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Post by cagedadventurer on Oct 9, 2021 10:39:30 GMT -5
Thank you Handy for finding this post; amazingly I had been looking for this just last week as I thought I'd print and share it with my W. The short version is over an irrational offense surrounding her 2 new dogs in addition to the fact I had invoked her estranged sister's name in a conversation with my son regarding using his talents and gifts for opportunities, she hurled the fiery cannon balls which always include how my kids hate me, etc. Not the case, but it is what she'll do now that I can hold my own against her history of twisted wording, she's always right" beat downs and shaming. Anyway this EP article (which I had attributed to Apocrypha as I recall a brilliant summary from one of his posts) came to mind because as the haranguing continued she injected the statement " just because of one (1) thing", insistent that she is the ultimate mother and wife but for that "one thing" which reminded me of a conversation on 2001 when sex mentioned, her reply was "oh that". As though she really did not understand the mess it created and how its effects permeate EVERYTHING ELSE....negatively of course. So in addition to a deeply telling reaction from her when I asked her to help me pull a car cover over the car (Florida summer sun), it is abundantly clear that so many refusers are able to compartmentalize this sexless-ness yet with a surprisingly acceptable blank space as to the ancillary ramifications....that is the lack of all the flirts and associated fun, fun, funniness, laughter, joint planning of trips, life, the future, the bonding of a married couple who otherwise have similar ideals. The actual nature of the relationship that has developed over the course of these LT marriages is so far from where it should be but it is the acceptable normal for the refuser as they seem to value the "one thing" along with say... stocking the refrigerator or planning dinner, or going to buy the kids some clothes, whereby it holds no disproportionate weight, a weighted value that we KNOW it actually has and was designed to have. To that, my experience indicates that this blank space is legitimate; HOWEVER if it were then why do so many spouses find 1,000 ways to distract and avoid the "one thing".....the contradiction not worth speculating on, rather the acceptance of it due to kids and lifestyle; for now anyway.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Oct 9, 2021 10:49:30 GMT -5
There's not a lot of content in here written by refuser spouses, so there isn't a real lot of information about - "what goes through the mind of those spouses who refuse/withhold sex". And, of the few examples that there are (like Brother Handy linked) they may or may not be being truthful. And in truth, when you get down to the core problem, the reasons for sexual refusal don't actually matter a real lot. Whatever the reason (or the "why") might be, you are still equally disenfranchised. So any reason/why is pretty much as good as another. The fact that you are disenfranchised is important - vitally important. "Why" you are being disenfranchised, not so much. From an article I found regarding aversion to intimacy: www.goodtherapy.org/blog/dont-touch-me-understanding-your-sexual-aversion-0904154 This post inserted below stuck with me (emphasis on underlined part) and I wanted to share as it may be something the refused could actually share with a refuser to at least help pull and expose the answer from them as coffeeachiever was mildly attempting to do. For the sake of facing a mirror and being honest about their feelings at least for those of us who are ready for any outcome from the discussion. QUOTE FROM ANGIE: I was so happy to stumble across this article and the comments after a late night Google search on the issue that’s destroying our marriage . My husband is a pilot and flies internationally and is gone for 10 to 12 days stretches. He left for his trip yesterday furious with me that I had not been receptive to his advances the entire week he had been home. His last words as he walked to the cab were “well I guess you get an entire month off” . After the kids had left that morning he had tried dragging me to the bedroom for a quick round of sex before he left for his trip. I knew this would be coming and even considered making up a lie about an appointment so I could rush out the door and avoid the inevitable . Why couldn’t I just force myself to do it and get it over with it and allow some tranquility to resume? It had been a hard week and I just kept reliving the multiple arguments and his angry outbursts with me and the kids , and although we weren’t mad at each other at the moment , the thought of trying to fake sexual pleasure was beyond repulsive. This article and many of the comments brought me to tears as the realization that others are going through the same thing and there are some possible “treatments” . We have been married 20 years and have three teenage children . The agitation and hostility that arises from his sexual needs not being fulfilled to the extent he desires is felt by all of us in the home. You would think that my need to clear the house of that stress would push me to work past my aversion and just give him that relief so we can move on. Now I realize that all those years of doing just that may have been exactly what landed us in the mess we are in now. I have even spent the past 5 years “secretly” drinking in the evenings in hope that a strong buzz will relieve my anxieties and help me get the “job” done. That doesnt works any more. It’s of course no longer a secret that I am drinking and now just another sore spot between us. My MO is to now just hit the stage of passing out before he come to bed and the next morning is spent with unspoken hostilities and anger over the unrewarding previous evening. I never even feel the desire to drink and rarely have a single drop of alcohol when he is away on a trip. I avoid “date nights” and sometimes even instigate arguments or bring up topics that I know will lead to a heated discussion in an effort to give myself an “excuse” not to want to have sex. I love him very much , you would think that love would allow me to do anything for him , but it doesn’t ! He is a devoted husband and Dad and I know he deserves that sexual reward but Trying to do that is emotionally destroying me. I never will instigate plan or suggest a “date night” any more . I am too consumed with worry that I won’t be able to “pay the piper” at nights end or if I am able to force myself to get through it, I try to rush it along as much as I can. He can see that and this also becomes a source of unspoken hostility. When we are alone he will often walk up and hug me or try to give me a kiss or grab and rub my breasts , trying to get me in a playful mood. The moment that happens I become nauseous, agitated and panicky. My mind starts replaying every recent argument or fight and I am left fighting this strong desire to shove him off of me and yell at him. I obviously have realized this is not normal, but until I ran across a few articles like this , I was just plagued with a guilt that was leading me into a depression. Thank you for sharing your stories. I am hoping we are not to badly scarred and that there may be hope and some kind of treatment that can fix this huge problem of ours. I think the first step was realizing the problem is not just “ME” .
