|
Post by theexplorer on Nov 15, 2021 17:45:37 GMT -5
Apocrypha, There is a great deal of wisdom in what you write. You described over a decade of my marriage perfectly!!! You articulated my wife's viewpoint quite clearly. I had not considered it exactly as you described. Many, Many thanks for posting her viewpoint so clearly!!
Near the end of that miserable, sexless decade, I had a conversation with a retired marriage counselor about my marriage. After going through what I saw as the problems in the marriage, the counselor told me, "Your wife is NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU!" That statement stunned me! I couldn't even talk for a few minutes! After considering it, I had to agree that the counselor was 100% correct! My wife did NOT desire me. She was NOT attracted to me. She did NOT love me. She did NOT want me!!
The counselor advised me get very serious about self improvement. Self improvement sets one up for a better relationship with someone else. There is the (slight!) possibility that becoming a more attractive person will attract the refusing marriage partner as well.
A few weeks later, my wife was surprised when she discovered I was lifting weights again. She started snooping to see if I was having an affair. I told her I was trying to become a better man. She was uncomfortable with my self improvement plan. After a while she decided it was a passing fad and went back to being her typical unloving, unhappy self. She ignored all my self improvement efforts after that!!
It was only when my wife realized that my self improvement efforts were part of a much larger plan to leave her that she decided to participate in the marriage again. Only time will tell if she continues down this path or goes back to her natural inclination to be an unloving woman.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Nov 16, 2021 10:10:26 GMT -5
Apocrypha, There is a great deal of wisdom in what you write. You described over a decade of my marriage perfectly!!! You articulated my wife's viewpoint quite clearly. I had not considered it exactly as you described. Many, Many thanks for posting her viewpoint so clearly!! Near the end of that miserable, sexless decade, I had a conversation with a retired marriage counselor about my marriage. After going through what I saw as the problems in the marriage, the counselor told me, "Your wife is NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU!" That statement stunned me! I couldn't even talk for a few minutes! After considering it, I had to agree that the counselor was 100% correct! My wife did NOT desire me. She was NOT attracted to me. She did NOT love me. She did NOT want me!! The counselor advised me get very serious about self improvement. Self improvement sets one up for a better relationship with someone else. There is the (slight!) possibility that becoming a more attractive person will attract the refusing marriage partner as well. A few weeks later, my wife was surprised when she discovered I was lifting weights again. She started snooping to see if I was having an affair. I told her I was trying to become a better man. She was uncomfortable with my self improvement plan. After a while she decided it was a passing fad and went back to being her typical unloving, unhappy self. She ignored all my self improvement efforts after that!! It was only when my wife realized that my self improvement efforts were part of a much larger plan to leave her that she decided to participate in the marriage again. Only time will tell if she continues down this path or goes back to her natural inclination to be an unloving woman. I talk about this a fair amount because it's one of those things that's ridiculously hard to see when hidden in plain sight, and might prove useful to know. Look closely at the part I bolded. This strikes me as an illustration of how monumentally difficult it is to break out of old ways of framing things, even when you've been told, see the evidence, and have suffered the consequences for a decade, and when you are knowingly looking right at it. You all agreed that this was about how she feels about you as a person, but in the last second, it reverts back to instead be about the kind of person she is. Contempt. It's so hard to leave. I think in my case, as with when I decided to choose to love her as a partner and wife, one must also choose to leave. This is the I'm staying forum, and you are still staying - so the observation of the quality of attention to your improvements and the focus on the kind of person she is rather than the kind of person YOU are - is likely a strong strategy to continue the present deal (which might be a totally valid choice). I think your observation about what happens when people embark on self improvement is an important one. It's a thing I noticed when I decided to take my health a fitness seriously and make significant changes. I noticed that my obese friends and family became shockingly unsupportive of my diet, lifestyle and exercise routines - when their own were clearly visible and not working for them. Though I never inflicted what I did on others, I found that they offered nothing but warnings and discouragement, even going so far as to suggest I "hate fat people". Which is weird to me because I struggle hard to not be fat (when I was fat), and don't see myself, or fat, as a tribe to be a part of, but rather, a temporary condition. When I embarked upon my "year of saying Yes" in my post-separation year, I ended up expanding my life and skills and doing some things that I was CERTAIN my ex-wife would have been so proud of me doing. I took up singing in a group (I'd been too shy to sing happy birthday), got better, which opened more doors and I ended up singing to thousands at major metropolitan venues, backing headliner acts and being part of an opening act. I recall being devastated when my ex couldn't muster any encouragement at any of this. But I also paid attention to it and my own lingering need for her to witness and approve that. I don't feel that anymore, and it's liberating.
|
|
|
Post by theexplorer on Nov 22, 2021 19:18:42 GMT -5
I talk about this a fair amount because it's one of those things that's ridiculously hard to see when hidden in plain sight, and might prove useful to know. Look closely at the part I bolded. This strikes me as an illustration of how monumentally difficult it is to break out of old ways of framing things, even when you've been told, see the evidence, and have suffered the consequences for a decade, and when you are knowingly looking right at it. You all agreed that this was about how she feels about you as a person, but in the last second, it reverts back to instead be about the kind of person she is. Contempt.
