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Post by unmatched on Jan 31, 2017 19:02:52 GMT -5
THOUGHT EXPERIMENT:
Hi, I have been married for 15 years and our marriage is still pretty good. We love each other dearly, work well together, we both want similar things in life, we have a nice house, good kids, still have a good sex life etc. etc. The only thing is he won't talk to me. He can do 'Hi honey, how was your day?' or have a conversation about what colour to paint the living room, but he won't ever talk about his feelings and has no real interest in me or my life.
When we first met it was different - we would go on dates and talk for hours about life, the universe, our hopes/fears/dreams etc. But as soon as we got married all that just switched off and he lost interest. I know talking isn't everything - we still love each other and treat each other well and we have great sex. But lately I don't feel so much like having sex with him. I know that is superficial, but I can't help it. When he says 'how was your day?' and has no interest in actually listening to the answer I just back off and go cold. But then he feels like I am withdrawing from the relationship, and he is right - I am! I feel so selfish. I have thought about talking more to other people, even raised it with him, but we are both scared that I might end up getting emotionally involved.
Argggh! I just feel stuck and don't know what to do. Anyway, thank you for listening.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 31, 2017 21:32:32 GMT -5
It's a SM inside out. How we say everything's great bar the sex. She's saying everything's great bar the communication. Nonetheless something major is lacking in the relationship which leads to detachment which leads to a lack of sex. Sex is the barometer of a relationship. Like the advice we give - she needs to lay her cards on the table because he is not present in their relationship.
Here's the thing that I've learned since I've been out of my SM. It's not the sex that most people want here on the forum it's the connection in the relationship and sex is a part of that.
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Post by obobfla on Jan 31, 2017 21:59:32 GMT -5
I totally believe that couple who have great sex are those that talk to each other. My wife is a terrible communicator, so we have no sex.
For those who don't know, my wife is thoughtless. Not mean, but she doesn't think about what other people want or need. It just isn't apparent to her. I was up in the middle of the night, half-asleep and headed for the bathroom. She had to tell me the cat's flea collar is too tight (it wasn't). She will interrupt me just to ask if a bill got paid. She barges in on my 14-year-old son, even though I constantly remind her that no parent, especially one of the opposite sex, should barge into a teenager's room. She doesn't watch TV, read, listen to music, or do any sort of small talk except for her little world.
I recently ran into a woman who I went to high school with. We went out for coffee. Nothing sexual, but just friends. But I was able to have a fun adult conversation with someone! I don't need sex as much as I need a woman who interests me and keeps me interested. It was not the sex with my AP as the fact that she just found me attractive. That meant a lot!
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Post by wewbwb on Jan 31, 2017 22:58:16 GMT -5
Here's the thing that I've learned since I've been out of my SM. It's not the sex that most people want here on the forum it's the connection in the relationship and sex is a part of that. It's become apparent to me. A large part of what I've found missing is a "partner". It's a lot more than just sex that's missing in my marriage. It may not be the case in every marriage, but in mine it is.
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Post by rejected101 on Feb 1, 2017 1:33:30 GMT -5
The conversation analogy is perfect. Sex after all is a conversation is it not? A conversation between 2 bodies. If you talk to your partner and they refuse to converse back or give simple one word answers it's the equivalent of starfish sex. It's not hard to talk back and try to have a conversation and it's a perfectly reasonable expectation for someone to have. Funnily enough I found the exact same analogy on another forum. Aven! When someone was trying to explain how turning off sex would feel to a sexual in a relationship setting, the turning off conversation comparison was used. It's perfect in my opinion. How would it feel to my wife if all of a sudden without any warning, rhyme or reason I suddenly had no interest in talking to my wife? I would imagine she would feel very lonely!
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Post by eternaloptimism on Feb 1, 2017 1:59:58 GMT -5
I like the conversation analogy.
To me, adults in a sex drought are a bit like kids who aren't allowed to play. Everyone would agree kids need to play, why can't they see adults need playtime too?
