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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Nov 15, 2022 22:40:25 GMT -5
Its all about confidence. It drives women wild. If you can be confident without being an ass, The attention will follow.
So work on the things that build your confidence. And once you have confidence, find hobbies and go flirt.
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Post by blunder8 on Nov 15, 2022 23:05:12 GMT -5
That is a great balancing act. I tend to be self-aware to a fault, so as not to be perceived an ass
Reminds me of a dad joke: My wife thinks I'm sexy. Every time I walk by she says "what an ass."
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Post by baza on Nov 16, 2022 3:27:43 GMT -5
There was a post a couple of years back quoting the assorted ways people get caught cheating.
Email and Mobile were far and away the most common ways of getting caught.
Other (less common) ways people shot themselves in the foot include - - unusual transactions on bank statements - being seen with the cheating party by a 3rd person who knows your spouse - not being a very good liar
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Post by blunder8 on Nov 16, 2022 12:46:33 GMT -5
There was a post a couple of years back quoting the assorted ways people get caught cheating. Email and Mobile were far and away the most common ways of getting caught. Other (less common) ways people shot themselves in the foot include - - unusual transactions on bank statements - being seen with the cheating party by a 3rd person who knows your spouse - not being a very good liar I'm guessing that blurting out "that reverse cowgirl last night was amazing" followed by "oh shit!" is probably not common.
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 16, 2022 19:36:14 GMT -5
"I was discovered, denied nothing, and Mrs. MirrorOrchid reset to stop me from dating her." Just curious: how were you discovered? Surely the Mrs. was not on Okcupid? It's a bit fuzzy, I think my younger daughter asked where I had been earlier in the day and I was dodging the question which was suspicious as hell. My wife was within earshot of the conversation and I think that's where I had decided not to hide it and just explained I "had lunch with someone I met online." I think then I said it had been a dating site. Not much detail beyond that. Mrs. MirrorOrchid hated that I'd hidden my exploration, but didn't have much in terms of legs to stand on. Mentally, I called "Bullshit'. She damn well minded I was making her compete for my time and attention. But then my wife decided to be physical with me and done pretty well at it, I'm glad (and surprised) to say. I got discovered because I was evasive and wouldn't lie. I'm not good at it and lacked the shame to hide what I was doing. Forcing your spouse to be celibate is more shameful, I think. She did at least four years of damage before I simply decided not to suffer any more. Celibate spouses might not see involuntary sexlessness as suffering. It is, and worse. Some ILIASM members admit to suicidal thoughts. Some will start to lie in order to have affairs. Some scheme departures without warning their spouse a ton of bricks is about to fall on their heads. Some may engage in varying degrees of coercion. All this deranged behavior simmers in an environment of prolonged deprivation, so the sexual hunger is seen as part of the mental dysfunction. The entire package can be positively repulsive, making the rejection all the stronger. Vicious cycle. All this can grow from an otherwise stable personality. A lying, scheming, slavering, cloying, simpering, perverted caricature of a human simply allowed to fester and ferment in an inescapable cauldron of scarcity. The last three years seem to indicate I'm not unworthy of her affection, she just didn't prioritize it, until someone else did. Thus, you'll see me bringing up the suggestion repeatedly. Few husbands appear to escape sexlessness. This method (declaration of the marriage opening) worked. It's dangerous, and not for the faint of heart, but draw your own conclusions. Baza's warning always in mind.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 16, 2022 20:47:03 GMT -5
blunder8 If you really don't want a divorce, having an affair may be a bad idea unless your wife agrees to an open marriage. Otherwise, if you get caught, due to the social disapproval and your probable shame, you'd likely be in a worse situation than if you divorced without an affair.
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Post by baza on Nov 16, 2022 23:26:53 GMT -5
Yep. If the position you hold to is "no divorce" that's all very well, but cheating is a high risk strategy, a strategy that can easily result in the very outcome (of divorce) you don't want. If you are determined to pursue the cheating option (and that's a perfectly valid option) it is not a thing to go in to half arsed. You are best to prepare as you would for divorce. This option can fly off to unknown tangents, none of which you have much control over.
It would be smart to see a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish - theoretically - how a divorce would shake out for you. Within that legal advice, putting together a - theoretical - exit strategy is smart. Shoring up your support group to help you through such a - theoretical - situation. Researching everything you can about shepherding any minor children through such a - theoretical - situation. Having done the above you will, at the very least, have an alternative to the current situation.
Whether you might enact your - theoretical - exit strategy is entirely at your discretion. In any event, it is wise to have an exit plan as ALL marriages end. Death or divorce attest t that fact.
Good luck in the choices that confront you in your situation. There's no easy choices in these circumstances.
