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Post by hanamidreaming on Apr 18, 2022 15:16:58 GMT -5
Hi, folks.
TLDR, over 20+ years of marriage and deployments, push-pull sexual timing with tears and fights became once-a-year timing with rejection and resentment became a 4-year drought and full-on verklemptness. How, when you’ve been silent about it for years, do you broach “the talk”? (The “I need” talk, not the “I’m leaving” talk.)
I’m terrified of it to the point of inaction (sleeping dogs and all that.) Some of it’s the logistics, avoiding a fight with the kids in the house, but also avoiding being abandoned at iHop or 300 miles from home because I engineered for privacy but he took the car in spite. Some of it’s the potentially nuclear response if the ego gets involved. Some of it’s the risk of breaking something that might have been beautiful.
I’ve found the post with the formula for the talk, and it’s very helpful. I just don’t know how to “man up” and go through with it.
And no, he doesn’t hit, if you are wondering whether physical abuse is the source of my anxiety. He’s rash, and tactical rather than strategic, but pretty principled about some things.
(edited for typos)
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scooter2u
New Member
Married 32 years and down to sex once monthly, at best
Posts: 3
Age Range: 66-70
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Post by scooter2u on Apr 18, 2022 16:54:22 GMT -5
Be aware that once the word "divorce" is introduced into conversation it often becomes a self fulfilled prophecy. Sometimes taking months or more to fully germinate, it still never goes away.
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Post by steve1968 on Apr 18, 2022 18:15:41 GMT -5
I don't know how to do it either, so I suffer in silence mostly. I did ask her to come to bed with me once a week, not necessarily for intercourse, but to hold each other and talk. She's a night-owl and I'm not. So, far that hasn't worked out well. She may have done it twice in the maybe 6 weeks since I asked. "It" means laying in bed in nightgown, which beats the recliner she usually sleeps in. Most nights, she's too pissed off about some insignificant BS at bedtime to want any contact.
The forum has helped me understand that you'd best not push it until you are truly ready to split (physically and emotionally). Otherwise, it just can be perceived as an empty threat. I get it, the high probability of a freak-out response and all the unknowns that may generate causes inertia/inaction on your part. I was seriously dreaming about stepping out awhile back, but we're together constantly and the response if I were discovered (which would be likely) would be most awful.
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Post by hanamidreaming on Apr 18, 2022 18:50:46 GMT -5
. The forum has helped me understand that you'd best not push it until you are truly ready to split (physically and emotionally). Otherwise, it just can be perceived as an empty threat. Understood. I don’t do ultimatums as a power play; I don’t really do power plays at all. Historically, I was the door slam type, no preamble, just gone, but in those days I was young, blithe, and had very little to lose.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 18, 2022 19:58:58 GMT -5
...The forum has helped me understand that you'd best not push it until you are truly ready to split (physically and emotionally). Otherwise, it just can be perceived as an empty threat. I get it, the high probability of a freak-out response and all the unknowns that may generate causes inertia/inaction on your part. I was seriously dreaming about stepping out awhile back, but we're together constantly and the response if I were discovered (which would be likely) would be most awful. Pretty good. I'd rephrase it as "You're ok if you must split." "Ready" makes it sound like you want it to happen. Plenty of fed up ILIASM members have come to that level without reaching the lower level of, "If it happens, so be it, but it'll be my spouse's choice, and not a smart one." Given the spouse's possible invocation of divorce, preparing for that possibility strikes many ILIASM folk as wise. As such, one can prepare for that outcome by beginning an income stream, building a social network of family and friends, and planning activity to fill time that might have been spent in marital company. If one is planning to unilaterally open teh marriage, you'll want to make sure that such action does not produce a negative result in divorce court. The spouse can claim to be fine with it, then hold it up as justification to shirk responsibility. I'm not sure a court will take consent, or acknowledgement into account nor whether such adultery is fully understandable. Some of the measures taken can be positive, healthy things to do even if everything about your marriage was healthy and happy. These steps should only cause issues with a spouse highly suspicious of any significant change. Which may suit Mr. Hanamidreaming to a T, given the flavor of paranoia we've been given thus far. The controlling behavior, barring spouses from engaging in ordinary platonic behavior, engaging society more fully, can be a compelling reason for divorce. Given Hanamidreaming's great degree of freedom while he's off on a tour, this may be a matter of being the docile, quiet spouse for a short while and resuming real life during teh next tour. Certainly disruptive if this chosen life grows more appealing than the charade, but that's a bridge to cross when you come to it and it stokes courage to make tough decisions. You have something to fight for at that point.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Apr 18, 2022 22:40:56 GMT -5
What is it you want to accomplish with the talk?
To vent? Then make him listen to you. Tell him its not a negotiation. Tell him you jist need him to listen.
