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Post by allworkandnoplay on Jan 17, 2022 1:40:21 GMT -5
Hello All,
I wrote this separately, and I had no idea it was getting this long until I pasted it in here. My apologies for the length. I appreciate all of you who take the time to read it. I am sure you can find my previous posts in my profile if you want to know more of my backstory.
We have been married over 25 years. We were both very young, still in college. I honestly have no idea how often we had sex in the beginning, but I do not recall having any problems early on. Issues really started after our second child was born (she is now 18). I distinctly remember having fights about how once every few weeks was not enough. Fights escalated from there, as did the interval between sessions. As of now, I think we have had sex once in around 4 years, and that was 2 1/2 years ago. Several years ago I decided I was just going to disengage. It is not a silent treatment. We just don’t talk about anything. We work for the same company. Actually, we worked in the same building for over 10 years, but I have since moved to a different location across town. The only thing we ever talk about is work related, or something that I know we happen to have close enough of an agreement. For the longest time we have had parallel lives. When we get home from work, she goes straight upstairs to the bedroom. I stay downstairs in the living room. We don’t eat together, watch tv together, nothing. We do have an occasional date night, but that is just an excuse to just go get a nice steak dinner. Additionally, if we are talking about something and her phone rings or text message comes through, I am immediately cut off and she goes to that, even if we were in the middle of something. We still sleep in the same bed, ironically at her insistence; I just go up when I am ready each night. Weekends are the same. She never even comes down unless she is leaving to go somewhere, or to get food, etc. On the upside, I come and go and do whatever I please. I have never been good at making friends (our friends have always been mutual), but I finally have a small group now and we do things together and we have hobbies that we all work on together. We still did occasionally have sex, maybe once or twice a year, although the interval between continued to grow. She ended up having to have a complete hysterectomy at age 44 (family history of cancer – no real physical dysfunction other than the beginnings of normal perimenopause). That was almost 2 ½ years ago she had the surgery. We had sex maybe one time in the 18 months before that, and nothing since the surgery. Knowing that loss of libido can be a side effect of a hysterectomy and sudden onset menopause (no HRT), this has been her final game-set-match. At about the one year anniversary of the surgery I mentioned to her, “You know, it has been over a year since we’ve had sex.” She looked up from her book and said, “I know,” and went back to reading. That was the last ever mention of anything sex related. This is where we are now. There is one benefit, though. We almost never fight about anything anymore. Nothing. Divorce has never been an option before because of our financial co-dependence. Neither of us could afford to maintain a separate household, and I certainly could not have afforded the child support that I would most certainly have been required to pay. I have been working for the past 4 years or more to get us into a better financial situation. We haven’t been too bad financially, comfortable at least, just not enough for two households. I think, though, that I am finally at a place where I can make it happen. We sold our house a few years ago (got a good deal) with the intention of renting for a few years until the kids were out of high school, paying off some debt, etc. Once they were both out, we would reevaluate what kind of housing we wanted for “just the two of us”. Actually, that situation was finally what gave me the opportunity to start making a real "Exit Plan". Early on, all of our finances were co-mingled, but I have managed to separate most of them. My state is a 50/50 state, so all debts and assets are equally responsible by both married partners regardless of whose name is on the loan, but it makes for a much easier division with a divorce decree without having to re-apply for new loans or terms just to remove one of us from the account. Except for the cars, we have virtually no real debt, just some very small credit card balances that I plan on getting rid of before this all goes down, if I can make it work. But also, no real assets either since we sold our house. Only assets are our individual retirement accounts. I know how divorce works in my state, but I have stopped short of actually visiting a lawyer. Divorces can go quickly here, as little as 30-60 days, especially in our situation - No child support; no alimony (we make almost the same salary from our jobs); no assets to split and sell off; and I’ve mentioned the debt situation. Our current lease runs up in June, coinciding with our last high school graduation (hence no child support). We have to look for somewhere else to live anyway – might as well make it two places instead of one. I have even been working on a preemptive agreement with what I believe will be a more than fair division of debts and expenses, including new budgets for each of us with relative expenses in a new individual household relative to the agreement. We really have nothing else except for personal possessions, which she can have whatever she wants. I am not sentimental. I don’t anticipate her being able to cause a problem, because we just don’t have anything to argue about – literally, as we have nothing. She could still try to make it miserable for me, but it would be empty fussing because the