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Post by beachguy on Jan 8, 2017 19:29:15 GMT -5
Big words. You should probably bother to learn what they mean before using them. (now THAT was an 'ad hominem' attack). Yes, I have a very different take on the subject. The fact that you can't accept that and put it down to "cultural indoctrination" says more about you than about me. Plonk. In the spirit of civility I will not otherwise respond to your second ad hominem attack on me. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 8, 2017 20:23:31 GMT -5
"It's not that she can't, it's that she won't." Won't what? Feel the same desire as you? She won't pretend to have a sexual urge? That statement implies your wife has the ability to have a sexual urge, but she refuses to, simply out of spite. Why would she do that? Do you think she actually has a much higher desire, but she refuses to express it? In other words, "She can.....But she won't." Can what? Can have sex as much as you would prefer? Of course. Anyone "can" have sex. Is that what you want? Or do you want her to WANT to have sex? Because there's a huge difference. She can't or won't. Either way. Would it resolve your feelings of undesirability if she engaged in sexual relations with you purely out of selflessness? What if she did, because she can, only to please you? Would you be content knowing that it wasn't fueled by actual sexual desire? Seems like you might feel rejected because you're feeling she doesn't "desire" you. But you say your marriage is not bad, other than the lack of sex. Maybe she does desire you, just not in the way you want to be desired. Maybe your definition of desire is just different than hers. The problem is, a person can't demand another person to sexually desire them. You might have to decide if her deficit is non-negotiable. The bottom line is, if your wife truly "can, but won't," do something out of vindictiveness, control or spite, then why on earth would you stay with her? This is why I like this site! I'm getting a different slant on things that sometimes differs from what my own somewhat bitter (at times) mind thinks of. In other words thanks. However, often I think like this for a very simple reason. There are days/nights where I would be perfectly happy not to have sex and I'm not particularly 'in the mood'. If my wife initiated I would not turn her away because it's not difficult, it's not particularly time consuming, it's not hugely tiring, there are no cost implications, no baby sitter is required and i wouldn't feel that it's particularly fair to dismiss her advance just because I was happy not to. There is a HUGE difference between I really am not in the mood to do this vs I hadn't given it a second thought because I'm happy without this tonight. Just because someone is happy without sex tonight does NOT necessarily mean that they would be unhappy with sex tonight. I suspect (I don't know for a fact) that my wife is at the 'I'm perfectly happy not to tonight' phase more often than the 'I really don't want to do this' phase which is why it causes frustration and upset. I find it hugely odd that me and a lot of people I know for that fact went from a once a month sexual encounter to a 3,4 even 5 times a week encounter the second we agreed to have conception sex. Isn't it funny that 3 times a week is so easy for this period but 3 times a month during general life is like asking for the earth to be moved for you? It's not that she does it out of spite, it's more like she doesn't need to and therefore doesn't bother! I believe it's complacency! I read an article written by a sex therapist once that said a runner will often not be in the mood to go out again for yet another run and forcing yourself to put on those running trainers is sometimes a really big battle of will. But when they get out there they enjoy their run and they feel much better for having gone. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is not possible for her but I judge it based on what I would be like with her and I know I wouldn't reject simply because I wasn't already feeling horny. You describe your wife as complacent, quiet often. There's a big difference in being submissive and being complacent. We are all submissive to many things, and each other, all the time in our daily lives. Complacent is a form of control. Picture a jacked knifed rig blocking the interstate. Who is controlling the situation by being complacent? Especially in intimacy and sex. One is dominate and the other is submissive. There has to be a reached agreement in order for there to be pleasure for both. If the submissive partner refuses to submit, the controlling partner has no power. The power in a D/s relationship sits with the submissive. Without the cooperation, and willingness of the submitter there is no D/S. Think of the person in the office who goes along to get along. That's submission. Compared to the person who is complacent, they will not learn anything new, they will not leave their desk, their paper work does not get to them, they may produce something, but it doesn't ever leave their desk. Their complacency now begins to affect the whole chain of work in the office, before long their complacency has shut down the whole office, they are in control. Time to fire that employee. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 9, 2017 11:25:17 GMT -5
