sosad
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by sosad on Mar 27, 2022 14:31:30 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I’m new to this board but not new to the subject. My husband stopped having sex with me after the birth of our daughter 15 years ago. I literally mean stopped. We have probably had sex less than 10 times since then. I still have no clue why. I have gone through the anger and grief and sadness. I have lived through my threats to leave and therapy and crying silently in bed every night for years and have still not gotten any answers as to why he just turned it off. I was younger then, I should have left but he was the love of my life and my shock at the situation drove me in a different direction. The last few years I have tried to just focus on myself. I found a job I like, hobbies, things to distract me. I have leaned in to my new reality which is basically living with my husband as a roommate and little more. Recently I have been the recipient of playful affection from a co worker. He is much younger and has a huge crush on me. This has stirred up so many past emotions and I find myself hurting again and angry. For so many years in my sexless marriage I felt ugly and unlovable as many people do. This flirting has pushed me back into the “why” phase. I am past the point that it matters why my husband has rejected me intimately so why does it still hurt so much. Ugh!!!! I am not attracted to my coworker, it will go nowhere. I would think it would feel good and I should feel somewhat justified that it isn’t my physical attractiveness that was the problem but I just feel empty and sad and angry like I did in the first few years. I have completely regressed.
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Post by baza on Mar 27, 2022 18:30:09 GMT -5
Welcome Sister sosad . This bit, where you say - "The last few years I have tried to just focus on myself. I found a job I like, hobbies, things to distract me. I have leaned in to my new reality" is encouraging. Dealing with the facts of the situation is always a good policy to adopt. A job you like and recreational things you like is also a good thing and it reads like you have a bit of a support group which is another good thing. Are you looking for suggestions yet Sister sosad , or just dipping your toes in the water ?
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sosad
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by sosad on Mar 27, 2022 19:14:19 GMT -5
I guess I am dipping my feet and looking for suggestions. How do others deal with the self esteem issues that develop in this situation? 15 years ago I was on fire, I was confident, successful didn’t constantly doubt myself and my abilities or my looks for that matter. Being denied intimacy is insidious and seems to have affected all aspects of my personality and my relationships with others. Distractions and hobbies are helpful but don’t quite fill that intimacy gap.
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 27, 2022 20:31:40 GMT -5
I dealt with it finally by focusing on myself, making friends of my own (not joint friends with my spouse), getting involved in activities that I enjoyed -- without my spouse, and getting individual therapy. Finally, I had such a nice life --without including my husband -- that I no longer was bitter, but was ready to divorce, and I did -- with no angst. I'm now with a man who really is compatible with me.
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Post by baza on Mar 28, 2022 4:34:35 GMT -5
I guess I am dipping my feet and looking for suggestions. How do others deal with the self esteem issues that develop in this situation? 15 years ago I was on fire, I was confident, successful didn’t constantly doubt myself and my abilities or my looks for that matter. Being denied intimacy is insidious and seems to have affected all aspects of my personality and my relationships with others. Distractions and hobbies are helpful but don’t quite fill that intimacy gap. Given that your marriage managed to trash your self esteem, then getting out of that environment would seem worth considering. You've mentioned elsewhere that in the past you've threatened to leave but didn't follow through at that time. It would be a good idea to consult a lawyer and establish how a divorce would shake out for you. Not that you'd necessarily go down that road, but these things you need to know, irrespective of the state of your marriage, as all marriages end ... death or divorce end every one whether it is a 'made in heaven job, or an ILIASM deal. ILIASM deals, by their very nature, are far more likely to end in divorce, so really, it is as well to see a lawyer so you know how such an event would shake out for you. Doing so is just you gathering information at this point.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 29, 2022 5:45:05 GMT -5
I guess I am dipping my feet and looking for suggestions. How do others deal with the self esteem issues that develop in this situation?... After three years of sexlessness (arbitrarily defined ubiquitously as 10 sessions or less per year), months before our 20th anniversary, I told Mrs. Mirrororchid that the sexlessness was a problem of mine and it had to get fixed and I wanted no big to-do for our 20th. I was going to be thoroughly embarrassed if there was no 21st. She lovingly corrected me that it was our problem. My gratified curiosity was not supplemented by any alteration of her behavior. I knew I'd been right the first time. It was my problem. She was content to keep things as they were. (Not to be confused with being content overall, as Apocrypha would want to make clear) So I chose to outsource, but asked myself "Could I actually manage it?". I set up a dating profile on OKcupid to date only married women (nice feature of that particular site). Looking for someone like you. We'd solve each other's problem yet keep the remainder of our vows and a reliable, safe roommate to grow old with. Landing dates and making mutual hints of intimacy with my dates was an enormous, cathartic release. My resentment and impatience with my wife melted away. Rather than allow me to date, my wife reset and she has not lost focus for two years, shockingly. (It may be critical I consummated no relationship with the OKcupid matches before she decided to be my wife physically again) Not to say you'll have similar results, but getting your needs met that marriage was all but designed for may not be an unreasonable course of action. Your husband has forsaken you, and broken his marital vows, yet you're keeping your end of the bargain. Noble, I suppose. But is it reasonable? If he had broken his vow by "forsaking all" and ignoring the critical word "others", would you be just as magnanimous if he declared, "I can have an affair, but you can't. After all, I'm still "forsaking others" Even though he left out the critical word "all"? Would you still feel so obligated to continue honoring all three words-"forsaking all others?
