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Post by baza on Aug 13, 2016 19:19:07 GMT -5
Well at this stage, it doesn't look like a "talk" at all.
This now looks like a "statement of intent".
Not a conversation, not a negotiation, not a debate nor a discourse.
A simple statement of intent.
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But beware the big trap.
"If" you deliver the statement of intent and have your legal advice / exit strategy etc in do-able shape, and the resolve to see it through, then you are on the next phase of the process.
But if you deliver the statement of intent without these things in place, then you are highly likely to be unable to follow through, and the most likely outcome is that you shred your cred. And thus put yourself backwards by quite a distance.
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Suggestion.
If you are in doubt about your exit plan, or your resolve to carry it out, say nothing.
Rather, re-double your work on your exit strategy and plug any weaknesses in it.
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This is deadly serious shit, and your preparations need to reflect this.
It is not a time to try and "bluff" or go off half cocked.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2016 2:03:38 GMT -5
Why is it that I can talk to others about my marriage, but find it the MOST difficult to start up a discussion with him??!!! The thought of having to bring up the topic of our marriage and divorce makes me feel physically sick to my stomach. I promised myself that when we returned from vacation I would send the kids to my sister's house and talk with him. I even told him we were going to talk! Now we are back and I am stressing about this conversation that I MUST have with him. Help! :-( Hi GG, I think the fact you feel physically sick to your stomach is the key. When I realized my first marriage was over I also felt sick to my stomach. It was 2 years before my wife actually left. I did not have the guts or intelligence to end it, so I got reamed. I always thought she would come to her senses, but that was naive and stupid. I regret not being the one to end it. My parents were married forever (until Dad passed) and they had 3 kids and if there was a problem it was always worked out, just like I thought my marriage was supposed to work out, last forever, have kids, build a future. I was wrong to think we were like my parents. You are physically ill because you do not want to take this course of action, but you know it is what is right. Stay strong. Don't continue to suffer over a decision that is already made. Do what is right for you. Best wishes |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Aug 14, 2016 3:17:42 GMT -5
ggold. My god. You are my emotion twin lady! That churning feeling is my constant companion. The words are on the tip of my tongue. But they prefer to stay there. Eating me up instead of freeing me. We'll get there. Something will click. Xxxxx
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Post by ggold on Aug 14, 2016 12:57:08 GMT -5
ggold . My god. You are my emotion twin lady! That churning feeling is my constant companion. The words are on the tip of my tongue. But they prefer to stay there. Eating me up instead of freeing me. We'll get there. Something will click. Xxxxx I'm glad I'm not alone!! Yes, the words are always on the tip of my tongue as well. Sometimes I get a bit out, but not everything that I should. It weighs on me so heavily!!! I did get a bit of a chat in with him yesterday. I asked him if, during his therapy, he's telling his therapist about where our marriage is headed. He said he was and that the therapist is working with him to keep him from losing it. (his mind) I told him we need to continue to talk but the kids definitely need to be out of the house. He agreed with that. I also said that I if I don't bring up our issues, he will never do so and we continue to have it hover over us. He said that wasn't true...but he's completely wrong. He NEVER initiates discussion!!! EVER!!!! I know we will get there!!! We cannot continue to live this shitty SM life forever!! Right?? xoxo |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Aug 14, 2016 13:04:38 GMT -5
I'm the same ggoldIsn't it strange they initiate relationship convo's about as often as they intiate sex! Whenever i bring anything up he either shuts me down straight away, or twists things to make me doubt my sanity, or gets the poor me puppy dog eyes out. He really knows how to work me. It does weigh physically heavy on us doesn't it. Sending you strength and self beleif beautiful xxx |
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Post by bballgirl on Aug 14, 2016 14:16:28 GMT -5
