else is pretty great bar the sex NOW. |
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Post by JMX on Jul 31, 2017 11:04:28 GMT -5
Hi JMX. I dont mean to be intrusive or insensitive but I presumed you are open to some feedback. The statement below caught my attention. Especially the part about being annoyed because things arent good sexually. That seems like it could be exhausting over time. If I read that right, it almost seems like you are channeling your sexual frustration by being annoyed. Not judging but wanted to suggests that there might be other alternatives to channel your frustration that are not as mentally draining. For me one of the goals in my SM was to try to find a way not to be angry or resentful. To me, that seems like not a nice place to be. So I try to deliberatley channel energy into other endeavors. Not sure if its the same as your situatiom but thought I would make the observation. have remained optimistic about certain things and been extremely annoyed at other things. If we were good sexually, these things would not be an issue, but they are because we aren't. I have come full-circle - everything else is pretty great bar the sex NOW. I think what I meant to say is - and many say it here too - if the sex part was fine, those petty frustrations are just that - petty. But without the connection (both physical and emotional) simpler things like how much housework is done on his part (for example) do not become such big deals. The absence of the connection escalates minor stuff. |
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So...
Jul 31, 2017 11:54:50 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Jul 31, 2017 11:54:50 GMT -5
I get that petty frustrations can become escalated in the absence of connection. I live it daily with my wife. I guess what Im saying is that instead of focusing predominantly on the relationship or the faults in our SO, is it possible to focus internally on ourselves instead, by having hobbies, self improvememnt and the like, so that we channel fustrations elsewhere. In short, I guess the question I would ask is are we inside our heads too much? And if the answer is yes, are there things in our control (hobbies, distractions) we can do to get out of our heads. The idea being, that by doing so, the petty things stay petty and not turn into something bigger than they need to be. I believe that is counter productive from a sanity perspective I dont presuppose that it would be easy, but its worth trying for one's sanity. Hi JMX. I dont mean to be intrusive or insensitive but I presumed you are open to some feedback. The statement below caught my attention. Especially the part about being annoyed because things arent good sexually. That seems like it could be exhausting over time. If I read that right, it almost seems like you are channeling your sexual frustration by being annoyed. Not judging but wanted to suggests that there might be other alternatives to channel your frustration that are not as mentally draining. For me one of the goals in my SM was to try to find a way not to be angry or resentful. To me, that seems like not a nice place to be. So I try to deliberatley channel energy into other endeavors. Not sure if its the same as your situatiom but thought I would make the observation. I think what I meant to say is - and many say it here too - if the sex part was fine, those petty frustrations are just that - petty. But without the connection (both physical and emotional) simpler things like how much housework is done on his part (for example) do not become such big deals. The absence of the connection escalates minor stuff. |
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2017 12:21:41 GMT -5
Fwiw, I channeled my anger and sexual frustrations into hobbies. I made new friends and developed new talents. Eventually, my husband became superfluous. I was no longer angry. I was indifferent to him. We had no sex and no emotional glue to keep us together. I divorced fairly painlessly because we were no longer in a real marriage.
Our kids were grown and out of the house so unlike jmx, we no longer were bonded by child rearing.
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