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sosad
New Member
Posts: 4
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Regression
Mar 30, 2022 23:53:19 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by sosad on Mar 30, 2022 23:53:19 GMT -5
I have thought about cheating so many times. Always in a general sense as there hasn’t been anyone in reality that I’ve had an attraction to (I wish). I did sign up for a married dating site once but was so overwhelmed with relentless messages to hook up that it scared me off. For me while it is about the sex it is more so about being adored and desired which means an actual relationship. I feel like if I can work myself up to leaving, at least I can do it guilt free if I don’t cheat. When we split it will be messy and he will be be a complete jackass about it. I should probably mention that my husband is completely delusional and therefore I am unable to have any sort of reasonable conversation with him about sex anymore. He acts like not having sex ever is no big deal and always has even when we were in therapy and I was borderline suicidal from years of rejection. He will literally still joke around about how “ big” he is or about hot women wanting him. It’s like he has no clue how ridiculous that is to me.
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Post by baza on Mar 31, 2022 3:44:54 GMT -5
Sorry to say Sister sosad that this sure looks like a 'typical' ILIASM situation. Based on what you've written so far it would seem advisable to prepare for a hard landing here. The first step would be to consult a lawyer to establish how a divorce would shake out for you, and to shore up your support group (to help you through such an event if 'the worst comes to the worst'). Also, some deep thinking about how you'd shepherd your kid through such an event too. Then, pull all the facts together into an exit strategy. You may or may not choose to drop the bomb at this point, but having a do-able exit strategy in your pocket can't hurt. Your view of the (perfectly legitimate) cheating option is pretty smart. This is probably not the time to be adding further complications on to what is already a pretty complicated situation. Good luck on your way through your process Sister sosad .
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 31, 2022 5:04:52 GMT -5
Sorry to hear, sosad The "cheating" route might be your only option, if you considered outsourcing. (Technically, "outsourcing" includes extramarital sex with the spouse's knowledge, or consent; the last being termed "polyamory") The adoring part of intimate relationships is by no means exclusive to marriage. Perhaps you felt you wanted to avoid that adoration. That's not altogether uncommon. Emotional investment creeps in sometimes, other times the participant stays absolutely firm. Perhaps you fear your resolve. Perhaps you have faith in your discipline but know the physical act would be empty if you avoided emotional connection. your success would drain teh life out of new "love". For a supplementary partner to work out, I'd expect some level of awareness and some level of communication to be necessary. If a divorce will be necessary, outsourcing will be all but impossible. Your blunt description suggests only a stay or go choice. His indifference to your needs for intimacy and weird machismo are reasons to go. What are the reasons to stay?
Our own personal Jiminy Cricket, baza , reminds us "The first step would be to consult a lawyer to establish how a divorce would shake out for you..." In another thread going on now, iliasm.org/thread/4806/money, a few preparation steps to get that legal consultation are discussed. If seeing a lawyer sounds scary, getting your financial information compiled is a big part of what they ask for and can be done any time you're feeling particularly frustrated or motivated. Key action items suggested were: Baza said:
In my jurisdiction Sister sweetplumeria , you would take [both your and your spouses's] last 3 years' worth of tax records, and every other relevant bit of financial information you have to show the asset/debt situation, income/expenditure information you have.
You would also have thought through what you would like as far as custody / visitation issues in regard to minor kids, plus other matters relevant to your post married life.