I'm the same ggoldIsn't it strange they initiate relationship convo's about as often as they intiate sex! Whenever i bring anything up he either shuts me down straight away, or twists things to make me doubt my sanity, or gets the poor me puppy dog eyes out. He really knows how to work me. It does weigh physically heavy on us doesn't it. Sending you strength and self beleif beautiful xxx I'm glad that you realize that the puppy dog eyes are a manipulation and yes it's so tough when they twist things on you to try to make you feel sad for them or feel guilty about how your decision is effecting their life. However the reality is they make decisions too that effect our lives only difference is we have a caring bone in our body about how they feel but they don't care about us. They just want things to go their way regardless of how we feel sad or lonely. They are takers and selfish and it's the hardest thing I ever had to say was that I don't want to be your wife, I don't want to be married, I want to live by myself. I got to a point after 23 years of marriage that he depleted me of any empathy or caring I had for him. If he got sick I didn't care. I have a platonic male friend that had a serious health scare lost Fall and it brought tears to my eyes. So I didn't change as a person thank goodness just in the way I felt about him. The day he was served divorce papers, he told me "now I'm going to have to go out and get my own health insurance but you don't care (which by the way he gets from his employer for the same price) My response looking right into his eyes - "yeah I really don't care". The old me could not have said that to him because how can I tell someone that I don't care about them but it got to a point that I realized ... He doesn't care about me so why should I care about him. Care about yourself and your children first and foremost. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 18, 2016 8:37:03 GMT -5
Why is it that I can talk to others about my marriage, but find it the MOST difficult to start up a discussion with him??!!! The thought of having to bring up the topic of our marriage and divorce makes me feel physically sick to my stomach. I promised myself that when we returned from vacation I would send the kids to my sister's house and talk with him. I even told him we were going to talk! Now we are back and I am stressing about this conversation that I MUST have with him. OK -- catching up after a few days away from the forum... and on everyone's reply so far. First, I definitely agree with "it feels hard because it IS hard talking about the problem to the person who is the problem." But I'm going to propose another reason why this is so hard for you at this time in your situation: you want this talk to be THREE DIFFERENT THINGS... and it can't be all of them! 1) Part of you wants to put all the reasons on the table to explain why you are wanting a divorce. You want him to understand you, believe you, and even agree with you. As much as you are "so done with him", you still would prefer to have the validation of him saying "OK, I finally hear you, and -- you're right -- I've been awful. You're right: let's call it done." 2) Part of you wants to just get it over "I'm just letting you know for real, 100%, its final: the marriage is over". No reasons, no explanation; just unequivocal "its done". Those are different things. I, too, feel for a long time I was stuck concocting "The Talk" as if it had to be #1. As if I had to craft a list of reasons and evidence and examples that was SO COMPELLING, even she would agree that it is time to divorce. But I've come to realize, the idea of #1 is folly. She just won't ever agree. She'd rather have a flawed marriage to unhappy me than no marriage. She will not go willingly in to divorce. What is the "third thing" that you might be wanting this talk to be? 3) It is kind of like #1 -- listing all the reasons. But this is coming from the small part of you which wishes that you could have said this stuff ten or fifteen years ago... and he would have HEARD you... and ACTED to fix stuff. Even though you are believing NOW that it is over... I wager a small part of you is a bit guilty that you didn't manage to fix this before it was over... and fantasizing about #3 is some how due to that guilt. It is a combination of trying to appease that guilt... and yet feeding it as well. How close is that? Helpful at all? If so... how am I able to put my finger on this? Only because I think I've been in the same "three talk quandry" for many years. However, with the help of EP ILIASM and this forum over the past 18 months, I think I'm realizing that the only way out is #2... and I'm getting more comfortable with that. Folks say "when you are ready to leave, you will know". For me that translates to: "when the only version of The Talk is the plain and simple 'it's over' (Talk #2) -- and you have no emotional attachment to Talk #1 or Talk #3 -- then you are emotionally ready to leave." One last thought. By the way, I'm a "list maker": I like lists. I make lists for everything. In this thread, I hear folks encouraging "write down your list, and practice it". While I kind of agree that this will be useful/comforting/therapeutic, I don't necessarily agree that is the "outline for The Talk". Why? Because "The List" feeds the idea that Talk #1 or Talk #3 is likely to "work"... and as I just made the case that Talk #2 is the main way out... and no list is required. |