only thing she could argue for is for me to take more of the debt so she ends up with more money per month in her individual budget, but she can’t do that in our state. The one thing holding me back – FEAR. If I talk to a lawyer, this is real. I have not really had “the talk” officially with my W either. If I do, this is real. I need to talk to a lawyer before I talk to her, and I am getting dangerously close to ending timelines. I basically have about 6-8 weeks before I/we need to begin to locate new places to live and 5 months to move out. I have already been looking, getting budget ideas, but she has been looking for us to have one place to stay together. She will be blindsided, but I cannot accept that she will be surprised. She has to understand that this is not how a marriage relationship is supposed to be, even it is the way she wants it to be. We have had family friends divorce, and each time the leaving spouse has been vilified and ridiculed by herself and her family – very judgmental. I have no connection to my life before. My entire existence is tied to hers. I have no real family to speak of, and no ties back to my childhood. I know I will be the bad guy; I do not, and will not, disparage her in public, and I have no social media. In fact, until recently, no one had any inkling that there was anything amiss in our relationship. As far as anyone was concerned, we were perfect. I finally told my relatively new small circle of friends about our sexual (and other) issues and they are supportive. I am very introverted and have never made friends easily, and honestly it has become more difficult over the years. Will I even be able to function alone, my own friends, dating again? Bottom line – I am scared. Terrified, even. I don’t know if I will be able to go through with it. I do all of this research and planning, then when it comes down to picking up the phone, or sending an email to a lawyer I always seem to find some excuse of why not to do it yet. I no longer have the luxury of postponing. I have set us up for the best possible scenario for a divorce in terms of finances, housing, job and moving timing, etc. If I wait too long and we get another house, even it is just renting, it will make it infinitely more difficult. I know it’s now or never, but I just can’t seem to make myself do it. I feel paralyzed, petrified. I’m only in my mid-40’s. I have never thought of myself as particularly attractive, and I have certainly gained weight over the years (although I have made progress recently). I may be lonely, but I am not technically alone. If I do this, I will be both, at least for a while. I am well-known at work and in the community and we still have many mutual friends and acquaintances, despite me working in a different location for 5 years. I know some will take sides, probably a few unfairly. What do I do? It should have no effect on my work or my standing at work, but what if it does? Except for literally 4 other people (none from my work), no one knows of my situation. I have no intention of gossip or any discussion apart from an acknowledgement of fact that it would be done. Would she also be as respectful, or would she tear me apart socially? Can I recover from something like that? Or am I just letting my fear and anxiety control me?
And here I stand...
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 17, 2022 3:03:37 GMT -5
You can recover. There are no guarantees in life, but this was my situation in a nutshell.
When my ex told me she was filing for divorce, I backed away from our mutual friends because I knew she needed more emotional support. That went a bit worse than I expected. In her filing, she made some pretty extreme demands for support. Our mutual friends never contacted me to check in and see how things were going on my end. I decided, my life was over where I was at and it was time to start over somewhere else. I put out my feelers, and got a new job in a new state. In three years, I've worked for four companies and I am about to start on a fifth. My alimony is still pretty extreme, but I have more left over at the end of the month than I did when I was married. I have a girlfriend I am enamored with mutually, and we have more great sex in any given week than I got from my ex in a year at any level of quality. So, my life is completely different than it was before that divorce ball got rolling. I can't say life is perfect, but, I am happier than if I had stayed.
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Jan 17, 2022 3:19:26 GMT -5
You can recover. There are no guarantees in life, but this was my situation in a nutshell. When my ex told me she was filing for divorce, I backed away from our mutual friends because I knew she needed more emotional support. That went a bit worse than I expected. In her filing, she made some pretty extreme demands for support. Our mutual friends never contacted me to check in and see how things were going on my end. I decided, my life was over where I was at and it was time to start over somewhere else. I put out my feelers, and got a new job in a new state. In three years, I've worked for four companies and I am about to start on a fifth. My alimony is still pretty extreme, but I have more left over at the end of the month than I did when I was married. I have a girlfriend I am enamored with mutually, and we have more great sex in any given week than I got from my ex in a year at any level of quality. So, my life is completely different than it was before that divorce ball got rolling. I can't say life is perfect, but, I am happier than if I had stayed. Thanks. I expect that will happen socially, and for much the same reasons you mention. I have too much connection here to really be able to move too far away, but we live in a fairly large metropolitan area, so distance should not be a problem.