I'm not real clear on what you mean in the above quote. Are you saying that she is not an unloving woman, she just doesn't love me?
My preference is to remain in the marriage. As time passes, I have had occasional second thoughts on staying. At this point, I'm still trying everything that is possible to make the marriage work. If the marriage is hopeless, I want to leave knowing I did everything possible to make it work.
The marriage has improved considerably in the last year. There are still some significant issues though. I don't want to try guessing the ultimate fate of the marriage at this point.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Nov 24, 2021 10:52:10 GMT -5
I talk about this a fair amount because it's one of those things that's ridiculously hard to see when hidden in plain sight, and might prove useful to know. Look closely at the part I bolded. This strikes me as an illustration of how monumentally difficult it is to break out of old ways of framing things, even when you've been told, see the evidence, and have suffered the consequences for a decade, and when you are knowingly looking right at it. You all agreed that this was about how she feels about you as a person, but in the last second, it reverts back to instead be about the kind of person she is. Contempt. I'm not real clear on what you mean in the above quote. Are you saying that she is not an unloving woman, she just doesn't love me?
My preference is to remain in the marriage. As time passes, I have had occasional second thoughts on staying. At this point, I'm still trying everything that is possible to make the marriage work. If the marriage is hopeless, I want to leave knowing I did everything possible to make it work.
The marriage has improved considerably in the last year. There are still some significant issues though. I don't want to try guessing the ultimate fate of the marriage at this point.
I don't know - there's no way for me to know that. I'm suggesting that it's a possibility to consider - and it is one that I have found to be generally true, including with my own situation. I've noticed that it is an incredibly difficult thing for most people to see when they are in it. Almost, literally, everyone would prefer to remain in their marriage - including those who left. They left because their preference did not seem tenable with the relationship they had. I also felt, embarking on the post-affair and then post-open epochs of my marriage, that I wanted to do everything possible to make it work. And it did seem to improve for a while. For practical purposes, I think the best course of action is likely to focus more on what you are doing to improve yourself and your life, for you. I'm not totally sour on various forms of ethical non-monogamy - but what I found in mine - and frequently in the "community" - was that fundamental dysfunctions and disconnections that existed within the one relationship format carried through into the open relationship and played out there too, eventually. Harder to spot at first because everything was unfamiliar, but they showed up there eventually. The root issue wasn't the sex (sexual aversion was a result, not a cause, of our trouble). The biggest thing was, as long as I kept framing this all as HER problem - the way SHE was - a difficulty with sex in general etc - rather than an accurate expression of how she felt about ME - I remained stuck at her side (when she really didn't want to be married to me). The shift in perspective from HER dysfunction - to instead be about OUR suitability as married partners - changed things.
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Nov 27, 2021 7:05:10 GMT -5
Opening a marriage tests how healthy a marriage is. If it's not healthy, no reading/learning was done on opening,or one of the parties doesn't get a handle on jealousy (think- unfriendly/unrealistic rigid rules) it's doomed. I really thought for a moment that it didn't matter if he left...l deserved sex. Then I caught myself being mean and not even coming home. Then I dialed it way down and didn't have any rules so I made up rules that would show my husband that I really did love him and Respect the marriage and made sure he was at the top of the hierarchy.
The one thing my mentor told me not to do was buy into promises of sex from my H and drop my new beau!
|
|
|
Post by theexplorer on Nov 30, 2021 17:41:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the additional explanation, Apocrypha. I understand it better now.
Jerri, Do you have a link to your story? Do you mind telling us about this mentor for your open marriage? Who are they? Where did you find such a person? etc.
|
|
|
Post by catlover on Nov 30, 2021 23:18:51 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Dec 1, 2021 6:14:33 GMT -5
If I may? I'd offer you a plethora or cobbled streets and forest paths to stumble over. iliasm.org/post/129671A list of polyamory podcasts is at the bottom. You can pick a topic of interest to really get the info you want. There are over a thousand podcast episodes to choose from. Your question has been answered by someone. Four mentors here at ILIASM might include: Baza - because of his recommendations that you make sure you brace for impact, legally, if you even bring the subject up. Some refusers can go volcanic when you hint at escape. Apocrypha with a number of landmines to watch out for. Jerri with some marriage survival tips if you actually launch. (she's not intimate with her husband, and had only one FWB at a time, so she's not, technically, polyamorous [yet]) And I had a few experiences breaking the news to my wife (but I'm limited in my advice because my wife reset before I actually consummated polyamory). On a side note, I was polyamorous for a year or so in the mid 90's, before I married Mrs. MirrorOrchid.
|
|
|
Post by Handy on Dec 1, 2021 16:52:37 GMT -5
|
|