"It's not that she can't, it's that she won't." Won't what? Feel the same desire as you? She won't pretend to have a sexual urge? That statement implies your wife has the ability to have a sexual urge, but she refuses to, simply out of spite. Why would she do that? Do you think she actually has a much higher desire, but she refuses to express it? In other words, "She can.....But she won't." Can what? Can have sex as much as you would prefer? Of course. Anyone "can" have sex. Is that what you want? Or do you want her to WANT to have sex? Because there's a huge difference. She can't or won't. Either way. Would it resolve your feelings of undesirability if she engaged in sexual relations with you purely out of selflessness? What if she did, because she can, only to please you? Would you be content knowing that it wasn't fueled by actual sexual desire? Seems like you might feel rejected because you're feeling she doesn't "desire" you. But you say your marriage is not bad, other than the lack of sex. Maybe she does desire you, just not in the way you want to be desired. Maybe your definition of desire is just different than hers. The problem is, a person can't demand another person to sexually desire them. You might have to decide if her deficit is non-negotiable. The bottom line is, if your wife truly "can, but won't," do something out of vindictiveness, control or spite, then why on earth would you stay with her? This is why I like this site! I'm getting a different slant on things that sometimes differs from what my own somewhat bitter (at times) mind thinks of. In other words thanks. However, often I think like this for a very simple reason. There are days/nights where I would be perfectly happy not to have sex and I'm not particularly 'in the mood'. If my wife initiated I would not turn her away because it's not difficult, it's not particularly time consuming, it's not hugely tiring, there are no cost implications, no baby sitter is required and i wouldn't feel that it's particularly fair to dismiss her advance just because I was happy not to. There is a HUGE difference between I really am not in the mood to do this vs I hadn't given it a second thought because I'm happy without this tonight. Just because someone is happy without sex tonight does NOT necessarily mean that they would be unhappy with sex tonight. I suspect (I don't know for a fact) that my wife is at the 'I'm perfectly happy not to tonight' phase more often than the 'I really don't want to do this' phase which is why it causes frustration and upset. I find it hugely odd that me and a lot of people I know for that fact went from a once a month sexual encounter to a 3,4 even 5 times a week encounter the second we agreed to have conception sex. Isn't it funny that 3 times a week is so easy for this period but 3 times a month during general life is like asking for the earth to be moved for you? It's not that she does it out of spite, it's more like she doesn't need to and therefore doesn't bother! I believe it's complacency! I read an article written by a sex therapist once that said a runner will often not be in the mood to go out again for yet another run and forcing yourself to put on those running trainers is sometimes a really big battle of will. But when they get out there they enjoy their run and they feel much better for having gone. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is not possible for her but I judge it based on what I would be like with her and I know I wouldn't reject simply because I wasn't already feeling horny. As to your first point -- days/nights where I would be perfectly happy not to have sex and I'm not in the mood but if my wife initiated I would not turn her away -- Having sex when a person is LL is not simply a matter of, well I'm not really feelin' it right now, but my partner is, so I should just do it. Your scenario involves two persons (presumably) that normally WANT to have sex, but maybe just aren't in the mood, tired, stressed -- fill in the blank. So of course, if you love a person, even if having sex just wasn't even on your radar at a particular time, but all of a sudden your partner is feeling in the mood, of course you wouldn't deny. But that's because YOU NORMALLY HAVE A SEX DRIVE. For me, and perhaps this is not the situation with your wife, but I don't deny simply because I don't feel horny at that particular moment. I don't ever feel a sexual urge. In my case, it's not that I'm just not putting in the effort or the energy or being "complacent". I can't really comment on someone who would go from five times a week while trying to conceive, then back to once a month afterwards. Except that maybe -- maybe they still didn't really enjoy it but wanted a child so badly that they did it. I'm not saying this is ethical or moral or loving. I'm only saying, maybe they do it even though they don't want to, just to conceive. So yeah, they PHYSICALLY CAN have sex, (such as your wife, perhaps) but really, If they don't willingly WANT to, why would YOU want them to? Just seems like you WANT your wife to WANT to have sex, either initially, on her own, OR even just because YOU want to, and she loves you, so she should do it even if she's not in the mood, she's tired, whatever the excuse is. I always find the sex to ----fill in the blank, analogies quite funny. In my opinion, there are no reasonable analogies. Do you really want to have sex with someone who is dreading it, like they dread to jog? Yeah, no one wants to run. I run. I don't like it. I do it, to stay in shape. Doesn't make me happy. I hate it the entire time I'm doing it. Never get a runner's high. Yes, it's a battle of will. EVERY damn time. I just want to punch running in its stupid face. Is that how your partner should feel about making love to you? Also, in my opinion, you can't equate having sex with any other chore, job, exercise, what ever. Because sex is such a personal, intimate thing. You either feel the urge or you don't. So yeah, you can say no one likes to do the dishes, but you do them. So why can't you just "do sex" even though you don't want to do it. Well, it's because being intimate is exactly that. It's intimate. A person who is truly LL, can't simply conjure up some sexual urge where it doesn't exist. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 9, 2017 12:46:09 GMT -5