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Post by baza on Oct 9, 2021 17:52:43 GMT -5
Interesting quote you found there Brother cagedadventurer . I'd bet good money that if "Angie" had directly posted this on the ILIASM site she would have got the shit kicked out of her. But here, "Angie" paints a picture wherein she has gone past aversion to her husband, and also past avoidance to her husband, and is actually at the point of revulsion toward her husband. He (Mr Angie) comes across as a bit of a prick with his "multiple arguments and his angry outbursts with me and the kids" and it hardly seems surprising that Angie doesn't feel terribly attracted to these behaviours. Mr Angie is unhappy with the deal. Angie isn't too enthralled with it either. It doesn't seem to be doing either spouse much good. I reckon Angie and Mr Angie have both managed to drive this deal into the ditch in their own way. It actually seems that the deal has been in the ditch for quite a few years now. But who's right and who's wrong doesn't much matter.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 11, 2021 5:24:55 GMT -5
When I was sexually averse, I did get naturally horny once in a while. I still got tangled in my thinking about the range of not wishing to commit totally though, so I managed to hold something back. So, to spell it out.... "1st base" went out the window for you too? You reduced/eliminated it as an emotional barrier added to distinguish sex and love? Perhaps the reverse may signal an intensification of an almost two year reset? She may have been iffy about the whole thing. Committed to the platonic marriage but reluctant to enjoy physical interaction. Kinda hurts to think it was there, but that's trumped by the pleasure that it's subsided. Yet enthusiastic kissing may disappear again. It's still just a reset/remission. I don't dare call it "cured". Maybe the kissing is a canary in the coal mine. An unconscious barometer. Just now remembering, she had a falling out with her best friend about the same time. Perhaps the deprivation of a confidante leads to me being next in line for emotional support and that included a more intense aspect she did not have with her friend. I expect that to come back. It could be interesting to see if her nose goes back in her phone if the friend comes back. Do passionless refusers find emotional intimacy outlets they prefer and their presence hinders a need to reconnect with the refused and the physical intimacy doesn't build easily when emotional support isn't sought? An interesting "why" to chase; an "emotional affair" with a platonic new best friend. This could maybe be tested with a borderline personality disorder spouse. There's a tendency to make best friends with someone but get disillusioned by the first faux pas and abandon them and find someone new. In between these best friends, do they reconnect with their refused spouse? Dang, I wish I were independently wealthy. I'd be bankrolling some interesting psychological science. The anecdotes would make a heckuva coffee table book, even if the hypothesis was invalid.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 11, 2021 5:36:45 GMT -5
Sounds like someone was accessing the Di Lorenzos over at One Extraordinary Marriage. The 2x a week initiation, one from each spouse, was the key for turning the Di Lorenzo marriage around, and Wife and I used it, back in 2011 to restart our bed. The early series "The Why and How of our Now" on my blog explains how that worked for us. csl I listened to "One Extraordinary Marriage" when I had COVID last year. podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id349669609#iTunesPretty good. Stuff I knew, but explained well, concisely and in an entertaining way. Reminders of stuff that makes coupledom fun and good. The wife-host has a mindset I think many refusers would struggle to duplicate. She likes French fries a little. You need some investment in being half of a couple. Some refusers seem perfectly content with the status quo even if the refused is at critical mass.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 11, 2021 5:59:49 GMT -5
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 11, 2021 8:19:52 GMT -5
I'd bet good money that if "Angie" had directly posted this on the ILIASM site she would have got the shit kicked out of her. To our credit, the threads I've seen at ILIASM have been encouraging to refusers. They, like Angie, want a normal sexual marriage (much as Apocrypha points out often enough) My personal reaction is admiration for their bravery to post the viewpoint of the refuser and intense curiosity about what goes through their heads. Angie is a superb look inside at the twisted torture they put themselves through and can be difficult to escape. A "reset" could entail Mr. Angie making a determined, concerted effort to be on best behavior for a few of his lengthy stays at home. Bite your tongue. Work at finding nice things to say. Avoid roaming hands. Deliberately avoid the topic of sex. The flip side of that is she needs to monitor any softening of the aversion and attempt to take advantage. "Moods" can be fleeting. It may behoove her to drop everything the second she has so much as an affectionate thought. He's trying to give her what she wants, she can see whether she's able to grease the wheels. Being nice to a refuser can be so much easier if the refusals stop for a short while. When I was planning to date, I bought my wife flowers to remove any claim of neglect on my part (there were lots of other things, but this was an aggressively romantic act). After the reset, I made a point of buying those flowers every time we coupled. There were times that I "owed" her flowers. Let me tell you buying flowers for a non-refuser is not just helpful to the ambiance of the relationship, it is a joyful expression of cherishing your wife. I looked forward to this