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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 18, 2017 6:29:31 GMT -5
This article was really therapeutic for me.
As I dig deeper into the current situation I am beginning to get glimpses of where the problems are really.
I quote the article
"What men want most of all is respect, companionship and sex . . . For this is the essence of being "loved well" in a healthy way."
MY COMMENT
I feel like I am part of the "arrangement" - here is the children, here is the career, here are her assets and fancy cars, and over there, that is where the Husband goes.
Another quote from the article:
"If you supply these basics, your husband will do anything for you—slay the dragons, kill the beast, work three jobs, etc. Men will happily do this if, and only if, they are loved well in return. It is when men are not loved well that problems arise."
MY COMMENT:
There is the rub - I am simply not "loved well" it is per her rules and her paradigm. Cash prizes and optical appearances - do NOT count for shit. I will give up all of them if I leave this marriage.
"That’s because a husband’s number one goal is to please his wife. If he determines his wife cannot be pleased, that’s when the marriage is in trouble."
COMMENT:
So many things I did were never good enough. And I never make decisions about anything (where children go to school, where and when we go on vacation, who is coming for the holidays, etc.). I get "left over" hand me outs. My W totally dominates our relationship - she is even my boss at work.
I am pleased as long as I stay within the arrangement. I "rebel" by doing a lot of things on my own because the marriage is stifling - I cannot be myself without an extreme amount of self-consciousness.
This is all so subtle and hidden but there if I choose to look honestly at the situation.
Excellent article. I do not agree 100% with her but I got A LOT out of reading at and putting the light on my marriage.
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Post by cc on Feb 18, 2017 16:33:02 GMT -5
This is my mother in law to a T! She was so controlling that H had to put up major boundaries. She would tell me when to kiss him, when to freshen his drink, or that my parenting wasn't up to par. She hated that we were married. It was brutal and why we moved away asap. To hear H tell it he was never hugged, coddled, or anything like I do for our boys. H takes great pride in the fact that his boys have a soft and loving mother.
This greatly plays into our marriage. Before I knew it H had me fulfilling his mothers role. Like the day I realized it I closed the door and told him, I am not you mom, nor do I want to be. It has gotten worse through the years. I could write a book. He refuses to make decisions. He will ask me if he should make a nice cup of tea! Yes, please make the tea! PLEASE!
This article is telling the truth. I have loved my boys and allowed them to be free. I was never afforded the opportunity to raise a daughter all my own, but I would have loved to.
Reading this reminded me to step back some more...reword my responses.
I wish I had been more savvy in our younger years. No young wife is equipped to take that on.
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Post by cc on Feb 18, 2017 16:43:19 GMT -5
That article very accurately described my ex. Especially this part, which pretty much describes what our marriage looked like: "If my mother wasn’t the one who made the decision, the decision couldn’t possibly be good. Every so often she would appear to cede to my father’s wishes, but only if she happened to agree with him." Personal opinion alert (your mileage may vary): I am going to have to stick with my traditional roots here and say that I do believe in gender roles, but I don't think that gender roles mean the man always gets his way. My parents are both alphas, but they have made it work because my mom defers to my dad 99% of the time, and my dad never makes any decisions without taking my mom's opinions into account. Its a give and take ... the "dance" the author referred to. As a result, my mom gets her way more than half the time, even though she is not the "leader" in the marriage. This is because my dad's primary goal in decision making is to make my mom happy and safe. Even if a woman isn't an alpha, its possible for a man to be so much of a putz/jerk/loser that it forces her into an alpha role (as we have seen with many of the awesome women on this forum). As it is equally possible for a man to be unyielding (and this years winner of the Golden Douchebag award). If either partner is unyielding, then the dance dynamic is destroyed and the marriage falls apart. So to the specifics of this article... I agree that our society has done a very good job of convincing girls that having a career is more important than being a wife. Notice I did not say "mother" ... because motherhood is still lifted as a worthy goal, but not being a wife. Society tells girls that being someones wife is beneath them, and if they do get married, they need to be in charge because men are simpletons, bigots, and/or losers. Given that dynamic, its no wonder so many men these days do not want to get married. As for me, I would rather be alone than to be constantly wrong or constantly fighting with my wife for authority. Yes! I was always strong and decisive, but I longed to loved and tended. I wanted a strong male in my H's role. That Don Draper type of man, without the affairs. H was successful, put together, even wore the suits. He was smart and capable. But he had his mom at home who was the ALPHA queen. I