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Post by h on Dec 17, 2023 14:34:00 GMT -5
Ugh. Why can’t she initiate?! Every now and then I’ll start to rub on her after snuggling, because she wants non sexual touch so this is giving her what she wants, and after a while she will just say go”go shut the door”. We’ve actually had arguments about this because I ask her why can’t she initiate and go shut the door herself, or even better why can’t she start rubbing and/or kissing on me? We go to church. She knows marriage is important and that sex is important. We’ve even sat through a study on sex from a biblical view and she knows how important this is in a marriage. My wife claims to be a Christian but doesn't go to church or read the Bible at all. I know, because when she used to work for a Catholic school, they gave her a Bible. I put a bookmark in it to 1Corinthians Ch7. It hasn't moved and the book has undisturbed dust on it. If someone doesn't want to have sex, then no amount of religion is going to change that. Besides, if I have to use the Bible to guilt trip her into sleeping with me, I'd rather not. If she had come to that conclusion on her own then great, but I'm not going to try pushing her there.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 18, 2023 21:39:31 GMT -5
Ugh. Why can’t she initiate?! Every now and then I’ll start to rub on her after snuggling, because she wants non sexual touch so this is giving her what she wants, and after a while she will just say ”go shut the door”. We’ve actually had arguments about this because I ask her why can’t she initiate and go shut the door herself, or even better why can’t she start rubbing and/or kissing on me? We go to church. She knows marriage is important and that sex is important. We’ve even sat through a study on sex from a biblical view and she knows how important this is in a marriage. I think that command for you to close the door is initiation, it sounds like you're looking for a level up. 1) Desire. 2) Pretend desire. 3) Enthusiasm. I could be reading this wrong, but the tone seems to be begging. It's a passive, victimized condition antithetical to stereotypical masculinity. The manly way to handle it is aggression. This can produce fear, resentment, and avoidance. Just as counterproductive. I got active engagement when I told her I'd be going elsewhere. This is not a recommendation to do the same, but I've been in the powerless role and I've seen many more at ILIASM in the same situation and none persuaded their refusing wives to be more loving. (I have seen refusing husbands mend their ways). Is your lover's physical attraction to you a prize worth putting your marriage on the line for? Or is your wife's compromise going to be adequate to make it until death do you part? The arguments and seething just make the marginal improvement continue to suck. Some sexless marriages are dealt with via acceptance of the hard facts of celibacy. Yours may be an upgrade to acceptance of a former refuser who cannot manage embracing their sexuality. Is it not enough? You may still have the same three choices before you: 1) Leave 2) Stay and cope. 3) Stay and Outsource. The only difference for #2 is that your dissatisfaction has sex associated with it; but it is still dissatisfaction. Sometimes we get impatient with people saying "Everything is great but the sex." Here you have the sex part, but stuff still sucks. Sex wasn't enough to push the marriage into the realm of "okay". There may be a lot going on here that could stand a hard look.
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Post by aquacat on Dec 18, 2023 21:46:11 GMT -5
Ugh. Why can’t she initiate?! Every now and then I’ll start to rub on her after snuggling, because she wants non sexual touch so this is giving her what she wants, and after a while she will just say go”go shut the door”. We’ve actually had arguments about this because I ask her why can’t she initiate and go shut the door herself, or even better why can’t she start rubbing and/or kissing on me? We go to church. She knows marriage is important and that sex is important. We’ve even sat through a study on sex from a biblical view and she knows how important this is in a marriage. My wife claims to be a Christian but doesn't go to church or read the Bible at all. I know, because when she used to work for a Catholic school, they gave her a Bible. I put a bookmark in it to 1Corinthians Ch7. It hasn't moved and the book has undisturbed dust on it. If someone doesn't want to have sex, then no amount of religion is going to change that. Besides, if I have to use the Bible to guilt trip her into sleeping with me, I'd rather not. If she had come to that conclusion on her own then great, but I'm not going to try pushing her there. She hates it when I bring up that very verse. She also hates it when I bring up the verse about wives submitting to their husbands and visa versa. She thinks the starfish sex position is enough.