Sept 14, 2018 9:02:43 GMT -4 worksforme2 said:
...You can also research articles on divorcing and child custody or support. ... things like insurance and financial responsibility for medical/dental costs and holiday custody should be part of the discussion. IRA/401K's division should also ...
Mirrororchid said:
...If they do see a lawyer, this prep work will make the 30 minute consultation more valuable and taking these research steps may seem less drastic.
"I didn't call a lawyer... just getting ready if I ever feel like I have to. That's not so bad, is it?"
The thread also shares the emotional responses of members that met up with lawyers. The emphasis on tallying assets reminded me of my own work in my half-hearted efforts to draw up a will. Brides.com popped up in my Google search. Cripes. Downer, much? www.brides.com/steps-to-take-when-preparing-for-divorce-1103276Then links galore below the article about more divorce advice.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 31, 2022 11:11:15 GMT -5
I guess I am dipping my feet and looking for suggestions. How do others deal with the self esteem issues that develop in this situation? 15 years ago I was on fire, I was confident, successful didn’t constantly doubt myself and my abilities or my looks for that matter. Being denied intimacy is insidious and seems to have affected all aspects of my personality and my relationships with others. Distractions and hobbies are helpful but don’t quite fill that intimacy gap. The self-esteem issue can be incredibly destructive. As a nerdy kid who I'm told polished up, it's hard for me to "see myself" the way others have said they see me. In marriage, I started with the idea that I couldn't even get my own wife to want me, so how would I ever appeal to anyone else. I came to despise my own normal sexuality and treat it as if it was some kind of terrible perversion. I felt conflicted even about self-gratification because it made me feel so lonely and gross. Around a decade later, I still catch myself sometimes on a bad day. Here's what helped me the most: First, I focused on my physicality. My brain tends to run a bit hot and sometimes I feel like a brain carried around on a stick. I decided to use my body. I tried running and hated that (but I run now and tolerate it). I signed up for a loud, very hard, indoor cycling class. That helped drown out a lot of the inner noise and get me more focused in my body. I got fit as a result though what kept me coming back was the ability to shut my brain off for a bit and the feeling that I was welcomed and enjoyed in the class. Eventually I signed up for boot camp (light group fitness stations with an instructor) and then TRX - which got me in the best shape of my life. I got to a place where I finally felt confident in a bathing suit or with my shirt off. It ate a lot of time and attention for me though, and I was pretty busy. As a side-bar, I also got some books and Pinterest boards and explored other things that might help me feel outwardly sexy. Instead of a barber shop, I sought out a salon and asked what I should do. I got some books and took an interest in upgrading my wardrobe to something more age-appropriate, and that evoked a more mature version of the kind of artsy-cool I had when I was a Goth, before I was a dad. Second, I changed my life quite a bit. I embarked on what I called a "Year of Yes" (see Jim Carrey's comedy "Yes Man"). I made a rule in which if someone suggested something to me that I should do (that they would also do), I had to say "Yes" to it. As a result, I noticed the number of things suggested to me by friends and acquaintances that I'd say "No" to because I just don't do those kinds of things or like those kinds of things. As a result, I ended up at a retro dance club, at a nude beach with friends, I went out with a lot of friends who I'd neglected for years, I joined an Internet famous pub choir that covers pop songs, and that developed into a performing hobby as it blew up, in which I sang with my gang for thousands and did back vocals for some recognizable big name concerts. I met a lot of friends through that as well, and I went out with them. It all took on its own momentum, but also, I made a decision to not wait for permission or for company from my spouse. I just went out and tried things - I did my own thing again, when before, I'd been cocooning myself because I was so terrified I'd meet people I liked and it would make it worse. I became a more interesting person. Third, and I'm not sure which order this happened in, I really really worked hard to reframe the relationship I had with my spouse in different ways - to bring myself toward accepting the truth of it. This happened in stages for me, and zig zagged a bit. I focused first on what I thought a marriage is - objectively - as in what did I think I agreed to at my wedding, and even what did I think SHE agreed to at the wedding. What is a marriage? I realized that what I had was not that. I then removed my wedding ring because that was a lie. I had something other than what that ring symbolized. I won't lie and say I felt better - but the load shifted a great deal, because I had less invested in upholding a lie. Then I went through a period where I bargained with life a bit - where I opened to the idea that marriage could be something other than what I envisioned, and if I'd be open to that with someone following my wife, maybe I'd be open to it WITH my wife, if I'd just met her. So, that began a period of Relationship 2.0 - where I agreed to the open relationship she pitched