didn't realize until our marriage and we stayed there between houses that she was so bad. When he was removed from her he looked to me to lead. To micromanage. I don't even know how to fix that 19 years in. I have tried. If I don't he wanders aimlessly. It is unreal. So bad, that I have to find him work when a company downsizes. Like he can't find a job. Come to find out his mother placed him in his work through a fellow church member. He has never had to be a man. Isn't that crazy? I worry that a therapist would run from us. I am very traditonal in my gender roles. I want to be the 50's housewife, but also do some work that is humanitarian to it's core, I love to serve. So, while I thought I was serving by fulfilling the roles he put me in, I was actually harming what I needed and what he needed. Can I send this as a letter to my baby self? Please? Save |
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Post by cc on Feb 18, 2017 16:45:13 GMT -5
Interesting enough read. FWIW I agree that 'most' partnerships work best the way she has described, with a full discussion of a situation, then one person making the call necessary and the other backing it up. But those roles have to be interchangeable too. Sometimes they lead, sometimes you do. Sometimes they follow, sometimes you do. I do NOT agree with her assertion that these roles are gender specific. Women can lead - or follow - just as well as men. Back in the day of my ILIASM deal, my missus was far from an alpha female. Indeed she was the antithesis. Indecisive, a constant plan changer, a procrastinater, a ditherer, an 'un-doer', a second guesser. It was a fucking nightmare trying to negotiate anything. Because as soon as one had negotiated a plan it started to get undermined and "un-negotiated". But, although not a good 'follower', she absolutely would NOT step up and take a turn at leading either. It was chaos. Things that yesterday were "agreed" were "un-agreed" today. I'd prefer to negotiate with an "alpha" type (either sex) any day of the week. At least you know exactly where they are coming from. Ms enna and I have a "leader / follower" sort of thing happening. But the roles are interchangeable (she's a good leader when it's her turn) and I reckon that about half the time (mebbe more) she tends to lead. And she has the score on the board, so when she suggests something, it is invariably well thought out and makes sense - and that makes it easy to follow. She is, by nature, more imaginative than me, so she tends to come up with more suggestions than me. (incidently, "alpha" people tend to give me the shits, and if at all possible I give them a wide berth) Give this some thought, you said your missus was far from being an Alpha . Someone who is indecisive, constantly changing planes (to their advantage or liking) a procrastinator, a ditherer, an un- doer, a second guesser, all sounds very manipulative. A controller, not someone who suggests things. A suggestion, ( to me) is saying" I would like this, I want this, what do you think, do you agree, let's compromise!" This gives you the chance to respectively say no,and explain why, with a loving, caring, dialogue. The article also says how much the man is willing to say yes, to agree, because he wants his wife happy. How much did you give in to all of that second guessing, procrastinating, un- doing, thinking you would keep her happy? Who, then is in control? You GIVE in, and she TAKES control. Yes you could have called her out on it every time. You would have to quote her, point out her mistakes, re-hash the entire subject, back and repeat everything you said, argue that she had agreed, and is now trying to change it. Remind her that she hasn't done what she agreed to, etc.... That's like raising a child all over again. That gets old quick. Without suggesting, compromising, there goes the trust. The article is about woman who are unable to love, by bringing too much Alpha, (dominance, and control) into loving their husband. Yes, it is like raising a child. It does get old. Save |
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Post by cc on Feb 18, 2017 16:48:12 GMT -5
I don't want to be the "Alpha" and have to do everything, control everything, etc. A partner who would put up with me being in charge all the time would be unattractive to me. Besides, being in charge all the time is too much damn work. OTOH, anybody who gets too bossy with me quickly finds out that I'm a natural at resisting authority. It's been the quest of a lifetime for me to meet a man who is just the right amount of assertive with me. This is exactly it! Save |
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Post by cc on Feb 18, 2017 16:52:44 GMT -5
Another quote from the article:
"If you supply these basics, your husband will do anything for you—slay the dragons, kill the beast, work three jobs, etc. Men will happily do this if, and only if, they are loved well in return. It is when men are not loved well that problems arise."
MY COMMENT:
There is the rub - I am simply not "loved well" it is per her rules and her paradigm. Cash prizes and optical appearances - do NOT count for shit. I will give up all of them if I leave this marriage.
This here...I have read books, asked for council, killed myself trying to love him well enough that he will slay the dragons....
I absolutely understand men are different. I am raising three! How do you love someone enough to make them feel like a man on fire, ready to take on the world? I think mine is broken or as I fear, I am not enough.
I absolutely hate seeing a man dejected and not allowed to be a man. It is painful.