I am finally less concerned about finances than I had been (other than having enough money at the end of the month). We already don't have a lot left over at the end of the month, and with splitting things equally into two households it will be even tighter, but it is doable. We are essentially equal in terms of job, job security, salary and everything else. She can't demand for any additional support on those grounds. Though that is part of what I do need to verify with an attorney.
I always appreciate your comments.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 17, 2022 3:33:07 GMT -5
Most attorneys will give half an hour before their meter starts running, with no obligation. You owe it to yourself to see where you stand.
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Post by baza on Jan 17, 2022 3:43:41 GMT -5
Been re-reading your posts from March 2017 up to the present Brother allworkandnoplay . I'll offer you this - From time to time (most recently about 10 months ago) a poll is put up inviting people who have been out of their ILIASM shithole for at least a year inviting them to let us know if they are happier now than they were a year ago. The results of these polls keep coming up 90% / 10%. 90% of people who get out of their ILIASM shithole by at least a year are happier than they were in their ILIASM deal. So, if you were to go down the leaving route, the chances of it resulting in some horrible outcome are extra-ordinarily low. I'm not a gambler, but I do think those are pretty good odds. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 17, 2022 6:59:28 GMT -5
Hello All,
... She ended up having to have a complete hysterectomy at age 44 (family history of cancer – no real physical dysfunction other than the beginnings of normal perimenopause). That was almost 2 ½ years ago she had the surgery. We had sex maybe one time in the 18 months before that, and nothing since the surgery. Knowing that loss of libido can be a side effect of a hysterectomy and sudden onset menopause (no HRT), this has been her final game-set-match. At about the one year anniversary of the surgery I mentioned to her, “You know, it has been over a year since we’ve had sex.” She looked up from her book and said, “I know,” and went back to reading ...If I talk to a lawyer, this is real. I have not really had “the talk” officially with my W either. If I do, this is real. I need to talk to a lawyer before I talk to her, and I am getting dangerously close to ending timelines. I basically have about 6-8 weeks before I/we need to begin to locate new places to live and 5 months to move out. I have already been looking, getting budget ideas, but she has been looking for us to have one place to stay together. She will be blindsided, but I cannot accept that she will be surprised. She has to understand that this is not how a marriage relationship is supposed to be, even it is the way she wants it to be. We have had family friends divorce, and each time the leaving spouse has been vilified and ridiculed by herself and her family – very judgmental. ... As far as anyone was concerned, we were perfect. ...Will I even be able to function alone, my own friends, dating again? ... when it comes down to picking up the phone, or sending an email to a lawyer I always seem to find some excuse of why not to do it yet. I no longer have the luxury of postponing.
...If I wait too long and we get another house, even it is just renting, it will make it infinitely more difficult. I know it’s now or never, but I just can’t seem to make myself do it. I feel paralyzed, petrified.
I’m only in my mid-40’s. I have never thought of myself as particularly attractive, and I have certainly gained weight over the years (although I have made progress recently). I may be lonely, but I am not technically alone. If I do this, I will be both, at least for a while. ...
...Would she also be as respectful, or would she tear me apart socially? Can I recover from something like that? Or am I just letting my fear and anxiety control me?
...We are essentially equal in terms of job, job security, salary and everything else. She can't demand for any additional support on those grounds. Though that is part of what I do need to verify with an attorney.