as an alternative to divorcing right away. I had many strong, convincing justifications as to why that might work with my spouse, and I set conditions for it designed to limit and protect myself - to ensure that over the longer haul, we developed the connection I sought. That didn't work out - though ironically I was able to handle the open part much more deftly than her. After a few more pivotal observations - I realized that regardless of my own investment in the marriage and my feeling for her, this simply wasn't reciprocated. I could not be married to a single woman, and one person cannot hold a relationship in place. This wasn't a marriage either. As painful as it was, admitting this truth was VITAL to my recovery of esteem. I had to come to a place where I wasn't comparing what I had vs what other person I thought I might get (a losing prospect given that my esteem wasn't yet recovered), but where I was comparing the relationship I had vs the objective standard I had of what a marriage is. Once I realized this - really sunk in - I was able to let go of the fight and start building on what I had and what I could control: me, my future, the new life ahead. I will offer that dating (including during the open period) - feeling and being told I'm a sexy guy - and having that proven to me in undeniable ways by very sexy women (and frankly, even women who I did not personally find attractive), was a VERY potent shot in my esteem. Dating was and is frustrating, exciting, dangerous, heartbreaking and bewildering - an adventure. But it did undeniably build me up over time. Dating within my open relationship though, did not alleviate my marital strife - in fact it raised my standards to a point higher than where I started. I treated my spouse better, and I expected better treatment in return (that I did not receive). I compared my marriage vs my level of tolerance for bullshit on a casual date, and realized I'd never in a million years tolerate someone new treating me the way I was treated by someone who was supposed to be my invested partner. This feeling improved in my post-marriage period and I now have recovered a lot.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Mar 31, 2022 11:28:31 GMT -5
Apocrypha This is a seminal post which sketches out a terrific framework for moving past the resentment and "ugly" phase of sexless marriage. I thank you for sharing your experience. I commend you for the tremendous work you did. And lastly, you motivate me to aspire to similar levels of success when it comes to outcomes. If there is a post on ILIASM to be bookmarked, upvoted or superliked on moving forward in a sexless marriage, this is it. One of the best I've seen across any number of online communities. I guess I am dipping my feet and looking for suggestions. How do others deal with the self esteem issues that develop in this situation? 15 years ago I was on fire, I was confident, successful didn’t constantly doubt myself and my abilities or my looks for that matter. Being denied intimacy is insidious and seems to have affected all aspects of my personality and my relationships with others. Distractions and hobbies are helpful but don’t quite fill that intimacy gap. The self-esteem issue can be incredibly destructive. As a nerdy kid who I'm told polished up, it's hard for me to "see myself" the way others have said they see me. In marriage, I started with the idea that I couldn't even get my own wife to want me, so how would I ever appeal to anyone else. I came to despise my own normal sexuality and treat it as if it was some kind of terrible perversion. I felt conflicted even about self-gratification because it made me feel so lonely and gross. Around a decade later, I still catch myself sometimes on a bad day. Here's what helped me the most: First, I focused on my physicality. My brain tends to run a bit hot and sometimes I feel like a brain carried around on a stick. I decided to use my body. I tried running and hated that (but I run now and tolerate it). I signed up for a loud, very hard, indoor cycling class. That helped drown out a lot of the inner noise and get me more focused in my body. I got fit as a result though what kept me coming back was the ability to shut my brain off for a bit and the feeling that I was welcomed and enjoyed in the class. Eventually I signed up for boot camp (light group fitness stations with an instructor) and then TRX - which got me in the best shape of my life. I got to a place where I finally felt confident in a bathing suit or with my shirt off. It ate a lot of time and attention for me though, and I was pretty busy. As a side-bar, I also got some books and Pinterest boards and explored other things that might help me feel outwardly sexy. Instead of a barber shop, I sought out a salon and asked what I should do. I got some books and took an interest in upgrading my wardrobe to something more age-appropriate, and that evoked a more mature version of the kind of artsy-cool I had when I was a Goth, before I was a dad. Second, I changed my life quite a bit. I embarked on what I called a "Year of Yes" (see Jim Carrey's comedy "Yes Man"). I made a rule in which if someone suggested something to me that I should do (that they would also do), I had to say "Yes" to it. As a result, I noticed the number of things suggested to me by friends and acquaintances that I'd say "No" to because I just don't do those kinds of things or like those kinds of things. As a result, I ended up at a retro dance club, at a nude beach with friends, I went out with a lot of friends who I'd neglected