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Post by baza on Feb 1, 2017 2:48:40 GMT -5
In this THOUGHT EXPERIMENT they are still apparently having great sex. (although how the hell you can have 'great sex' in a relationship with someone you can't talk to escapes me) If the basic communication issue is now starting to break down, you can bet that the sex is starting to drop off too. Same as it would be if one of them developed an addiction now, or started to sabotage the financial side of the deal, or engaged in some other dealbreaker behaviour. Down the gurgler goes the rooting, giving a huge symptom / signal that all is not fundamentally sound in the situation. And the same old 3 choices come in to play.
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Post by rejected101 on Feb 1, 2017 2:53:56 GMT -5
The conversation analogy is perfect. Sex after all is a conversation is it not? A conversation between 2 bodies. If you talk to your partner and they refuse to converse back or give simple one word answers it's the equivalent of starfish sex. It's not hard to talk back and try to have a conversation and it's a perfectly reasonable expectation for someone to have. Funnily enough I found the exact same analogy on another forum. Aven! When someone was trying to explain how turning off sex would feel to a sexual in a relationship setting, the turning off conversation comparison was used. It's perfect in my opinion. How would it feel to my wife if all of a sudden without any warning, rhyme or reason I suddenly had no interest in talking to my wife? I would imagine she would feel very lonely! The worst thing about this is though, when you're married, your right to have a conversation with someone else is lost.
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Post by tamara68 on Feb 1, 2017 5:40:36 GMT -5
I think that whatever problem occurs in a marriage, it is essential that BOTH partners recognize it as a problem and that both are willing to do their share. in most or all of our sexless marriages the problem has been there too long and has a firm and unmoveable position in the unhealthy relation. Also in most of our marriages our partners don't have a problem with the situation, or don't see a problem, or see only a problem in the behavior of us 'refused'. What our 'refusers' essentially do is refusing to do their share and refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem. I think that is more important than refusing sex. Or refusing communication in the example.
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 1, 2017 7:11:13 GMT -5
Thanks for everyone's answers so far, they are spot on!
This is a fine example of how DARVO carries through to other parts of the relationship.
"Many times when he says, "how was your day?", and has no interest in actually listening to the answer, I just back off and go cold." Perhaps this is happening because the controlling spouse commits DARVO with every conversation. In this example he opens the door for the sharing/caring/dreams/communication, like they used to have. She instead only talks about the kids,or only want's to complain, or talk about what's wrong with everyone else. Her response to his words are, "ugh-hugh" or silence, or speaks right over them. She was the one who switched off the "two way conversations" that used to be there in the beginning of the marriage, "the bait and switch" but she blames him for "loosing interest."
By reading between the lines you can see the "manipulative control" in the relationship. She is satisfied with the house, who does the chores, spending of money,hobbies, other relationships, her job, a husband, the kids, Her one sided, points of view, even her idea of a good sex life, but he won't talk to me?
Imagine if he came to the table after asking her "how was your day", and then said, "I've never liked this house, your whole life is nothing but your job,I'm a husband who is nothing but a paycheck and a maid, you don't contribute squat around here, you put the kids before everything, you spoil them rotten, you hide, and spend to much money,you disapprove of all my friends, you think once a year is a good sex life, you over-ride, and shoot down any of my attempts to share my true thoughts with you, my way of doing things is always wrong, you are the one who detached from me years ago,and I hardly noticed since you are in such control of everything to begin with, it's just more manipulation, your favorite word is "NO". So yea, of course we don't talk any more!!"
She is scared to admit that she is a controller. She will remain in control, by SAYING NOTHING.(because saying nothing IS saying something) completely avoiding the situation, reversing it, denying that any of the blame is hers, making her the victim, and him the offender.
All this holds true for either gender. Husbands (he) do this to wives (she) as well.