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Post by aquacat on Dec 20, 2023 7:52:39 GMT -5
Ugh. Why can’t she initiate?! Every now and then I’ll start to rub on her after snuggling, because she wants non sexual touch so this is giving her what she wants, and after a while she will just say ”go shut the door”. We’ve actually had arguments about this because I ask her why can’t she initiate and go shut the door herself, or even better why can’t she start rubbing and/or kissing on me? We go to church. She knows marriage is important and that sex is important. We’ve even sat through a study on sex from a biblical view and she knows how important this is in a marriage. I think that command for you to close the door is initiation, it sounds like you're looking for a level up. 1) Desire. 2) Pretend desire. 3) Enthusiasm. I could be reading this wrong, but the tone seems to be begging. It's a passive, victimized condition antithetical to stereotypical masculinity. The manly way to handle it is aggression. This can produce fear, resentment, and avoidance. Just as counterproductive. I got active engagement when I told her I'd be going elsewhere. This is not a recommendation to do the same, but I've been in the powerless role and I've seen many more at ILIASM in the same situation and none persuaded their refusing wives to be more loving. (I have seen refusing husbands mend their ways). Is your lover's physical attraction to you a prize worth putting your marriage on the line for? Or is your wife's compromise going to be adequate to make it until death do you part? The arguments and seething just make the marginal improvement continue to suck. Some sexless marriages are dealt with via acceptance of the hard facts of celibacy. Yours may be an upgrade to acceptance of a former refuser who cannot manage embracing their sexuality. Is it not enough? You may still have the same three choices before you: 1) Leave 2) Stay and cope. 3) Stay and Outsource. The only difference for #2 is that your dissatisfaction has sex associated with it; but it is still dissatisfaction. Sometimes we get impatient with people saying "Everything is great but the sex." Here you have the sex part, but stuff still sucks. Sex wasn't enough to push the marriage into the realm of "okay". There may be a lot going on here that could stand a hard look. I'm sure there are other things now that are creeping into the marriage that are bothering me. I have no choice but to stay due to financial reasons surrounding our kids. I have told myself that I will be re-evaluating things once my youngest moves out in about 7-8 years. Outsourcing would be an option but as connected as our world is now, my wife would find out and it would be bad in our house. Right now all I can do is fantasize about what I wish I had for a sex life and just imagine how things could be.
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Post by aquacat on Feb 20, 2024 12:14:03 GMT -5
We've discussed this I don't know how many times now and nothing changes. This past weekend we had a scheduled date night that I had planned over a month ago as we had tickets to go see a show. I wanted to take her to dinner beforehand and I told her this the day before. The day of she complains about going out to dinner as she didn't think she'd be hungry. I had asked her the day before about doing something with me that wasn't intercourse because it was that time of the month and she wants nothing to do with sex during that time. She had ignored me when I suggested maybe giving some manual relief. I mention that because the afternoon of our date night she had asked me to rub her neck and back like she usually does. I am getting to where I don't like doing this anymore because it's one sided. I start and mention that I was hoping to also be rubbed the night before and she promptly gets up to go get dressed and complains that when it's her time of the month she wants nothing to do with anything sexual and that I need to leave her alone. She then insists on going to dinner which I did not want to do anymore and quite honestly I didn't want to go on our date but we went anyway. It was the most awkward dinner we've ever had because we weren't speaking very much. The show was good and when we got home we went to bed still not talking much. The next morning after she woke up as I was already awake she rolled over and initiated a handjob, which I tried telling her I did not want. She insisted anyway so I had to really think in order to get aroused and finish. I was not in a good mood for it and when I told her why I didn't want it she said she insisted and it was her idea and that I wasn't forcing her to do anything.
I finally came to the realization that nothing will change and that while we are great friends and parents, we will never be romantic lovers. I'm not the guy she finds sexually attracted no matter what she tells me. I don't get her turned on enough to want to initiate anything. Now I just need to decide what to do about it. I still think staying until my youngest moves out is still my best plan financially. I don't live in a state that requires alimony.
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m76
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Post by m76 on Feb 20, 2024 12:31:51 GMT -5
We've discussed this I don't know how many times now and nothing changes. This past weekend we had a scheduled date night that I had planned over a month ago as we had tickets to go see a show. I wanted to take her to dinner beforehand and I told her this the day before. The day of she complains about going out to dinner as she didn't think she'd be hungry. I had asked her the day before about doing something with me that wasn't intercourse because it was that time of the month and she wants nothing to do with sex during that time. She had ignored me when I suggested maybe giving some manual relief. I mention that because the afternoon of our date night she had asked me to rub her neck and back like she usually does. I am getting to where I don't like doing this anymore because it's one sided. I start and mention that I was hoping to also be rubbed the night before and she promptly gets up to go get dressed and complains that when it's her time of the month she wants nothing to do with anything sexual and that I need to leave her alone. She then insists on going to dinner which I did not want to do anymore and quite honestly I didn't want to go on our date but we went anyway. It was the most awkward dinner we've ever had because we weren't speaking very much. The show was good and when we got home we went to bed still not talking much. The next morning after she woke up as I was already awake she rolled over and initiated a handjob, which I tried telling her I did not want. She insisted anyway so I had to really think in order to get aroused and finish. I was not in a good mood for it and when I told her why I didn't want it she said she insisted and it was her idea and that I wasn't forcing her to do anything. I finally came to the realization that nothing will change and that while we are great friends and parents, we will never be romantic lovers. I'm not the guy she finds sexually attracted no matter what she tells me. I don't get her turned on enough to want to initiate anything. Now I just need to decide what to do about it. I still think staying until my youngest moves out is still my best plan financially. I don't live in a state that requires alimony. My youngest will still be at home for another year but I can't live the way I have been that long. I know I'm going to take a big hit but it's just money right?