for years, I joined an Internet famous pub choir that covers pop songs, and that developed into a performing hobby as it blew up, in which I sang with my gang for thousands and did back vocals for some recognizable big name concerts. I met a lot of friends through that as well, and I went out with them. It all took on its own momentum, but also, I made a decision to not wait for permission or for company from my spouse. I just went out and tried things - I did my own thing again, when before, I'd been cocooning myself because I was so terrified I'd meet people I liked and it would make it worse. I became a more interesting person. Third, and I'm not sure which order this happened in, I really really worked hard to reframe the relationship I had with my spouse in different ways - to bring myself toward accepting the truth of it. This happened in stages for me, and zig zagged a bit. I focused first on what I thought a marriage is - objectively - as in what did I think I agreed to at my wedding, and even what did I think SHE agreed to at the wedding. What is a marriage? I realized that what I had was not that. I then removed my wedding ring because that was a lie. I had something other than what that ring symbolized. I won't lie and say I felt better - but the load shifted a great deal, because I had less invested in upholding a lie. Then I went through a period where I bargained with life a bit - where I opened to the idea that marriage could be something other than what I envisioned, and if I'd be open to that with someone following my wife, maybe I'd be open to it WITH my wife, if I'd just met her. So, that began a period of Relationship 2.0 - where I agreed to the open relationship she pitched as an alternative to divorcing right away. I had many strong, convincing justifications as to why that might work with my spouse, and I set conditions for it designed to limit and protect myself - to ensure that over the longer haul, we developed the connection I sought. That didn't work out - though ironically I was able to handle the open part much more deftly than her. After a few more pivotal observations - I realized that regardless of my own investment in the marriage and my feeling for her, this simply wasn't reciprocated. I could not be married to a single woman, and one person cannot hold a relationship in place. This wasn't a marriage either. As painful as it was, admitting this truth was VITAL to my recovery of esteem. I had to come to a place where I wasn't comparing what I had vs what other person I thought I might get (a losing prospect given that my esteem wasn't yet recovered), but where I was comparing the relationship I had vs the objective standard I had of what a marriage is. Once I realized this - really sunk in - I was able to let go of the fight and start building on what I had and what I could control: me, my future, the new life ahead. I will offer that dating (including during the open period) - feeling and being told I'm a sexy guy - and having that proven to me in undeniable ways by very sexy women (and frankly, even women who I did not personally find attractive), was a VERY potent shot in my esteem. Dating was and is frustrating, exciting, dangerous, heartbreaking and bewildering - an adventure. But it did undeniably build me up over time. Dating within my open relationship though, did not alleviate my marital strife - in fact it raised my standards to a point higher than where I started. I treated my spouse better, and I expected better treatment in return (that I did not receive). I compared my marriage vs my level of tolerance for bullshit on a casual date, and realized I'd never in a million years tolerate someone new treating me the way I was treated by someone who was supposed to be my invested partner. This feeling improved in my post-marriage period and I now have recovered a lot.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 1, 2022 8:45:35 GMT -5
I appreciate your comment, Daddeo. I hope that it provides help for someone in a similar situation.
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Post by lightbeam3076 on Apr 3, 2022 16:13:37 GMT -5
Hello, I know all these feelings all too well as a female Higher libido partner.
At the risk of being too out there, can I suggest you start enjoying some somatic/embodiment or surrogate partner therapeutic work. The drive behind that is to move all your sexual energy inwards to light yourself up. By that I mean, i. be your own lover e.g. bring yourself to orgasm regularly, find new and multiple ways to reach it ii. offer yourself the reassurance you need e.g. that you're gorgeous, desirable etc iii. radically accept yourself as being loveable just as you are e.g. the work of Tara Brach helps here iv. Check out Kundalini yoga and sacral chakras and how to breathe sexual energy through your system v. Check out the world association of sex coaches for some inspiring teachers.
To quote- “Feeling sexy is a powerful and beautiful sensation within. I am responsible for my sexuality. It flows through me like molten gold, lighting up my body with a force that I now harness in all aspects of my life. Nothing feels grasping or out of reach any longer.”
The day I stopped looking to my husband or other men to affirm or define my sexuality was a really liberating moment. You're a divine goddess honey, but you gotta believe that and worship yourself first. Take that forward in life and new relationships and you will certainly flourish. good luck x Hope that's not too weird for you!
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