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Post by Dan on Feb 20, 2017 11:12:02 GMT -5
I think the premise of the author treads dangerously close to making the case that the traditional "dominant-male/submissive-female" roles are "natural", "correct", and "most conducive to happiness of both genders". From the interview, she seems to equate "bossy" and maybe even "whiny/naggy" with "alpha". I'm not sure I'd 100% agree with that definition. For example, this article -- Ten Characteristics of the Alpha Woman -- states an alpha woman is NOT complain or whine, and furthermore is characterized that "she does not mind being wildly and uninhibitedly feminine and sexy." So maybe I agree that "being naggy is bad for a relationship", and I just balk at the author using the term "alpha" for this. I *kind of* agree with her simplification of "all a man needs"... but like any generalization that has a dollop of truth/utility, it can never cover all situations, all men, all relationships. The most generous thing I can say about the article/interview/premise is: if this view helps a woman (or a couple) consider ways to adapt behaviors to find/build happiness in her marriage... fine. But I think the work is much closer to "memoir/self-help genre" than it is to an accurate/scientific characterization of the psychological nature of all male/female relationships. (Not saying the author is making such claims; I guess I'm bristling at the "news-like" coverage in the interview, as if the opinions in the book are "fact".) |
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Post by Dan on Feb 20, 2017 11:20:18 GMT -5
I don't want to be the "Alpha" and have to do everything, control everything, etc. A partner who would put up with me being in charge all the time would be unattractive to me. Besides, being in charge all the time is too much damn work. OTOH, anybody who gets too bossy with me quickly finds out that I'm a natural at resisting authority. It's been the quest of a lifetime for me to meet a man who is just the right amount of assertive with me. Kat: I think I want the same thing as you do, from the male perspective. I want a woman who thinks for herself and is confident. Maybe even "alpha" (by this definition) or at least "alpha-leaning" in her career and outside the home. Inside the marriage/relationship, I'm looking for an equal, who knows how to give and take. I want her to express her true feelings; I want to not be judged when I express mine. I want to defer to her lead when she is more experienced in some household matter; I want her to defer to me when I'm more experienced... but in both cases with respect for the other's opinions. In the bedroom, I'm willing to take the romantic/sexual lead some-to-most of the time... but I don't want her to be passive. I want her to take the lead sometimes. Even more so I long for where the creative/romantic/sexual tension leads to something greater than the sum of its parts. (Indeed, that truly gets my creative juices flowing...) Can there be "confident" without "arrogant"? Can there be "appropriately assertive" without being "caustically bossy"? I think so. And I think some men AND some women are looking for that in a partner. And I also think: it is a bit tricky to find. |
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Post by WindSister on Feb 20, 2017 11:46:53 GMT -5
I think there was a lot of generalizations in the article and it can't quite be that simple. However it does make sense to me on some levels.
If I look at my husband and I, we are pretty traditional or "old fashioned" but in a good way - hes doesn't "stifle" or control and I don't "nag" or manipulate with tears -- I have staff that try that crap with me and it never works as I am on to the fact that crying can be a huge form of manipulation. ha. But, anyway, he is definitely the male energy and I am the female energy. This sounds bad when I say it out loud, but there are times I back down and trust him as my husband, put my own ideas aside and let him call the shots. Some women would absolutely go nuts with that idea and think that I am being abused or used or whatever. It's not like that, though. He does ask my input, we have long conversations about serious matters/decisions and we are both included. But in the end, if there are two separate ideas, unless I really felt strongly about something from my gut, I let him have the final say. Usually I do so by saying, "I trust you." If I do feel strongly about something and it's NOT just "my ego" vying to be the "victor" I will talk seriously and directly with him. He has come to my side those times. But not everything needs to be a battle. It's about direct and honest communication. Asking questions, not assuming and remembering we are on the same team. We have both been known to remind the other of that, in fact, if one forgets and starts getting mad... "hey, I am on your side..." That is a quick way to shut up that ego.
I love having a man for a husband. My ex was passive - just PASSIVE and indifferent. My husband's ex was an alpha but also extremely passive-aggressive (can that be a combination??). I have seen it first hand from her, most recently when trying to help plan a bridal shower for the girls. Phew. Even when it came to the soda choices, she asked my opinion, I gave it. I asked her opinion and got, "oh, it doesn't matter, whatever you get should be fine." So I got "whatever" and she was pissed because it was wrong. I got, "Oh, I would have added some 7up to that list, but whatever, we will make this work." I swear I heard stabbing music in the background as she said that. lol But on the flip of being "passive aggressive," she would also control him in many ways and he literally felt it their whole time together until he broke free from it and felt what it was to be himself. He said any opinion he had, she had the opposite and it was always a battle. That gets old and tiring AND it breaks the bond/trust/connection between a couple.