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Missingout
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Posts: 196
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by Missingout on Feb 20, 2024 13:24:24 GMT -5
We've discussed this I don't know how many times now and nothing changes. This past weekend we had a scheduled date night that I had planned over a month ago as we had tickets to go see a show. I wanted to take her to dinner beforehand and I told her this the day before. The day of she complains about going out to dinner as she didn't think she'd be hungry. I had asked her the day before about doing something with me that wasn't intercourse because it was that time of the month and she wants nothing to do with sex during that time. She had ignored me when I suggested maybe giving some manual relief. I mention that because the afternoon of our date night she had asked me to rub her neck and back like she usually does. I am getting to where I don't like doing this anymore because it's one sided. I start and mention that I was hoping to also be rubbed the night before and she promptly gets up to go get dressed and complains that when it's her time of the month she wants nothing to do with anything sexual and that I need to leave her alone. She then insists on going to dinner which I did not want to do anymore and quite honestly I didn't want to go on our date but we went anyway. It was the most awkward dinner we've ever had because we weren't speaking very much. The show was good and when we got home we went to bed still not talking much. The next morning after she woke up as I was already awake she rolled over and initiated a handjob, which I tried telling her I did not want. She insisted anyway so I had to really think in order to get aroused and finish. I was not in a good mood for it and when I told her why I didn't want it she said she insisted and it was her idea and that I wasn't forcing her to do anything. I finally came to the realization that nothing will change and that while we are great friends and parents, we will never be romantic lovers. I'm not the guy she finds sexually attracted no matter what she tells me. I don't get her turned on enough to want to initiate anything. Now I just need to decide what to do about it. I still think staying until my youngest moves out is still my best plan financially. I don't live in a state that requires alimony. My youngest will still be at home for another year but I can't live the way I have been that long. I know I'm going to take a big hit but it's just money right? Yeah it's just money. I've survived on less. Anyways I believe I will get a raise when I get a divorce. I can live within my means . She cannot. My youngest is 14 and noticed my wife's mood swings. I believe she would come stay with me.
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Post by aquacat on Feb 21, 2024 7:36:29 GMT -5
We had another argument last night about sex. She says the reason she doesn't feel like having sex or being sexual with me is because I don't listen to her and she doesn't feel safe talking to me about it or being vulnerable with me with sex. I am the reason she doesn't like sex and the way she put it you would think I was a horrible person. In order to fix this she told me I needed to change and show her that I will listen and stop when she says no, but I already do that but I don't know why she thinks that. I'm done.
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m76
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Post by m76 on Feb 21, 2024 7:57:51 GMT -5
We had another argument last night about sex. She says the reason she doesn't feel like having sex or being sexual with me is because I don't listen to her and she doesn't feel safe talking to me about it or being vulnerable with me with sex. I am the reason she doesn't like sex and the way she put it you would think I was a horrible person. In order to fix this she told me I needed to change and show her that I will listen and stop when she says no, but I already do that but I don't know why she thinks that. I'm done. I had a similar conversation with my wife, not an argument but just talking about it. She had told me she doesn't like initiating any intimacy because she thinks I will just want sex. But I've been clear I'll respect her boundaries and with our therapy sessions we made it clear that kissing sessions would go no further then kissing. She still cancels kissing dates and will not initiate. My personal feeling is that Mrs aquacat, like my wife, just hates physical intimacy and will make any excuse to avoid it. It's because of that level of avoidance, not specifically the lack of sex that I'm calling it quits.