Empathy? It doesn't sound like you'll get it. What would be the point of the talk?
Something else?
I'm not trying to point you in one direction or another but I am suggesting asking yourself hard questions to get to the gist of what you really want. That will then provide clues as to your next steps.
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Post by hanamidreaming on Apr 19, 2022 9:31:43 GMT -5
What is it you want to accomplish with the talk? To vent? Then make him listen to you. Tell him its not a negotiation. Tell him you jist need him to listen. Empathy? It doesn't sound like you'll get it. What would be the point of the talk? Something else? I'm not trying to point you in one direction or another but I am suggesting asking yourself hard questions to get to the gist of what you really want. That will then provide clues as to your next steps. If everybody in the room were a “rational adult”, I’d say: To identify that there’s a problem, that I’m aware there is a problem, and that my preferred solution is not to pretend it doesn’t exist. A statement of position and aims. Not while I’m feeling the sting of a particular rejection, not while I’m emotional and might give the appearance of manipulation, not while he’s emotionally engaged and taking every word as criticism. Avoiding my door-slam-and-no-explanation tendencies. And then see what happens next. Nobody in the room is a rational adult, though, hence the hesitance/fear. I saw a K-drama recently where two people drew up a 2-year contract for marriage; she needed housing while building her career and he wanted help with the mortgage. Because it was tv, it turned into love after she left, and he ended up selling the house. Okay, fine, tv, whatever. It just made me wonder if marriage might be improved by a little more “contract” and a little less “soulmate” in the narrative—clearer communication of expectations at the outset (what does “honoring” look like? Never mind those folks who roll their own vows.) And maybe a regular review interval for the terms.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Apr 19, 2022 12:08:48 GMT -5
The fear/hesitation is your mindspeak talking back to you. That maybe its not a good idea yet. I thinks its valuable to recognize and aknowledge to yourself that either you and/or he are not ready to have the discussion in a productive fashion. He may never be ready (another consideration you may need to weigh) Maybe iterate your thought process a few times on your own and see if you get closer. Write it out and read it a day later with fresh eyes to see what you think. Maybe talk to a therapist if that is accessible to you. One suggestion is to approach "the talk" in baby steps in an iterative manner to make it a little more palatable. Plant a seed in some way and guage his reaction. But put some bounds and limits on how much to chew on along the way lest there be the temptation to slam the door wide open when only the peeping through a door crack with the chain on was intended. Be specific. Something like "hey, such and such has been weighing on my mind lately, and Ive been wondering if you might have the same concerns?" And then decide together if you can set some time aside to discuss in bite sized chunks. What is it you want to accomplish with the talk? To vent? Then make him listen to you. Tell him its not a negotiation. Tell him you jist need him to listen. Empathy? It doesn't sound like you'll get it. What would be the point of the talk? Something else? I'm not trying to point you in one direction or another but I am suggesting asking yourself hard questions to get to the gist of what you really want. That will then provide clues as to your next steps. If everybody in the room were a “rational adult”, I’d say: To identify that there’s a problem, that I’m aware there is a problem, and that my preferred solution is not to pretend it doesn’t exist. A statement of position and aims. Not while I’m feeling the sting of a particular rejection, not while I’m emotional and might give the appearance of manipulation, not while he’s emotionally engaged and taking every word as criticism. Avoiding my door-slam-and-no-explanation tendencies. And then see what happens next. Nobody in the room is a rational adult, though, hence the hesitance/fear. I saw a K-drama recently where two people drew up a 2-year contract for marriage; she needed housing while building her career and he wanted help with the mortgage. Because it was tv, it turned into love after she left, and he ended up selling the house. Okay, fine, tv, whatever. It just made me wonder if marriage might be improved by a little more “contract” and a little less “soulmate” in the narrative—clearer communication of expectations at the outset (what does “honoring” look like? Never mind those folks who roll their own vows.) And maybe a regular review interval for the terms.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 20, 2022 8:22:03 GMT -5
Four years celibate. Ok, I'm with others here: you need to start by considering your intent. I'd be wary of framing that intent around "sex with my husband, who I have not been with in four years" I'd begin from a standpoint of curiosity first. Genuine curiosity. Observe that the two of you have not had sex in four years. Ask what he thinks about that. Don't get ahead of yourselves and entrench into something defensive or provocative. Have a conversation about the facts on the ground with intent to understand, and make it as easy as possible.
Write down the answers that you both establish.
It will likely come down to a chaffe of "life is hard" (and it's true, it always is, including for people who want sex with their spouse).
Then it may become more pointed in your direction - summarizing the same faults you had when you used to have sex. Getting warmer now - because this acknowledges a whiff of the personal resentment or content.