I could be wrong, but the uterus only releases hormones during pregnancy. She'd have to have had her ovaries removed to need Hormone Replacement Therapy. Convenient event for ending something she didn't want, so... there it is. My wife said orgasms used to include a fluttering of the uterus which was gone after her hysterectomy, but our sex life didn't change a whole lot at the time. Her response to your calling attention to the year long drought is not hormonal. The attitude may be, but the deliberate blunt expression of her indifference was a choice. There are two "Talk"s. One is about sexlessness, the other divorce. Never had either one? Maybe the divorce papers will be her only notice (though she can initiate a talk after you plop them down. Maybe you want to be prepared or get one done first) If you cannot pull the trigger, email programs may be equipped with delayed send. Write the inquiry with your favorite lawyer candidate and request their free consultation and set it to get sent in the middle of the night a random number of days from now. Don't even look at how many. Block that part of the screen with your hand before you hit send. You'll get replies on a random day. You need not answer them, so even this isn't the point of no return. Will you be able to function alone? You have friends you do hobbies with. You already are functioning alone. The person supposed to share your life is in her room all day. Give yourself credit. Working on your waistline? Good. Keep it up. It'll help you date. Maybe get some snappy clothes for it. Ostracism? That'd only work for mutual friends. You've contained that damage already. You've got this. How generous is your split proposal? I loathe the idea of ending up with less because the lawyers cost more than what you were willing to give up. 55-45, no lawyers. 50-50 if there are. You likely end up with the same money, but your wife has a cash cushion she wouldn't have and that helps your kids too. Best of all, lawyers starve, which makes everyone smile. She's looking for places together. This signals she's okay with staying with you. You are not okay staying with her, with the status quo. OK, how bad does she want to avoid the judgement of her family and the pointless expense of a separate household? How good would it be to maintain a marriage til death do you part? You may opt instead to outsource. Offer to stay together in the same house as long as you can date (with all that implies.) You can negotiate the desire for discretion. Date outside the local area, that sort of thing. A roommate with a reliable income, no deal-breaking personality issues, and someone you trust are all good things to have. I'd warn you about your wife potentially having more success than you in outsourcing, (what's good for the gander...) but her fear of family judgement may mean she doesn't try. Fair warning, it may be too difficult to arrange a romantic relationship while married or a new girlfriend will be angry you don't split. Even if your wife agrees to outsourcing, the possibility exists you may end up divorcing anyway. Limit your promises since not all factors can be accounted for. OKcupid allows you to limit your choices to married women only which puts an extra buffer in the way of a FWB wanting you all for herself. Some wives there are polyamorous, some, like you, LIASM. They'd be monogamous, with you. (at least, at first.) Such women may be less demanding of dating expenses since old fashioned courtship with matrimony in mind will not apply. This may suit your economic conditions better. |
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Jan 17, 2022 18:25:46 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but the uterus only releases hormones during pregnancy. She'd have to have had her ovaries removed to need Hormone Replacement Therapy. Convenient event for ending something she didn't want, so... there it is. My wife said orgasms used to include a fluttering of the uterus which was gone after her hysterectomy, but our sex life didn't change a whole lot at the time. Her response to your calling attention to the year long drought is not hormonal. The attitude may be, but the deliberate blunt expression of her indifference was a choice. There are two "Talk"s. One is about sexlessness, the other divorce. Never had either one? Maybe the divorce papers will be her only notice (though she can initiate a talk after you plop them down. Maybe you want to be prepared or get one done first) If you cannot pull the trigger, email programs may be equipped with delayed send. Write the inquiry with your favorite lawyer candidate and request their free consultation and set it to get sent in the middle of the night a random number of days from now. Don't even look at how many. Block that part of the screen with your hand before you hit send. You'll get replies on a random day. You need not answer them, so even this isn't the point of no return. Will you be able to function alone? You have friends you do hobbies with. You already are functioning alone. The person supposed to share your life is in her room all day. Give yourself credit. Working on your waistline? Good. Keep it up. It'll help you date. Maybe get some snappy clothes for it. Ostracism? That'd only work for mutual friends. You've contained that damage already. You've got this. How generous is your split proposal? I loathe the idea of ending up with less because the lawyers cost more than what you were willing to give up. 55-45, no lawyers. 50-50 if there are. You likely end up with the same money, but your wife has a cash cushion she wouldn't have and that helps your kids too. Best of all, lawyers starve, which makes everyone smile. She's looking for places together. This signals she's okay with staying with you. You are not okay staying with her, with the status quo. OK, how bad does she want to avoid the judgement of her family and the pointless expense of a separate household? How good would it be to maintain a marriage til death do you part? You may opt instead to outsource. Offer to stay together in the same house as long as you can date (with all that implies.) You can negotiate the desire for discretion. Date outside the local area, that sort of thing. A roommate with a reliable income, no deal-breaking personality issues, and someone you trust are all good things to have. I'd warn you about your wife potentially having more success than you in outsourcing, (what's good for the gander...) but her fear of family judgement may mean she doesn't try. Fair warning, it may be too difficult to arrange a romantic relationship while married or a new girlfriend will be angry you don't split. Even if your wife agrees to outsourcing, the possibility exists you may end up divorcing anyway. Limit your promises since not all factors can be accounted for. OKcupid allows you to limit your choices to married women only which puts an extra buffer in the way of a FWB wanting you all for herself. Some wives there are polyamorous, some, like you, LIASM. They'd be monogamous, with you. (at least, at first.) Such women may be less demanding of dating expenses since old fashioned courtship with matrimony in mind will not apply. This may suit your economic conditions better.
