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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 9:28:41 GMT -5
The primary argument of a refuser: refuse to acknowledge the importance of sex. Belittle it. Refuse to VALIDATE your needs. And this is why it is impossible to validate your need to leave when you finally do leave. And this is why we all need to leave, if at all possible. I like that. "... it is impossible to validate your need to leave ...." That captures a lot for me. I recognize my need for validation is an extreme hindrance to a well lived life. If I can at least commit myself to the idea that uncertainty is OK, if not shake the need to be validated in any way, i might just find freedom. Words you will never hear from your spouse... "You're right, you have a sexual need I can't fulfill. You need to leave and find your own happiness" Yet this is what many people here seem to require in order to extricate themselves from their SM shithole marriage. Especially newcomers here.
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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 9:32:23 GMT -5
How my spouse typically invalidated my need...
"all you ever think about is sex"
In fact, I never even asked more often than recent past suggested I might get some. That quickly became once a month. I was never that guy that pestered his wife every night until he got lucky. I couldn't take the constant humiliation. The rejection.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 6, 2016 9:32:27 GMT -5
"...so is your self-worth really *that* tied into your sex life?" So began her latest meltdown a few nights ago after I finally unloaded about the lack of sex and intimacy in our couples counseling. Highlights of this one: -you've been working late and choosing work over me (my work is very project-driven by clients, and there have been a lot of big deadlines this month. ) -I didn't come to bed one night (she wasn't feeling well, passed out in the middle of the bed, I slept in the guest room so as not to disturb her) -I've not been "making myself available" when i get home from work in the evenings (I don't come sit with her while she's lying in bed or on the couch watching cartoons or reality TV) The funny thing is, she's slept on the couch every night for the last week, has missed many more events than me on a regular basis because of work, and gives off a great vibe of "I'm in for the night" when I get home and she's already in bed, in her nightclothes, watching mindless bad TV. Another example of DARVO. Deny,Attack, and Reverse, Victim, and Offender. Once you start to show that it has no affect on you, that you are going to be your true self, she may increase her DARVO, or detach her self even more. Your month to go could easily last much longer. Take control of your finances by removing small amounts on a regular basis. Stash it. If she is frivolously wasting your shared income,start dividing it now. Save it don't spend it. Later it can be divided in half. (50% is better than nothing) or spend it on daily living expenses for yourself. Either way it shows, this is what you need to live on, or you are the responsible one when it comes to handling finances.
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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 9:37:09 GMT -5
Our refusers don't just not want to have sex. They strongly want to not have sex. That gets glossed over here because it brings into sunlight the idea that they are strongly averse to us. In any physical way. That is a bitter pill to swallow.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 6, 2016 9:40:00 GMT -5
I like that. "... it is impossible to validate your need to leave ...." That captures a lot for me. I recognize my need for validation is an extreme hindrance to a well lived life. If I can at least commit myself to the idea that uncertainty is OK, if not shake the need to be validated in any way, i might just find freedom. Words you will never hear from your spouse... "You're right, you have a sexual need I can't fulfill. You need to leave and find your own happiness" Yet this is what many people here seem to require in order to extricate themselves from their SM shithole marriage. Especially newcomers here. I heard similar words from my therapist, "you went above and beyond to try to save your marriage, your wife put forth zero effort." Then there was, " your wife is asexual, I predict she will never again want another man". Very helpful for me from someone who worked with both of us separate, and together, and all six of the kids.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 6, 2016 9:47:11 GMT -5
Our refusers don't just not want to have sex. They strongly want to not have sex. That gets glossed over here because it brings into sunlight the idea that they are strongly averse to us. In any physical way. That is a bitter pill to swallow. I can't put a percentage on it, but the numbers appear very high that a manipulative controlling refuser, enforces these same traits in every aspect of their lives. Not just intimacy, and sex. Once the definition the trait is defined and accepted by the victim the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) lifts. The "why factor" will always be there. Something to learn to give a short few moments of thought, and dismiss. "no longer your problem".
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 6, 2016 9:53:42 GMT -5
Our refusers don't just not want to have sex. They strongly want to not have sex. That gets glossed over here because it brings into sunlight the idea that they are strongly averse to us. In any physical way. That is a bitter pill to swallow. Maybe worse by half. I vacillate between knowledge that my wife strongly wants to not have sex and the suspicion that she also strongly wants me to not have sex. I then try to figure out how and when my punishment (for whatever i have done wrong) will be over. Which is a truly worthless exercise.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 6, 2016 9:55:33 GMT -5
Words you will never hear from your spouse... "You're right, you have a sexual need I can't fulfill. You need to leave and find your own happiness" Yet this is what many people here seem to require in order to extricate themselves from their SM shithole marriage. Especially newcomers here. I heard similar words from my therapist, "you went above and beyond to try to save your marriage, your wife put forth zero effort." Then there was, " your wife is asexual, I predict she will never again want another man". Very helpful for me from someone who worked with both of us separate, and together, and all six of the kids. I am glad that you found a therapist of some real benefit. If I may ask, was it a difficult search?