Let me end by saying, this sounds like the typical, one sided, conversation, that a refuser would tell others, about their failing marriage.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Feb 1, 2017 9:22:32 GMT -5
Thanks for everyone's answers so far, they are spot on! This is a fine example of how DARVO carries through to other parts of the relationship. "Many times when he says, "how was your day?", and has no interest in actually listening to the answer, I just back off and go cold. Perhaps this is happening because the controlling spouse commits DARVO with every conversation. In this example he opens the door for the sharing/caring/dreams/communication, like they used to have. She instead only talks about the kids,or only want's to complain, or talk about what's wrong with everyone else. She was the one who switched off the "two way conversations" that used to be there in the beginning of the marriage, "the bait and switch" but she blames him for "loosing interest." By reading between the lines you can see the "manipulative control" in the relationship. She is satisfied with the house, her job, a husband, the kids, Her one sided, points of view, even her idea of a good sex life, but he won't talk to me? Imagine if he came to the table after asking her "how was your day", and then said, "I've never liked this house, your whole life is nothing but your job,I'm a husband who is nothing but a paycheck and a maid, you don't contribute squat around here, you put the kids before everything, you spoil them rotten, you think once a year is a good sex life, you over-ride, and shoot down any of my attempts to share my true thoughts with you, my way of doing things is always wrong, you are the one who detached from me years ago,and I hardly noticed since you are in such control of everything to begin with, it's just more manipulation, your favorite word is "NO". So yea, of course we don't talk any more. She is scared to admit that she is a controller. She will remain in control, by SAYING NOTHING.(because saying nothing IS saying something) completely avoiding the situation, reversing it, denying that any of the blame is hers, making her the victim, and him the offender. All this holds true for either gender. Husbands (he) do this to wives (she) as well. Let me end by saying, this sounds like the typical, one sided, conversation, that a refuser would tell others, about their failing marriage. Whoa! I am living this one.
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Post by Dan on Feb 1, 2017 11:43:20 GMT -5
OK, an interesting analogy as far as thought experiments go. Maybe it may inspire some members to think "you know, I would DEFINITELY leave that relationship... and sex matters as much as conversation, so maybe I should consider leaving my SM, too."
So, props for that.
But here's where it misses the mark for me. Let me change it to something true in my marriage: I love games. Card games, board games, word games. This has been not only been a lifelong pastime of mine, but a central part of my family life growing up and one of the main ways I socialized in college. My wife doesn't care about games, neither the intellectual stimulation nor the socializing that comes with it. Sigh. I have a "gameless marriage".
The good news is: I can get my "game itch" scratched just fine outside my marriage.. and it is socially acceptable. I can play bridge or go to game nights at a local Meetup. I can got to Magic the Gathering nights with my kids. I can invite friends over for "game nights" at my house. All of this is socially acceptable. And even acceptable for my wife!
However, dealing with my SM, it is NOT socially acceptable for me to do that with sex. THERE'S THE RUB.
Back to the "he's a lousy conversationalist"... well, I agree that ZERO communication with ones spouse sounds bad. But it IS socially acceptable to get your talky-talk in from your girlfriends/buddies, workmates, family members, neighbors, etc. In that sense, the hypothetical "conversationless marriage" has a BETTER chance of allowing a someone to stay in the marriage if they so choose.
Not saying they should; saying there ARE socially acceptable alternatives.
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Post by bballgirl on Feb 1, 2017 12:32:30 GMT -5
OK, an interesting analogy as far as thought experiments go. Maybe it may inspire some members to think "you know, I would DEFINITELY leave that relationship... and sex matters as much as conversation, so maybe I should consider leaving my SM, too." So, props for that. But here's where it misses the mark for me. Let me change it to something true in my marriage: I love games. Card games, board games, word games. This has been not only been a lifelong pastime of mine, but a central part of my family life growing up and one of the main ways I socialized in college. My wife doesn't care about games, neither the intellectual stimulation nor the socializing that comes with it. Sigh. I have a "gameless marriage". The good news is: I can get my "game itch" scratched just fine outside my marriage.. and it is socially acceptable. I can play bridge or go to game nights at a local Meetup. I can got to Magic the Gathering nights with my kids. I can invite friends over for "game nights" at my house. All of this is socially acceptable. And even acceptable for my wife! However, dealing with my SM, it is NOT socially acceptable for me to do that with sex. THERE'S THE RUB. Back to the "he's a lousy conversationalist"... well, I agree that ZERO communication with ones spouse sounds bad. But it IS socially acceptable to get your talky-talk in from your girlfriends/buddies, workmates, family members, neighbors, etc. In that sense, the hypothetical "conversationless marriage" has a BETTER chance of allowing a someone to stay in the marriage if they so choose. Not saying they should; saying there ARE socially acceptable alternatives. With much respect I'm questioning your analogy. Conversation - Communication and Sex - Connection are foundations and fundamental in a marriage. Board games are an interest and that is fair in a relationship to have different interests and to do those interests with different people.