Hysterectomy was complete (sometimes referred to as a "radical hysterectomy"). All plumbing gone - uterus, ovaries, everything. Family history of ovarian cancer (at least 3 immediate past generations in a row). Dr said everything would come out out at first hint of perimenopause. So it did. I don't begrudge that at all. Medical necessity, and besides, I am not a woman and have no right to an opinion on that. I only mentioned it as informational. It has been a convenient reason for to deny sexual relations when it should not be, at least based on the research I have done. Actually, it hasn't actually been an excuse - just utterly ignoring the situation at all. It is as if sex does not exist in the world.
I guess in hindsight, this info was irrelevant as the sexlessness has existed for 18+ years. I was just trying to give a full picture of my situation.
We are a religious family, although she is MUCH, MUCH more dogmatic than I am. I am not opposed to divorce, whereas she and her family very much are opposed. That obviously goes for any form of open arrangement or polyamory as well. I guess I have an overdeveloped sense of duty. Even if she is choosing to break the marriage vows, I am not. If I were to outsource I think the guilt would overwhelm me. For others it is a perfectly reasonable choice, and I have no argument with them. Each of us must make those decisions in our lives and deal with any consequences that may follow, so who am I to judge. I just don't think I could do it and not go insane from worry and guilt.
As far as my tentative agreement. I have been purposely vague as I am still paranoid about being recognized online, but let me see if I can clear it up a bit:
- Salary - Same work field, similar position. My salary is only slightly higher than hers, yearly by only a couple of thousand dollars; and I have a side gig I work.
- Debt - small credit card balance, probably gone in 6 months anyway; car loans and student loans. My student loans dwarf hers (I have two additional degrees more than she does). My student loan payment more than neutralizes any difference in take home pay between us. Actually, factoring in the loan payment, I take home less than I would if I had never obtained the degrees in the first place. Such a waste.
My proposal will be for me to keep all of my student loan balance and she keeps hers. The difference in loan payment and length of payback time more than makes up for the difference in take home pay for each of us, even over time. All of the credit cards and one car loan are now split into our separate names. We will keep those balances which are technically in our own names (which is almost an even split). We'll need to figure out the split for the two loans that are still joint. I call this generous, because our state is an equal division state. All of our student loans were taken while we were married, so even though we did not technically cosign for each other, we are responsible for half of the other's loans (same for credit cards and car loans). The rest just factors into who will pay for the vehicles, and medical and auto insurance for our daughters while they are still in college.
In the end, all else being equal she will have a little more balance at the end of monthly expenses than I will, but not a large difference. Any potential earning power difference in my future is more than cancelled out by the amount of the student loan payment. So by keeping our own student loans, it equalizes any salary discrepancy. There can be no argument for more support. If she does and we go to an even split she will increase her debt liability by more than 400%. So frankly, that would be stupid if she did that. Any other split would end up with me making a little more money, so maybe she could make an argument for alimony (but I don't think the difference would be enough to even qualify).
So long story short, I am taking the greater debt liability to cancel the fact that I make a little more money than she does. I don't know what kind of percentage split that makes, but the bottom line in a monthly budget is as close to dead even as I can make it by doing it this way. (FYI... I will be making student loan payments until I die. Second worst mistake of my life.)
I hope that clears things up a bit. Thanks for the comments.