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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 9:58:22 GMT -5
The primary argument of a refuser: refuse to acknowledge the importance of sex. Belittle it. Refuse to VALIDATE your needs. And this is why it is impossible to validate your need to leave when you finally do leave. And this is why we all need to leave, if at all possible. I like that. "... it is impossible to validate your need to leave ...." That captures a lot for me. I recognize my need for validation is an extreme hindrance to a well lived life. If I can at least commit myself to the idea that uncertainty is OK, if not shake the need to be validated in any way, i might just find freedom. Your spouse has kept you in a miserable marriage for years, maybe decades, by simply refusing to validate your needs. It really is that simple.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Dec 6, 2016 10:01:58 GMT -5
Me: yes, my self-worth is very tied to my sex life, gender identity, & ability to express the sexual part of my spirit & personality. I am a little sorry that when I was younger, I used to think sex was "extra" & a bonus. It is not. Living sexless, I have learned just how deeply I need an outlet for (& feedback from) my sexual nature. This is not shallow. But it is new information for me. And maybe for my partner. Sex is not a PS on a relationship. It's an integral quarter (as in 4 parts: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual). Sex is a thread through all 4 parts if I have/find the relationship that's really right for me. I didn't know this before & hide it from my Ex. I just didn't KNOW until more recently. I am a sexual person and I decline to accept any shame for that attribute.
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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 10:04:17 GMT -5
Our refusers don't just not want to have sex. They strongly want to not have sex. That gets glossed over here because it brings into sunlight the idea that they are strongly averse to us. In any physical way. That is a bitter pill to swallow. Maybe worse by half. I vacillate between knowledge that my wife strongly wants to not have sex and the suspicion that she also strongly wants me to not have sex. I then try to figure out how and when my punishment (for whatever i have done wrong) will be over. Which is a truly worthless exercise. Now you are bringing up the 2nd most frequently heard demand of our refusers: "I don't want you but no one else can have you either" The correct response that I don't think is ever (or rarely) used": "OK, but celibacy is not an option for me. What are we going to do about that. We have to do something because celibacy is simply not an option" That would allow you to take control over your needs, rather than letting your controlling, manipulative spouse define your needs and behaviors. Unfortunately, our culture STRONGLY favors the refuser here, which is why marriage is such a totally stupid thing to enter into. The marital contract, as interpreted by our culture, is simply too flawed.
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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 10:07:53 GMT -5
Me: yes, my self-worth is very tied to my sex life, gender identity, & ability to express the sexual part of my spirit & personality. I am a little sorry that when I was younger, I used to think sex was "extra" & a bonus. It is not. Living sexless, I have learned just how deeply I need an outlet for (& feedback from) my sexual nature. This is not shallow. But it is new information for me. And maybe for my partner. Sex is not a PS on a relationship. It's an integral quarter (as in 4 parts: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual). Sex is a thread through all 4 parts if I have/find the relationship that's really right for me. I didn't know this before & hide it from my Ex. I just didn't KNOW until more recently. I am a sexual person and I decline to accept any shame for that attribute. So true. If I had fully understood this I would have been out of my marriage within 90 days of the wedding. And I actually came to that decision at that time but chickened out.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 6, 2016 10:14:32 GMT -5
Maybe worse by half. I vacillate between knowledge that my wife strongly wants to not have sex and the suspicion that she also strongly wants me to not have sex. I then try to figure out how and when my punishment (for whatever i have done wrong) will be over. Which is a truly worthless exercise. Now you are bringing up the 2nd most frequently heard demand of our refusers: "I don't want you but no one else can have you either" The correct response that I don't think is ever (or rarely) used": "OK, but celibacy is not an option for me. What are we going to do about that. We have to do something because celibacy is simply not an option" That would allow you to take control over your needs, rather than letting your controlling, manipulative spouse defines your needs and behaviors. Unfortunately, our culture STRONGLY favors the refuser here, which is why marriage is such a totally stupid thing to enter into. The marital contract, as interpreted by our culture, is simply too flawed. Amen. I am categorically opposed to marriage. Hindsight, 20/20 and all that.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 6, 2016 10:16:01 GMT -5
Me: yes, my self-worth is very tied to my sex life, gender identity, & ability to express the sexual part of my spirit & personality. I am a little sorry that when I was younger, I used to think sex was "extra" & a bonus. It is not. Living sexless, I have learned just how deeply I need an outlet for (& feedback from) my sexual nature. This is not shallow. But it is new information for me. And maybe for my partner. Sex is not a PS on a relationship. It's an integral quarter (as in 4 parts: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual). Sex is a thread through all 4 parts if I have/find the relationship that's really right for me. I didn't know this before & hide it from my Ex. I just didn't KNOW until more recently. I am a sexual person and I decline to accept any shame for that attribute. So true. If I had fully understood this I would have been out of my marriage within 90 days of the wedding. And I actually came to that decision at that time but chickened out. I knew I had made a mistake within about 10 days, but I thought things would improve. But somehow, here i am.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 6, 2016 10:19:18 GMT -5
Me: yes, my self-worth is very tied to my sex life, gender identity, & ability to express the sexual part of my spirit & personality. I am a little sorry that when I was younger, I used to think sex was "extra" & a bonus. It is not. Living sexless, I have learned just how deeply I need an outlet for (& feedback from) my sexual nature. This is not shallow. But it is new information for me. And maybe for my partner. Sex is not a PS on a relationship. It's an integral quarter (as in 4 parts: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual). Sex is a thread through all 4 parts if I have/find the relationship that's really right for me. I didn't know this before & hide it from my Ex. I just didn't KNOW until more recently. I am a sexual person and I decline to accept any shame for that attribute. That is beautifully stated. I buried all of this (ie, my true self) for almost 30 years. I knew better, yet days become weeks become years until one day we are dead. I don't want to deal with this prison any longer. Freedom!
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