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 17, 2022 5:51:09 GMT -5
In a case of a sexless marriage I greatly dislike the terms "consent to" or "agree to" open your marriage.
Baza's caveats are all very much applicable but there are (at least?) three levels of outsourcing:
1) Secret (the only one I consider worthy of the pejorative "cheating") 2) Informed (your marriage has new rules both players can follow, or quit the game) 3) Consensual (the holy grail. Awesome if achieved. The result of Asking, and the spouse agreeing to. Clearly, the very best of the three, but not a possibility in all cases.)
Asking for, and waiting for a refuser to agree to, an open marriage can become nothing more than stalling resumption of intimate human companionship. Perhaps one could do this and have teh declaration be a follow up months (weeks?) later. It would be important to have this fallback position in mind. It is ask and declare, not ask and be refused.
Declaring open marriage, not asking, will bring about the dramatic change Baza promises/warns about. One way or another.
You can declare it to be in the future, with a deadline for positive change, as I did. Or make it immediate, but most SMs have lasted so long, adding the element of a probation period allows the declaration to be a negotiable event to discuss for a limited time.
There is almost zero discussion of informed non-monogamy and there should be. There's no dishonesty combined with the lack of sexual fidelity as there is in secret non-monogamy that is widely viewed as UNethical "cheating". That honesty, when I informed Mrs. MirrorOrchid that I would be dating again in about six weeks, may have been a critical difference that has resulted in my repaired marriage. (past results are not a guarantee of future performance)
The declaration alone, in full, honest disclosure may be the spark that ignites the powder keg of divorce, so Baza's advice holds as if you were "cheating"; keeping your unilateral opening a secret, but the refuser will not be able to claim they divorced you because you were deceptive and unworthy of trust. That's a big deal to me, and maybe others.
I admit that the non-sexual dates I went on were hidden, yes. I theorize that not telling your refuser you went to breakfast or a coffee with a stranger is a very uncomfortable reason to tell loved ones and friends you divorced your spouse.
"They cheated on you?" "No." "They were about to?" "Not really." "How far did they get?" "They were finding out if they liked each other." "And how'd you find out?" "He told me three months before he went on the date." <awkward pause> "Oh."
A lot of refused spouses come here not even liking their refuser anymore. Divorce makes perfect sense for them. For those who find the idea of having a "nesting partner" until death committed to each other's well-being appealing, informed non-monogamy is a last ditch effort to save that future worthy of consideration.
Still others want "the whole package" and even though they love their refuser, they want to grow old with their lover, not an amicable business partner. To each his own.
In my case, I might, just maybe, have sought the former, and got the latter. Only time will tell.
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Post by blunder8 on Nov 17, 2022 8:24:21 GMT -5
In a case of a sexless marriage I greatly dislike the terms "consent to" or "agree to" open your marriage. Baza's caveats are all very much applicable but there are (at least?) three levels of outsourcing: 1) Secret (the only one I consider worthy of the pejorative "cheating") 2) Informed (your marriage has new rules both players can follow, or quit the game) 3) Consensual (the holy grail. Awesome if achieved. The result of Asking, and the spouse agreeing to. Clearly, the very best of the three, but not a possibility in all cases.) Asking for, and waiting for a refuser to agree to, an open marriage can become nothing more than stalling resumption of intimate human companionship. Perhaps one could do this and have teh declaration be a follow up months (weeks?) later. It would be important to have this fallback position in mind. It is ask and declare, not ask and be refused. Declaring open marriage, not asking, will bring about the dramatic change Baza promises/warns about. One way or another. You can declare it to be in the future, with a deadline for positive change, as I did. Or make it immediate, but most SMs have lasted so long, adding the element of a probation period allows the declaration to be a negotiable event to discuss for a limited time. There is almost zero discussion of informed non-monogamy and there should be. There's no dishonesty combined with the lack of sexual fidelity as there is in secret non-monogamy that is widely viewed as UNethical "cheating". That honesty, when I informed Mrs. MirrorOrchid that I would be dating again in about six weeks, may have been a critical difference that has resulted in my repaired marriage. (past results are not a guarantee of future performance) The declaration alone, in full, honest disclosure may be the spark that ignites the powder keg of divorce, so Baza's advice holds as if you were "cheating"; keeping your unilateral opening a secret, but the refuser will not be able to claim they divorced you because you were deceptive and unworthy of trust. That's a big deal to me, and maybe others. I admit that the non-sexual dates I went on were hidden, yes. I theorize that not telling your refuser you went to breakfast or a coffee with a stranger is a very uncomfortable reason to tell loved ones and friends you divorced your spouse. "They cheated on you?" "No." "They were about to?" "Not really." "How far did they get?" "They were finding out if they liked each other." "And how'd you find out?" "He told me three months before he went on the date." <awkward pause> "Oh." A lot of refused spouses come here not even liking their refuser anymore. Divorce makes perfect sense for them. For those who find the idea of having a "nesting partner" until death committed to each other's well-being appealing, informed non-monogamy is a last ditch effort to save that future worthy of consideration. Still others want "the whole package" and even though they love their refuser, they want to grow old with their lover, not an amicable business partner. To each his own. In my case, I might, just maybe, have sought the former, and got the latter. Only time will tell. I'm a little confused. Was your declaration done with the intention to seek and find SEX? You mention "dating," which not everyone associates as leading directly to sex. Or, was your declaration only the leverage to bring her to the bargaining table? I'm not advocating for infidelity in a broad sense. I believed in marriage for over 30 years. But, in our case, the marriage vows have been shattered a thousand times or more over decades by her refusals. When being refused, what exactly am I cheating on? I think at some point I will pursue the ask or declare route. I'm not sure that makes sense quite yet. I'm also not sure I'm ready to outsource either. Still rolling it around in my mind. Can you clarify what you intended with your declarations and did your wife understand it as a negotiation tool, or did she fear losing your fidelity in the bedroom?