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Jan 17, 2022 19:51:16 GMT -5
There are two "Talk"s. One is about sexlessness, the other divorce. Never had either one? Maybe the divorce papers will be her only notice (though she can initiate a talk after you plop them down. Maybe you want to be prepared or get one done first)
Oh, we've had the sex talk many times over the years. No different, really, than anyone else here. Lots of excuses and gaslighting. My wife is the Queen of DARVO. She will find a way to make everything my fault. Her favorite tactic is accuse me of calling her names or belittling her if we disagree about something. If I don't like the same song or movie she does, then she says, "I guess I must just be stupid because I do like it." Immediate escalation, puts insulting words into my mouth (that NEVER came out of my mouth), and then uses it later; "Why would I want sex with you if you just think I'm stupid. Is that all I'm good for?" This goes for everything, and not just sex. The only way I finally found to avoid it all was to disengage. Ever since then, mostly calm and quiet. Any arguments are short and overall irrelevant. I don't tell her my opinions anymore unless she specifically asks for them (and she rarely does). I only talk in factual conversations, as I would with any co-worker. It's funny, thinking back. Probably red flags I didn't know to watch out for. When we first got married she expected that we had to have the same bedtime. I am a night owl and she is not, but if I did not come to bed at the same time she was going, she was mad at me and held that grudge (and it wasn't about sex - it was just about going to sleep and waking up together at the same time). She expected that we had to have the exact same opinions, likes, and dislikes. If we didn't then there was something wrong with us (meaning me). We had to be completely united and the same, but I was to conform to her. I guess it was a childish fantasy about what marriage was supposed to be (her parents certainly were not like that). She finally outgrew most of that, but she still uses it as a weapon in arguments. I have not threatened divorce before. I have not told her I was thinking about it. So, no, we have not had the divorce talk. I am sure she knows I am not happy, but I am also sure she does not know how far I am willing to take it. My plan is that when I have that talk, it will be to inform her it is happening, not tell her I'm thinking about it. I have no desire to be with her anymore. I have no sexual attraction to her. I don't even like her as a person, really. I'm just done. Like I said before, it is just this nagging FEAR. I can't get past the "what if's" in my head. I may be so codependent that I am irretrievably broken. |
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Jan 17, 2022 20:08:35 GMT -5
Been re-reading your posts from March 2017 up to the present Brother allworkandnoplay . I'll offer you this - From time to time (most recently about 10 months ago) a poll is put up inviting people who have been out of their ILIASM shithole for at least a year inviting them to let us know if they are happier now than they were a year ago. The results of these polls keep coming up 90% / 10%. 90% of people who get out of their ILIASM shithole by at least a year are happier than they were in their ILIASM deal. So, if you were to go down the leaving route, the chances of it resulting in some horrible outcome are extra-ordinarily low. I'm not a gambler, but I do think those are pretty good odds.
Thanks, baza, and you are exactly right. Facts is facts, as they say, but I can't exactly claim to be completely rational 
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 18, 2022 0:35:07 GMT -5
allworkandnoplay, morals are often a matter of perspective, and the angle you are viewing the marriage vows at might not give you the best picture. The traditional marriage vows call for "forsaking all others," monogamy, AFTER "to have and to hold," sexual intimacy is established. You cannot have "forsaking all others" without "to have and to hold". That might better be described as none-ogamy, or non-ogamy. If your wife is avoiding of sexual intimacy, she has already broken her vows to you. I Cor 7:5 is often brought up. The refusing spouse defrauds the refused of what they have promised. Other religions will have similar expectations. Social perceptions are never going to be in your favor. You can either be bullied into submission, or not.
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Post by sadkat on Jan 18, 2022 21:20:11 GMT -5
I had a hard time picking up the phone and scheduling my free 30 minute consultation, too. What I found when I finally did was that the session was all informational- a validation of my thought process regarding separation of assets. It gave me the confidence I needed to move forward. Ironically, after that meeting, my reluctance in drawing up the divorce papers was having to pay the retainer. In my state, there is a minimum 6 month separation period before divorce. I decided to tell my h I wanted a divorce before drawing up the papers. Mutually agreeing to the terms of the divorce prior to filing worked well for us. I left in September of 2019. We finalized our divorce in late 2020. My ex and I are still on very good terms today. Our financial situation was similar to yours. We both had good paying jobs- his salary was about 10K more than mine. We each waived spousal support and kept our own retirement accounts. We had no debt after we sold our home. We split the equity from the sale of the house. Divorce can be accomplished in a civil and equitable manner as long as both parties are willing. You will be much happier and less fearful once you have that conversation with a lawyer. You don't have to hire a lawyer right away to draw up the paperwork so don't let the fear of actually going through with it prevent you from seeing one. Fear was the biggest thing that held me back so I understand what you are feeling. I wish you the best!