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Post by Dan on Feb 20, 2017 11:53:11 GMT -5
Here's a different take on the alpha woman, and what she needs to do to find love:  www.alphawomanthebook.com/From the web site: Frankly, this rings more true to me. One of the points of the book is that alpha and beta are not opposite ends of one spectrum, but rather independent axes. If you'd like to take her quiz to see "how alpha" and "how beta" you are, you find find it here: The Alpha/Beta Personality Quiz. (BTW: I came out "mid-alpha/mid-beta"... color coded "lime green" on her nine-category result table. Sounds about right.) |
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Post by WindSister on Feb 20, 2017 11:55:12 GMT -5
I don't want to be the "Alpha" and have to do everything, control everything, etc. A partner who would put up with me being in charge all the time would be unattractive to me. Besides, being in charge all the time is too much damn work. OTOH, anybody who gets too bossy with me quickly finds out that I'm a natural at resisting authority. It's been the quest of a lifetime for me to meet a man who is just the right amount of assertive with me. Kat: I think I want the same thing as you do, from the male perspective. I want a woman who thinks for herself and is confident. Maybe even "alpha" (by this definition) or at least "alpha-leaning" in her career and outside the home. Inside the marriage/relationship, I'm looking for an equal, who knows how to give and take. I want her to express her true feelings; I want to not be judged when I express mine. I want to defer to her lead when she is more experienced in some household matter; I want her to defer to me when I'm more experienced... but in both cases with respect for the other's opinions. In the bedroom, I'm willing to take the romantic/sexual lead some-to-most of the time... but I don't want her to be passive. I want her to take the lead sometimes. Even more so I long for where the creative/romantic/sexual tension leads to something greater than the sum of its parts. (Indeed, that truly gets my creative juices flowing...) Can there be "confident" without "arrogant"? Can there be "appropriately assertive" without being "caustically bossy"? I think so. And I think some men AND some women are looking for that in a partner. And I also think: it is a bit tricky to find. Ebb and flow... that is more accurate to me than "pure male energy" and "pure female energy." I agree with you guys on that! That is why I thought the article was too generalized, perhaps. It's not SO hard to find. Insightful men/women are out there. (self-aware) It's about being aware of our own energy. If someone asks what kind of energy they bring to the relationship, they are someone worth knowing. I caught that from my husband immediately when he stated he went to counseling himself after his divorce (his ex wouldn't even attempt counseling with him when he asked her). Well, that alone doesn't guarantee anything, but I would pass up on someone like his wife, who jumped from one man to the next without even questioning why her divorce ended aside from pointing the finger at her ex. |
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Post by bballgirl on Feb 20, 2017 12:08:34 GMT -5
Dan Very cool quiz. I was 44% Mid Alpha and 44% Mid Beta with Lime Green for my color. The real mystery is what that other 12% is! Thanks for sharing that!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 12:16:12 GMT -5
I'm Pink:
14% Low Alpha
54% High Beta
At least there are 2 groups that are more "Beta" and wimpier than I am......
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Post by Dan on Feb 20, 2017 12:25:07 GMT -5
I'm Pink: 14% Low Alpha 54% High Beta At least there are 2 groups that are more "Beta" and wimpier than I am...... First of all, scratch "wimpier" from that assessment! One of Rhodes's point is that we should take the VALUE JUDGEMENT off these terms. Maybe society admires/rewards/honors/revers that alpha male... but that doesn't make him "ideal" for a partnering, any more than being alpha female does or doesn't. (Moment of self reflection... I think I get extra alpha points for speaking about Rhodes's book as if I'm some sort of expert after only spending five minutes on the web site. Then again, I probably get extra beta points for the moment of self reflection!) |
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Post by Dan on Feb 20, 2017 12:32:00 GMT -5
Kat: I think I want the same thing as you do, from the male perspective. ... Can there be "confident" without "arrogant"? Can there be "appropriately assertive" without being "caustically bossy"? I think so. And I think some men AND some women are looking for that in a partner. And I also think: it is a bit tricky to find. It's not SO hard to find. Insightful men/women are out there. (self-aware) It's about being aware of our own energy. Well.... I agree that agreeable/kind/compatible/reasonable/self-aware people are NOT so hard to find. I know lots of women (and men) in that category. But if one is looking for romance/LTR, the trick is finding someone who is that PLUS: sufficiently in the "same place" in life; with baggage that is not too burdensome for you; and -- of course -- with mutual attraction (physically, emotionally, intellectually). Said by Robin on How I Met Your Mother: "If you have chemistry, you only need one other thing: timing. But timing's a bitch!" lifestyle.allwomenstalk.com/lessons-to-learn-from-barney-and-robin/4www.scienceofrelationships.com/home/2013/5/23/chemistry-timing-relationship-success.html |
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