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Post by aquacat on Feb 21, 2024 8:02:03 GMT -5
We had another argument last night about sex. She says the reason she doesn't feel like having sex or being sexual with me is because I don't listen to her and she doesn't feel safe talking to me about it or being vulnerable with me with sex. I am the reason she doesn't like sex and the way she put it you would think I was a horrible person. In order to fix this she told me I needed to change and show her that I will listen and stop when she says no, but I already do that but I don't know why she thinks that. I'm done. I had a similar conversation with my wife, not an argument but just talking about it. She had told me she doesn't like initiating any intimacy because she thinks I will just want sex. But I've been clear I'll respect her boundaries and with our therapy sessions we made it clear that kissing sessions would go no further then kissing. She still cancels kissing dates and will not initiate. My personal feeling is that Mrs aquacat, like my wife, just hates physical intimacy and will make any excuse to avoid it. It's because of that level of avoidance, not specifically the lack of sex that I'm calling it quits. Same with initiation as well as we discussed this. She told me if I want it I need to make the move. Why do that when I've been rejected so many times in the past?? Kissing isn't passionate either, even during sex. I feel like kissing is forced with her. I do agree with you though that she may just hate physical intimacy.
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m76
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Posts: 331
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Post by m76 on Feb 21, 2024 8:30:04 GMT -5
I had a similar conversation with my wife, not an argument but just talking about it. She had told me she doesn't like initiating any intimacy because she thinks I will just want sex. But I've been clear I'll respect her boundaries and with our therapy sessions we made it clear that kissing sessions would go no further then kissing. She still cancels kissing dates and will not initiate. My personal feeling is that Mrs aquacat, like my wife, just hates physical intimacy and will make any excuse to avoid it. It's because of that level of avoidance, not specifically the lack of sex that I'm calling it quits. Same with initiation as well as we discussed this. She told me if I want it I need to make the move. Why do that when I've been rejected so many times in the past?? Kissing isn't passionate either, even during sex. I feel like kissing is forced with her. I do agree with you though that she may just hate physical intimacy. One more thing I noticed... it sounds like Mrs aquacat tried to shift the blame you. This also sounds like my wife who is convinced there is nothing wrong with her. She has said we need to compromise and that means I need to change.
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Post by aquacat on Feb 21, 2024 8:34:08 GMT -5
Same with initiation as well as we discussed this. She told me if I want it I need to make the move. Why do that when I've been rejected so many times in the past?? Kissing isn't passionate either, even during sex. I feel like kissing is forced with her. I do agree with you though that she may just hate physical intimacy. One more thing I noticed... it sounds like Mrs aquacat tried to shift the blame you. This also sounds like my wife who is convinced there is nothing wrong with her. She has said we need to compromise and that means I need to change. In our last conversation I felt like the blame was on me for why things are the way they are. She has also mentioned compromise which in her mind means I drop everything I want like oral and we only do the things she's okay with, which I can count on one hand what those are. She said she shouldn't have to do anything she's not comfortable doing, which I totally agree, but I told her that sometimes we need to step out of our comfort zone so long as we both trust each other.
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Post by toughtiger on Feb 21, 2024 9:34:58 GMT -5
reading these posts and knowing it works the other way too .... makes me think of the classic bully........ who holds something you want out of your reach and then says "just reach out"... then pulls it away and laughs, towards the end I would rub his thigh cup his genitals and kiss his chest and he said "he had no idea i was interested.".. like WTF ? he would rub my shoulder like consoling a small kid who lost a balloon .......then claims i missed his advances LMAO. Shoulder has never been a hot zone for me Just be honest say "i have no interest never will" then quit the charades. The "oh you initiate ".... "no you do it" is a stall tactic nothing more.
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m76
Full Member
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Post by m76 on Feb 21, 2024 9:42:12 GMT -5
reading these posts and knowing it works the other way too .... makes me think of the classic bully........ who holds something you want out of your reach and then says "just reach out"... then pulls it away and laughs, towards the end I would rub his thigh cup his genitals and kiss his chest and he said "he had no idea i was interested.".. like WTF ? he would rub my shoulder like consoling a small kid who lost a balloon .......then claims i missed his advances LMAO. Shoulder has never been a hot zone for me Just be honest say "i have no interest never will" then quit the charades. The "oh you initiate ".... "no you do it" is a stall tactic nothing more. If cupping his balls isn't initiating I don't know what is. That goes along with grinding your butt against his dick. ....and these are two things I miss so much.
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Missingout
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Posts: 196
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by Missingout on Feb 21, 2024 9:58:52 GMT -5
We had another argument last night about sex. She says the reason she doesn't feel like having sex or being sexual with me is because I don't listen to her and she doesn't feel safe talking to me about it or being vulnerable with me with sex. I am the reason she doesn't like sex and the way she put it you would think I was a horrible person. In order to fix this she told me I needed to change and show her that I will listen and stop when she says no, but I already do that but I don't know why she thinks that. I'm done. How long have u been married? Mine is going on 23 years. And she still feels uncomfortable talking about sex? She gets angry and defensive. It's reminds me of an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand.I don't know why I'm still here?
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