This is why I like this site! I'm getting a different slant on things that sometimes differs from what my own somewhat bitter (at times) mind thinks of. In other words thanks. However, often I think like this for a very simple reason. There are days/nights where I would be perfectly happy not to have sex and I'm not particularly 'in the mood'. If my wife initiated I would not turn her away because it's not difficult, it's not particularly time consuming, it's not hugely tiring, there are no cost implications, no baby sitter is required and i wouldn't feel that it's particularly fair to dismiss her advance just because I was happy not to. There is a HUGE difference between I really am not in the mood to do this vs I hadn't given it a second thought because I'm happy without this tonight. Just because someone is happy without sex tonight does NOT necessarily mean that they would be unhappy with sex tonight. I suspect (I don't know for a fact) that my wife is at the 'I'm perfectly happy not to tonight' phase more often than the 'I really don't want to do this' phase which is why it causes frustration and upset. I find it hugely odd that me and a lot of people I know for that fact went from a once a month sexual encounter to a 3,4 even 5 times a week encounter the second we agreed to have conception sex. Isn't it funny that 3 times a week is so easy for this period but 3 times a month during general life is like asking for the earth to be moved for you? It's not that she does it out of spite, it's more like she doesn't need to and therefore doesn't bother! I believe it's complacency! I read an article written by a sex therapist once that said a runner will often not be in the mood to go out again for yet another run and forcing yourself to put on those running trainers is sometimes a really big battle of will. But when they get out there they enjoy their run and they feel much better for having gone. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is not possible for her but I judge it based on what I would be like with her and I know I wouldn't reject simply because I wasn't already feeling horny. As to your first point -- days/nights where I would be perfectly happy not to have sex and I'm not in the mood but if my wife initiated I would not turn her away -- Having sex when a person is LL is not simply a matter of, well I'm not really feelin' it right now, but my partner is, so I should just do it. Your scenario involves two persons (presumably) that normally WANT to have sex, but maybe just aren't in the mood, tired, stressed -- fill in the blank. So of course, if you love a person, even if having sex just wasn't even on your radar at a particular time, but all of a sudden your partner is feeling in the mood, of course you wouldn't deny. But that's because YOU NORMALLY HAVE A SEX DRIVE. For me, and perhaps this is not the situation with your wife, but I don't deny simply because I don't feel horny at that particular moment. I don't ever feel a sexual urge. In my case, it's not that I'm just not putting in the effort or the energy or being "complacent". I can't really comment on someone who would go from five times a week while trying to conceive, then back to once a month afterwards. Except that maybe -- maybe they still didn't really enjoy it but wanted a child so badly that they did it. I'm not saying this is ethical or moral or loving. I'm only saying, maybe they do it even though they don't want to, just to conceive. So yeah, they PHYSICALLY CAN have sex, (such as your wife, perhaps) but really, If they don't willingly WANT to, why would YOU want them to? Just seems like you WANT your wife to WANT to have sex, either initially, on her own, OR even just because YOU want to, and she loves you, so she should do it even if she's not in the mood, she's tired, whatever the excuse is. I always find the sex to ----fill in the blank, analogies quite funny. In my opinion, there are no reasonable analogies. Do you really want to have sex with someone who is dreading it, like they dread to jog? Yeah, no one wants to run. I run. I don't like it. I do it, to stay in shape. Doesn't make me happy. I hate it the entire time I'm doing it. Never get a runner's high. Yes, it's a battle of will. EVERY damn time. I just want to punch running in its stupid face. Is that how your partner should feel about making love to you? Also, in my opinion, you can't equate having sex with any other chore, job, exercise, what ever. Because sex is such a personal, intimate thing. You either feel the urge or you don't. So yeah, you can say no one likes to do the dishes, but you do them. So why can't you just "do sex" even though you don't want to do it. Well, it's because being intimate is exactly that. It's intimate. A person who is truly LL, can't simply conjure up some sexual urge where it doesn't exist. First, i can't say enough that I really appreciate your point of view and your willingness to express it here. I suspect that my wife's perspective is similar - that she just does not like sex, and that she cannot want to have sex. I don't think she wants to want to either, but that is another matter perhaps. I find her LL to be an utter turn off to me, and yes, i do wish that she would want to have sex with me, and more than that, i wish she would want to want to. However, i accept that this is the way she is and that this will never change. She doesn't want to change and that is fine. I still love her, care about her, and feel a string sense of responsibility for her. I just don't know what to do about the frustration and the resentment that I have sacrificed what i feel is a large part of myself. Other than writing and posting here ... You already seem to be a bit frustrated yourself, and I don't want to add to this, but i do ask you: what do you see as a reasonable solution to this issue, ie, a clash in libidos among partners and the frustration that is felt by and expressed by the refused partner? I am sure that my wife just wishes I would shut up and forget about sex, but honestly i cannot. I say this not making any assumptions, but from experience, and i cannot simply divorce her if I wanted to - it would crush her. From your perspective, how should i manage what has now created a crushing sense of personal loss of my identity? I am not going anywhere, so i suppose i need to figure out how to live with it ... |
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