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Post by rejected101 on Feb 1, 2017 14:27:55 GMT -5
OK, an interesting analogy as far as thought experiments go. Maybe it may inspire some members to think "you know, I would DEFINITELY leave that relationship... and sex matters as much as conversation, so maybe I should consider leaving my SM, too." So, props for that. But here's where it misses the mark for me. Let me change it to something true in my marriage: I love games. Card games, board games, word games. This has been not only been a lifelong pastime of mine, but a central part of my family life growing up and one of the main ways I socialized in college. My wife doesn't care about games, neither the intellectual stimulation nor the socializing that comes with it. Sigh. I have a "gameless marriage". The good news is: I can get my "game itch" scratched just fine outside my marriage.. and it is socially acceptable. I can play bridge or go to game nights at a local Meetup. I can got to Magic the Gathering nights with my kids. I can invite friends over for "game nights" at my house. All of this is socially acceptable. And even acceptable for my wife! However, dealing with my SM, it is NOT socially acceptable for me to do that with sex. THERE'S THE RUB. Back to the "he's a lousy conversationalist"... well, I agree that ZERO communication with ones spouse sounds bad. But it IS socially acceptable to get your talky-talk in from your girlfriends/buddies, workmates, family members, neighbors, etc. In that sense, the hypothetical "conversationless marriage" has a BETTER chance of allowing a someone to stay in the marriage if they so choose. Not saying they should; saying there ARE socially acceptable alternatives. With much respect I'm questioning your analogy. Conversation - Communication and Sex - Connection are foundations and fundamental in a marriage. Board games are an interest and that is fair in a relationship to have different interests and to do those interests with different people. Agreed. The analogy whilst good is somewhat flawed by virtue of the fact that sex is reasonably assumed when entering a relationship. Playing cards or other games is never a reasonable assumption. If someone genuinely doesn't like sex from the outset of a marriage they should be honest and give their partner the opportunity to make an informed decision as to whether they want to continue. Unfortunately what happens is people also assume the right to decline sex as in today's society we are taught from a very early age that you must respect yourself by participating in sex only if you fancy it. Whilst I agree with this in part it has been taken to an extreme in many relationships and what ends up happening is the lower libido person will end up inadvertently using their partner as a sexual partner when and only when they fancy a fuck. It is not unreasonable to ask for more in my opinion. I know for a fact that if I was with a woman who's libido was significantly higher then mine, I would never ever assume the right to limit sex to when I want it. It smacks of selfishness to me.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 1, 2017 14:45:54 GMT -5
With much respect I'm questioning your analogy. Conversation - Communication and Sex - Connection are foundations and fundamental in a marriage. Board games are an interest and that is fair in a relationship to have different interests and to do those interests with different people. Agreed. The analogy whilst good is somewhat floored by virtue of the fact that sex is reasonably assumed when entering a relationship. Playing cards or other games is never a reasonable assumption. If someone genuinely doesn't like sex from the outset of a marriage they should be honest and give their partner the opportunity to make an informed decision as to whether they want to continue. Unfortunately what happens is people also assume the right to decline sex as in today's society we are taught from a very early age that you must respect yourself by participating in sex only if you fancy it. Whilst I agree with this in part it has been taken to an extreme in many relationships and what ends up happening is the lower libido person will end up inadvertently using their partner as a sexual partner when and only when they fancy a fuck. It is not unreasonable to ask for more in my opinion. I know for a fact that if I was with a woman who's libido was significantly higher then mine, I would never ever assume the right to limit sex to when I want it. It smacks of selfishness to me. "I know for a fact that if I was with a woman who's libido was significantly higher then mine, I would never ever assume the right to limit sex to when I want it. It smacks of selfishness to me." Fair enough. But "sexual desire" requires emotion. It's a feeling. If you and your LL partner are content with the idea that your partner was engaging with you, say 5 times out of 10, in the attempt to avoid selfishness, then great. That's an admirable relationship.
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