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Jan 18, 2022 21:59:12 GMT -5
allworkandnoplay , morals are often a matter of perspective, and the angle you are viewing the marriage vows at might not give you the best picture. The traditional marriage vows call for "forsaking all others," monogamy, AFTER "to have and to hold," sexual intimacy is established. You cannot have "forsaking all others" without "to have and to hold". That might better be described as none-ogamy, or non-ogamy. If your wife is avoiding of sexual intimacy, she has already broken her vows to you. I Cor 7:5 is often brought up. The refusing spouse defrauds the refused of what they have promised. Other religions will have similar expectations. Social perceptions are never going to be in your favor. You can either be bullied into submission, or not. I agree with everything you are saying here. 100%.
That still does not change a lifetime of ingrained thoughts and beliefs. I know she has absolutely broken those vows, but it does not mean I must in return. Call it "taking the high road" if you will. Besides, who breaks what vow is irrelevant as no relationship is perfect. I know I have been guilty of being a bad husband at times. I am just no longer willing to stay and continue to try and mend wounds, some very old. I guess in some ways I would like to have some kind of defense. Like, "no matter how upset or miserable I was, I never _____."
It really all comes down to the fact that I am just trying to make myself feel better about this. I am not innocent of our marriage problems. I know I have been an asshole, especially after disengaging. She could come up with any number of reasons why she would want to divorce - but she hasn't. I am the one who is not only breaking the contract, but cancelling it. If she would file tomorrow, I would tell her, "thank you." It would be a relief.
In the end, it is indeed a social construct, but it not really about morals. It's just me and my wounded sense of pride and guilt.
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Jan 18, 2022 22:13:56 GMT -5
I had a hard time picking up the phone and scheduling my free 30 minute consultation, too. What I found when I finally did was that the session was all informational- a validation of my thought process regarding separation of assets. It gave me the confidence I needed to move forward. Ironically, after that meeting, my reluctance in drawing up the divorce papers was having to pay the retainer. In my state, there is a minimum 6 month separation period before divorce. I decided to tell my h I wanted a divorce before drawing up the papers. Mutually agreeing to the terms of the divorce prior to filing worked well for us. I left in September of 2019. We finalized our divorce in late 2020. My ex and I are still on very good terms today. Our financial situation was similar to yours. We both had good paying jobs- his salary was about 10K more than mine. We each waived spousal support and kept our own retirement accounts. We had no debt after we sold our home. We split the equity from the sale of the house. Divorce can be accomplished in a civil and equitable manner as long as both parties are willing. You will be much happier and less fearful once you have that conversation with a lawyer. You don't have to hire a lawyer right away to draw up the paperwork so don't let the fear of actually going through with it prevent you from seeing one. Fear was the biggest thing that held me back so I understand what you are feeling. I wish you the best! I am lucky insomuch as there is only a 30 day waiting period here. File one day, and then 30-60 days later (depending on the speed of the courthouse) you are done. Average in my county is 45 days. This is, of course, if everything is uncontested. I believe I have set everything up so that there literally can be nothing to contest. All we have left are debts, and since I am offering to take the lion's share so she has more disposable income I am hopeful she will see reason.
I don't want to tell her first because I don't want her to have a chance to put on a show. If I have already been to a lawyer and had some kind of agreement drawn up, then that's it. I mentioned before, when I have that "talk" it is to tell her it IS happening, not that I am thinking about it happening.
I am also trying to do as much as I can in advance so the lawyer costs less money. I will draw up as much of the agreement and paperwork as I can so it takes less time and lawyer charge. Oh, I guess I didn't mention her brother is a lawyer (albeit in a different state), but he has permission for limited practice here. She already has that advantage over me, so I don't want to overplay my hand and do something that might hurt me.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 18, 2022 23:17:08 GMT -5
allworkandnoplay, through all of this complex mess, there is only one thing you need to be true to, and that is yourself. You seem to be looking at all this honestly, and your choices are valid and well thought through.
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Post by ggold on Jan 22, 2022 21:24:18 GMT -5
We have a few things in common. Married over 25 years and having fear holding me back. I do have a longer no sex record though. I think it’s now about 15 ish years?? I was close to leaving. We both hired attorneys and was a few weeks shy of our 4 way meeting when the pandemic began. We both agreed to pause. My anxiety was at an all time high. We also have three kids who have different types of issues/needs. Here I am…still paused. We live a lot like you guys do. We don’t fight. Have basic conversations, mostly about kids/family/household. We have not slept in same bed in forever. I can’t even! I still don’t know the why. Why did he not want me? Now, it doesn’t matter. I haven’t been physically and emotionally well for over a year. I need strength and courage. I want to move on so badly.
Sending you positive vibes.
G
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