You might acknowledge that it's hard to be celibate for four years, and maybe ask how he copes. How do you cope yourself? Is he celibate? You might get more defensiveness here.
The trick with all of this is to really underline your intent to get the facts on the ground before anyone does anything. To get understanding, and to frame the relationship you have vs the relationship you'd pretend at and be disappointed. What is the nature of your relationship together?
You might then bend it to ask, in general - objectively - what is a marriage? Maybe write it down and present it to each other. Are they close? Do either of you believe that the relationship format you have today is what you agreed to at the wedding? Are you both living in a marriage?
It just seems to me that 4 years is a long time to be celibate in a marriage and is evidence itself of the marriage being something to be referred to as past tense. How is what you are doing now different from a separated cohabitating couple (many spouses have an in between period in a separation, before anyone has moved anywhere).
How can the two of you be the best version of whatever you are, while leaving room in your lives for the kind of intimacy you want? Approaching these things with an air of genuine empathy and partnership might not cure the problems, but it might make uncomfortable truths easier to say, and that's a good foundation from which to build a real life. It doesn't all have to happen in one conversation.
I have never seen an ultimatum conversation about this work out with a sexually intimate relationship restored. This might at least point you toward some understanding of the situation if you are lucky. It may end up that once you acknowledge these truths and sit with them, that actions may seem necessary. But I wouldn't worry about that now.
I realize that telling you or anyone else this is unlikely to change the conversation you will likely have, nor the hope that you have. What's most likely is that the conversation happens like everyone's does: "I hate that we don't have sex and I want it or something bad will happen" "Fine then! Let's go! Satisfied?" followed by reset sex for a couple weeks and rinse and repeat.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 21, 2022 14:13:29 GMT -5
Sounds like you would be exposing the elephant in the room that no one else fails to see? And that they will continue to deny is there.
Do it for yourself.
It would give you that extra tipping point, the final nail in the coffin, that so many of us needed.
You will find yourself going back to your spouces "answers" ( vague- yet loaded with hidden meaning) as much needed clarification that you made the right choice for yourself.
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Post by hanamidreaming on Apr 21, 2022 21:37:34 GMT -5
Four years celibate. …I have never seen an ultimatum conversation about this work out with a sexually intimate relationship restored. This might at least point you toward some understanding of the situation if you are lucky. It may end up that once you acknowledge these truths and sit with them, that actions may seem necessary. But I wouldn't worry about that now. I realize that telling you or anyone else this is unlikely to change the conversation you will likely have, nor the hope that you have. What's most likely is that the conversation happens like everyone's does: "I hate that we don't have sex and I want it or something bad will happen" "Fine then! Let's go! Satisfied?" followed by reset sex for a couple weeks and rinse and repeat. I don’t do ultimatums, never have, which is one of the problems—people expect them from me, don’t get them, and think I’m… malleable. Most of them never heard the door. This one would, though. I take your point about establishing the facts of the matter. I don’t know if a reset would happen or not; I can’t tell whether I am valuable anymore. I am quite clearly being catered to; dinners out and taking over the dishes and his constant “I love you, I miss you” when he’s away. I wish I was the kind of person who would let the words not be overshadowed by the number of years “away” has been the voluntary standard.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 22, 2022 5:54:12 GMT -5
Four years celibate. …I have never seen an ultimatum conversation about this work out with a sexually intimate relationship restored. ...What's most likely is that the conversation happens like everyone's does: "I hate that we don't have sex and I want it or something bad will happen"... followed by reset sex for a couple weeks and rinse and repeat. I don’t do ultimatums, never have, which is one of the problems... I take your point about establishing the facts of the matter. I don’t know if a reset would happen or not; I can’t tell whether I am valuable anymore. I am quite clearly being catered to; dinners out and taking over the dishes and his constant “I love you, I miss you” when he’s away. I wish I was the kind of person who would let the words not be overshadowed by the number of years “away” has been the voluntary standard. You said you looked at "The Talk" template. Which options would you paste together? You ask if you have value, he acts in such a way that he is attempting to please you in some ways. You just need a few ways he can't or won't give. While the goalposts can move, whether we want them to or not, putting a floor under what you find acceptable is rather necessary. If you gave an ultimatum today and he said "Yes", you'd be losing out by not having constructed one. Maybe he'd be missing out too! While resets are rare, they have happened and it is almost always a result of an ultimatum. Refusers act when the marriage is threatened, and not before. If they were responsive to overtures, we wouldn't have ended up at the ILIASM forum. My own experience resulted in a reset lasting over two years, so far. I've dubbed it "remission". (Sexlessness can come back like cancer.) I told her after Valentine's Day, three months before our 20th anniversary I wanted no special blowout party as I thought things were going poorly and things would not stay the same. It had to get better.
Things stayed the same.