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Post by bballgirl on Aug 18, 2016 9:18:43 GMT -5
Why is it that I can talk to others about my marriage, but find it the MOST difficult to start up a discussion with him??!!! The thought of having to bring up the topic of our marriage and divorce makes me feel physically sick to my stomach. I promised myself that when we returned from vacation I would send the kids to my sister's house and talk with him. I even told him we were going to talk! Now we are back and I am stressing about this conversation that I MUST have with him. OK -- catching up after a few days away from the forum... and on everyone's reply so far. First, I definitely agree with "it feels hard because it IS hard talking about the problem to the person who is the problem." But I'm going to propose another reason why this is so hard for you at this time in your situation: you want this talk to be THREE DIFFERENT THINGS... and it can't be all of them! 1) Part of you wants to put all the reasons on the table to explain why you are wanting a divorce. You want him to understand you, believe you, and even agree with you. As much as you are "so done with him", you still would prefer to have the validation of him saying "OK, I finally hear you, and -- you're right -- I've been awful. You're right: let's call it done." 2) Part of you wants to just get it over "I'm just letting you know for real, 100%, its final: the marriage is over". No reasons, no explanation; just unequivocal "its done". Those are different things. I, too, feel for a long time I was stuck concocting "The Talk" as if it had to be #1. As if I had to craft a list of reasons and evidence and examples that was SO COMPELLING, even she would agree that it is time to divorce. But I've come to realize, the idea of #1 is folly. She just won't ever agree. She'd rather have a flawed marriage to unhappy me than no marriage. She will not go willingly in to divorce. What is the "third thing" that you might be wanting this talk to be? 3) It is kind of like #1 -- listing all the reasons. But this is coming from the small part of you which wishes that you could have said this stuff ten or fifteen years ago... and he would have HEARD you... and ACTED to fix stuff. Even though you are believing NOW that it is over... I wager a small part of you is a bit guilty that you didn't manage to fix this before it was over... and fantasizing about #3 is some how due to that guilt. It is a combination of trying to appease that guilt... and yet feeding it as well. How close is that? Helpful at all? If so... how am I able to put my finger on this? Only because I think I've been in the same "three talk quandry" for many years. However, with the help of EP ILIASM and this forum over the past 18 months, I think I'm realizing that the only way out is #2... and I'm getting more comfortable with that. Folks say "when you are ready to leave, you will know". For me that translates to: "when the only version of The Talk is the plain and simple 'it's over' (Talk #2) -- and you have no emotional attachment to Talk #1 or Talk #3 -- then you are emotionally ready to leave." One last thought. By the way, I'm a "list maker": I like lists. I make lists for everything. In this thread, I hear folks encouraging "write down your list, and practice it". While I kind of agree that this will be useful/comforting/therapeutic, I don't necessarily agree that is the "outline for The Talk". Why? Because "The List" feeds the idea that Talk #1 or Talk #3 is likely to "work"... and as I just made the case that Talk #2 is the main way out... and no list is required. Very insightful- I agree with this completely. When it came time to rip the bandaid off list 1 or 3 didn't matter. I just needed to communicate that I no longer wanted to be married, I no longer wanted to be a wife, and that he should go get himself an attorney. |
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Post by ted on Aug 18, 2016 14:56:11 GMT -5
[....] But I'm going to propose another reason why this is so hard for you at this time in your situation: you want this talk to be THREE DIFFERENT THINGS... and it can't be all of them! [....] I'm in dumbstruck awe; your list is beyond insightful. **ted rocks back in his chair and stares blankly at the screen for a while.**I'm continually amazed by how similar all of our experiences are. I guess it means we're all humans, and we're not making this shit up. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 18, 2016 15:09:24 GMT -5
Yea, you got it Dan! That's also a way of controlling a controller. It's like saying, " you are under arrest, you can come along peacefully or with force. That is your only choice"
You are taking back your freedom. Another response to any of there controlling, manipulative, change of subjects, or accusations, is, " speak to your attorney about it."