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 17, 2022 19:27:10 GMT -5
...Declaring open marriage, not asking, will bring about the dramatic change Baza promises/warns about. One way or another. ...That honesty, when I informed Mrs. MirrorOrchid that I would be dating again in about six weeks, may have been a critical difference that has resulted in my repaired marriage. I'm a little confused. Was your declaration done with the intention to seek and find SEX? You mention "dating," which not everyone associates as leading directly to sex. Or, was your declaration only the leverage to bring her to the bargaining table? I'm not advocating for infidelity in a broad sense. I believed in marriage for over 30 years. But, in our case, the marriage vows have been shattered a thousand times or more over decades by her refusals. When being refused, what exactly am I cheating on? I think at some point I will pursue the ask or declare route. I'm not sure that makes sense quite yet. I'm also not sure I'm ready to outsource either. Still rolling it around in my mind. Can you clarify what you intended with your declarations and did your wife understand it as a negotiation tool, or did she fear losing your fidelity in the bedroom? The dating was to find out whether other women would think of me in that way. The intention was to have them as intimate companions because I assumed my wife was unwilling to be. The declaration was for my intention to outsource my love life. She could participate if she wished, but we would not be exclusive anymore. I think she understood that, but I'd have to ask, and the whole topic is quite unpleasant for her, understandably. My words were, "I plan to have physical intimacy with someone next year. I hope it's you. But it won't be nobody." That would have been rather clear, I would think. I feel confident she believed I would add a lover to my/our life. Good, because it was no bluff. I had every expectation she'd either divorce me, or look the other way. Her reset was a total surprise. Baza and others will warn against making any bluffs in this regard. If you talk of divorce, or this, informed outsourcing, be ready for mayhem, and I was. It would have been smart to have legal contingency plans if Mrs. MirrorOrchid had pulled the pin on the grenade. I didn't. Also important, my wife had been seeing a therapist at the time and my dating came up in conversation. The therapist had me in for a session and I defended my actions. This shortly before the reset. I figure the therapist asked, so...he seems to think you don't couple much. Is he right? Followed by a bit of a revelation for teh therapist and some stark advice for my wife as to the inevitable result if she didn't change something. Not every spouse is going to be able to check themselves with an objective third party this way. You would be cheating on your promise to Forsake All Others. That oath made outsourcing distasteful and unwanted for me too. I've said it numerous places, but I'll be the broken record here too. You don't get to drop any word from that vow. It isn't FORSAKE ALL. You may not forsake your spouse, or you break your vow. If that's okay, it's just as valid to only FORSAKE OTHERS. (as long as you forsake some people, you're golden.) If the two of you care to renegotiate those vows, that's just recognizing you made a promise you could not keep. It sucks, but it happens. You revisit it. You explain your inability with regret and ask what else you might work out. Refusers generally just drop a word and obey their new, preferred two word vow, expecting the refused to keep all three. In some couples, both spouses drop the word OTHERS. That's called counter-refusing, and it may be fair, but it ain't better.
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Post by sweetplumeria on Nov 22, 2022 3:40:17 GMT -5
Well, I read through the conversation. Even here in this place I get nervous to speak the truth. Perhaps that is why I have been able to outsource so long.
I really liked the comment about being deprived. It feels all too accurate.
Baza always has great advice, worth following.
Technically you got a lot of sound advice here already. I don't feel representative of the average woman, let's get that out of the way. I have however done some things. Successful locations: university, local club, x boyfriend, and dare I say it, Ashley Madison. I do think AM girls are a rare breed but I gave myself a Valentines that one year...