I wondered if I didn't have a choice in the matter. Maybe this was all I could expect. I started a dating profile to see if there was any interest.
I went on one date before being discovered.
I did a terrible job on celebrating her birthday, distracted by the excitement of dating. (I did not stop after being discovered.)
I was very attentive and organized in celebrating holidays with her, while continuing my texting, more mindfully.
In late November 2019, she asked me if I was going to date again.
I told her, yes, in January, after my daughter went to college and I wouldn't have to explain my absence some nights. My words were, "Next year, I'm having sex with someone. I hope it's you. But it isn't going to be nobody."
The reset began December 2019. The frequency is less than I'd like, but it is okay and she's present for intimacy. It isn't grudging.
The reset could end tomorrow, but that was what worked. Caveat: she was seeing a therapist in late 2019 and I'm suspicious she discussed our sexless marriage and the therapist gave her a badly needed third party reality check. This may have been critical to this reset attempt having been as good as it's been. The reproducible elements of the countermeasures I took were:
I wasn't specific about my ultimatum. Just made it clear I was unhappy. I awaited a response for two or three months. Tested the hypothesis that a life I wanted was feasible. Attended to the health of my nigh-platonic marriage. Gave her a specific deadline, with specific consequences. In hindsight, I should have had legal framework for divorce planned in advance. (Consultation, financial resources carefully enumerated and listed, plan to move out and survive if she draws up papers right away, etc.) - nod to baza Attending to your platonic marriage should be step one. If you're good to your spouse regardless of their behavior, it gives you peace of mind when you seek out a remedy to your unmet needs. Their marriage becomes better than ever, justifying fixing the problem we have, making our marriage good for us too.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 23, 2022 9:52:16 GMT -5
Four years celibate. …I have never seen an ultimatum conversation about this work out with a sexually intimate relationship restored. This might at least point you toward some understanding of the situation if you are lucky. It may end up that once you acknowledge these truths and sit with them, that actions may seem necessary. But I wouldn't worry about that now. I realize that telling you or anyone else this is unlikely to change the conversation you will likely have, nor the hope that you have. What's most likely is that the conversation happens like everyone's does: "I hate that we don't have sex and I want it or something bad will happen" "Fine then! Let's go! Satisfied?" followed by reset sex for a couple weeks and rinse and repeat. I don’t do ultimatums, never have, which is one of the problems—people expect them from me, don’t get them, and think I’m… malleable. Most of them never heard the door. This one would, though. I take your point about establishing the facts of the matter. I don’t know if a reset would happen or not; I can’t tell whether I am valuable anymore. I am quite clearly being catered to; dinners out and taking over the dishes and his constant “I love you, I miss you” when he’s away. I wish I was the kind of person who would let the words not be overshadowed by the number of years “away” has been the voluntary standard. Important to know - a reset is usually a performance. And it's usually temporary. Also important to be ready for - particularly in your example: Two things can be true at the same time. That's to say, "I love you, and I miss you" may all be perfectly true, but also, you don't marry everyone who loves you and misses you. The heartbreaking thing is that you can both love and miss each other, but when you ask yourself "what is a marriage?" or "when we married, did we take a celibate vow, EITHER of us?" then you might feel that your lived relationship doesn't correspond to your view of what a marriage is. This, despite it being "a relationship" that you both value.
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Post by angeleyes65 on May 2, 2022 17:42:12 GMT -5
I never really had the talk.. I tried various things. I made s cassette tape , ( yep that long ago) had him listen to it while we drove to a camping trip. It fell on deaf ears. I said snarky things out of hurt and anger like I'm not going to keep living like this. And when asked what I wanted for my birthday I said an apartment. I tried giving him the same amount of engagement he gave me. I finally just started living my life like I was living with a roommate. And that is how I referred to our situation. Simply put he didn't care about fixing it just me staying and he didn't think I would have the guts to leave. And I didn't for a long time but in the end he lost. In my situation no talk would do any good he hears what he wants to hear. I flat out told him when I quit being mad it's not because you won it's because I'm done. And that's exactly how it went.
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Post by worksforme2 on May 2, 2022 20:11:04 GMT -5
How one gears up depends on which "talk" one has with their spouse. My talks were about how unhappy I was with the lack of intimacy in the marriage. I made no bones about how difficult it was for me to be around her and have to avoid physical contact that could be viewed as leading to something sexual. Each talk sort of ratcheted up the previous talk until I finally gave up trying to figure out the "why" behind her coldness. I finally offered to stop asking her for intimacy if she would just go along with me having a "friend" for that sort of thing. But that didn't work either. We went through a reset for about 3 months and then she returned to avoiding me. I took off my ring and began distancing myself from her. After a week or so she noticed and took off her ring. We then began to discuss how to part amiably and still be friends afterward.
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