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Post by Dan on Aug 18, 2016 15:36:51 GMT -5
I'm continually amazed by how similar all of our experiences are. I guess it means we're all humans, and we're not making this shit up. As for "amazed by how similar all of our experiences are": I agree! - Despite all the different personalities and reasons the low-libido spouse is not interested in engaging in a normal healthy marital sex life, the IMPACT to the normal libido spouse seems to have remarkably similar themes. Spouse is a totally lazy deadbeat? Spouse is a hyper-controlling bitch/S.O.B.? Spouse is an OK person who is just bedraggled by life, ending up with a very low or lost libido? It seems that the emotional impact to the refused spouse is remarkably similar.
- AND -- at least in the participants of this forum and its predecessor -- the impacts are remarkably similar across women and men. Given the general "party line" of what our society generally believes about male-vs-female sex drives, one might guess a priori that men and women would deal very differently with marital sexlessness. However I find that there isn't much of a "gender divide" between the men and women here: so much of our feelings and experiences -- and then also our peer-support -- seems to apply readily to both men and women.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 18, 2016 23:28:51 GMT -5
Just putting this out there. My version of the divorce decision as I relayed it. I focused on: here's your notice and this is MY plan and you aren't included in it. I read this to him and it was the first time in years that he did not interrupt me (tried but stopped himself and only once). After I read it aloud, handed it to him and said: We can talk about it now if you want to.
Dear STBX -
I have decided I would like to start a new life for myself, no longer married to you. I have sought counseling to assist in defining and clarifying my desire for a different life that does not include the role of wife. I have visited a lawyer to find out how a divorce would work. The legal paperwork and formal civil dissolution is easy. I know that actual separation and division of assets and debts won't be as fast of a step, but it is essentially simple paperwork.
For too long, I have felt I was 'not a full half of the couple' and have been dissatisfied with this. I know that you have been putting a lot of your energy into 'making me feel better' the last few weeks. I did try to reach back out to you during this time, but have found I am unable to do so. I have no doubt that you have much love for me. I also have much love for you still. But I do not feel loved as I would like to be as your wife. I know that I have a choice in this and so I have chosen to leave the marriage.
There is no other love interest. I am not leaving for another person - I am leaving for myself, for my own hopes & dreams. I literally slow down the car when driving home, to delay my arrival. That isn't healthy: that I live somewhere that I sort of dread coming back to.
Previously, I had thought it was from your coldness. The recent weeks have proven I was wrong about that. Even at your warmest - lately you have been fawning over me - and even at that, I still pull away and think "it isn't enough; it's not what I want" - - what I want is my full freedom. I do not feel that freedom here with you. I understand that is not intentional on your part and there is no blame in this realization. The joint dynamic that we create no longer satisfies me or brings me happiness. The only solution, acceptable to me, is to pursue a divorce.
It will take some time to work out the different living arrangements and the financial details but my decision is made and I plan to proceed with it.
With love and respect,
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 8:33:09 GMT -5
GeekGoddess, you made me curious about what I said. I went back and found the document just now. I didn't read mine, I memorized it and said it to him (that old theater training popping up.) I don't know if it would help anyone or not, but I thought I'd share my version also. It's a slightly different approach, but shares the same brevity and clarity of intent of yours. "I want a divorce. I’m not happy in our marriage and I haven’t been for a long time. I don’t hate you, I’m not angry with you – I just don’t want to be married to you anymore. I know this is going to be difficult not just emotionally, but financially and I want you to know that I’m not going to try to screw you over. I know that I will need to go back to work full time and I have a plan for that. I also want to tell you are a great father and I will always support your relationship with our kids. I know you will need some time to process this, but I would like for us to tell the kids over our daughter's fall break. There are a lot of details to discuss, but those can wait for a little while. I’m sorry it’s come to this. I wish I could say there is something we could do to turn this around, but there just isn’t. I need to move on." Of course, it didn't play out smoothly, but that's on him.
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