I must have had some invisible side of myself open up because I began to be approached.
I recomend married AF partners who also have risks. Be wary of traps. Be open to the possibility that someone is in a similar situation as yourself. Use separate everything for correspondence this can be a new email only for this purpose, apps for things like texting or a false phone number, many use a burner phone, and don't get sloppy. Your AP might be next door, in a dating app, or at a place you frequent.
Good luck. Remember: Delete Delete Delete
or face the truth, what ever it is at any given moment (have you just only had coffee, is she pregnant, did you get an STI, will AP get mad and destroy your life???)
In case Baza needs ammunition I might add a local cop was playing around and after getting a promotion to detective, he decides to end things with AP. She doesn't want to stop. She prints off all text messages etc proof that he had sex while in uniform and he lost his career.
Sex is weilded as a weapon all the time.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Nov 22, 2022 9:10:26 GMT -5
I used the sites but will say it is easier for women than men but not impossible I obviously met men there. AFF is not free for women anymore so less women but I guess if they are on there they are serious. Ashley Madison seemed less sketchy. It has been years since I've been on either. If you don't want a divorce it's safer to have a married woman in the same boat. I only did long term and was very successful.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 22, 2022 9:33:18 GMT -5
blunder8: "Inching hell! I'm ready to go. Can anyone recommend sites that are good for friends with benefits situation? Ones to avoid? What to watch out for? I don't really want to post a picture with a profile....that internet thing is forever......but is it needed to get matched up?"
Given that there's an overabundance of men on hook-up sites, why would a woman chose to meet or even correspond with a guy who posts no picture? There are plenty of other fish for her in the sea -- fish that she can see and evaluate based on their looks before she proceeds to check out other things about them.
Keep in mind, too, that women have to be much more cautious when deciding to correspond or meet with strangers. Women's lives literally are on the line.
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Post by blunder8 on Nov 22, 2022 11:58:43 GMT -5
blunder8: "Inching hell! I'm ready to go. Can anyone recommend sites that are good for friends with benefits situation? Ones to avoid? What to watch out for? I don't really want to post a picture with a profile....that internet thing is forever......but is it needed to get matched up?" Given that there's an overabundance of men on hook-up sites, why would a woman chose to meet or even correspond with a guy who posts no picture? There are plenty of other fish for her in the sea -- fish that she can see and evaluate based on their looks before she proceeds to check out other things about them. Keep in mind, too, that women have to be much more cautious when deciding to correspond or meet with strangers. Women's lives literally are on the line. Yeah, agree. That's why I need to think about this more. I'm cautious by nature and I don't want to be scammed, catfished, or outed just for looking for a fwb online. Question out of ignorance: does no one post a profile with what they want, find others looking for same, and then say "let's communicate and if we match we can send each other a picture"? Are people online really oriented toward a picture first, especially when pictures can be borrowed, heavily edited, or outright fake? OK, i guess i know the answer to that. People looking to get laid need to know their potential partner doesn't have a pointed head, missing teeth, and weigh 400 pounds. (hey, i'm not doing too bad on that criteria) Cautious and looking for strange online are not things that fit together well.
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Post by blunder8 on Nov 22, 2022 12:03:26 GMT -5
Well, I read through the conversation. Even here in this place I get nervous to speak the truth. Perhaps that is why I have been able to outsource so long. I really liked the comment about being deprived. It feels all too accurate. Baza always has great advice, worth following. Technically you got a lot of sound advice here already. I don't feel representative of the average woman, let's get that out of the way. I have however done some things. Successful locations: university, local club, x boyfriend, and dare I say it, Ashley Madison. I do think AM girls are a rare breed but I gave myself a Valentines that one year... I must have had some invisible side of myself open up because I began to be approached. I recomend married AF partners who also have risks. Be wary of traps. Be open to the possibility that someone is in a similar situation as yourself. Use separate everything for correspondence this can be a new email only for this purpose, apps for things like texting or a false phone number, many use a burner phone, and don't get sloppy. Your AP might be next door, in a dating app, or at a place you frequent. Good luck. Remember: Delete Delete Delete or face the truth, what ever it is at any given moment (have you just only had coffee, is she pregnant, did you get an STI, will AP get mad and destroy your life???) In case Baza needs ammunition I might add a local cop was playing around and after getting a promotion to detective, he decides to end things with AP. She doesn't want to stop. She prints off all text messages etc proof that he had sex while in uniform and he lost his career. Sex is weilded as a weapon all the time. Thanks. Good advice. I have a separate email account set up that i only open up in incognito mode. Online seems like an uphill climb for a married guy in his upper 50s.
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