same act which was sometimes just "going through the motions." It can feed on itself. Angie will need to understand that he can fulfill his side but it must produce results at some point. Some refusers may overthink it and find earnest efforts as hollow because they'll see the goal as getting sex rather than making the refuser happy. Avoiding that trap of pessimism can be too difficult to overcome. Some may not want to. They want the marriage to end and won't or cannot admit it. The "ulterior motives" excuse is perfect for that. It's often true. Problem is, a refuser may not be able to find a partner without that ulterior motive and they'll suffer the same fate again and again, unless they find a platonic partner very much like themselves. I'm unsure how easy that would be. Sexual desire may present itself at first, feigned interest or genuine interest that can surprise even the former refuser, but when it wanes, the partner should wane close behind. That's really hoping for planets to align.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 12, 2021 12:42:06 GMT -5
When I was sexually averse, I did get naturally horny once in a while. I still got tangled in my thinking about the range of not wishing to commit totally though, so I managed to hold something back. So, to spell it out.... "1st base" went out the window for you too? You reduced/eliminated it as an emotional barrier added to distinguish sex and love? 1st base did go out the window, yes. I didn't think about it that strategically. It was more that I simply didn't initiate things unless I was sure I needed to carry them through. Those occasions were more about the state of my libido reaching a snapping point than they were about me signing on to an all-in romantic partnership. Given that the state of our discussion was all about sex and not about much that's upstream of it, it seemed to be welcome enough and a relief for both of us when it happened. But, yes, I was not otherwise given to unnecessary touching during those times. And I made myself busy or tired.
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Post by carl on Oct 18, 2021 3:38:38 GMT -5
njsojourner I have always wanted to know a similar thing.. what a refuser is actually thinking. Obviously I don’t know either and I think that even the first hand accounts of a refuser would i think likely be muddled and confused. The most obvious thing to me would be that a refuser just doesn’t like sex very much. I can bet that is by far the most common reason. I think there are less frequent times when a refuser has other reasons but I think these reasons don’t apply to a majority but do maybe serve as a fake shield or excuse more often.
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Post by carl on Oct 18, 2021 3:57:11 GMT -5
Just my opinion and I guess its not important, but in my case my wife used to come up with reason after reason related to anything that I ever did that hadn’t pleased her or anything that I hadn’t done but which she wanted me to do. It was all bullshit. A dangerous trap to fall into or path to follow in my case where sex is exploited for power and the blame for lack of true intimacy placed solely on the refused.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 18, 2021 5:57:32 GMT -5
Just my opinion and I guess its not important, but in my case my wife used to come up with reason after reason related to anything that I ever did that hadn’t pleased her or anything that I hadn’t done but which she wanted me to do. It was all bullshit. A dangerous trap to fall into or path to follow in my case where sex is exploited for power and the blame for lack of true intimacy placed solely on the refused. I've had thoughts about people stuck in that scenario, though that wasn't my situation. My wife knew it was abnormal to couple only seasonally. For those given past misbehaviors as a reason for absence of intimate love, I'd dare ask whether a lack of forgiveness is at fault. A refuser's failure to forgive and acknowledge efforts to rectify unwanted behavior can be blamed as well. Should it be little but a shield from intimacy the refuser doesn't want anyway, it behooves the refused to limit the length of time they can be kept "in the doghouse". If the refuser plans to never forgive or at the very least, overlook, or set aside past transgressions, then the hope of a reconciled union of man and woman (or the same sex version) wanes. This is a demonstration of negotiating in bad faith and abandonment of a traditional model of marriage has already taken place. To alter it further by abandoning marriage entirely or altering it to be more suitable (outsourcing) is a similarly unilateral move to a refuser shutting off physical intimacy, reasons be damned.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 18, 2021 8:59:37 GMT -5
njsojourner I have always wanted to know a similar thing.. what a refuser is actually thinking. Obviously I don’t know either and I think that even the first hand accounts of a refuser would i think likely be muddled and confused. The most obvious thing to me would be that a refuser just doesn’t like sex very much. I can bet that is by far the most common reason. I think there are less frequent times when a refuser has other reasons but I think these reasons don’t apply to a majority but do maybe serve as a fake shield or excuse more often. carl One former "refuser" has shared some of what was going through his mind in this thread. Aesexuality is rare diagnosis. It's also something that generally doesn't come on suddenly after marriage, and then disappear after the marriage has concluded. What I have observed commonly in my post-marriage dating years is that almost all dysfunctional post-separation marriages have included an extended period of celibacy, usually brought on by one partner distancing from the other partner and/or marriage. The celibacy followed a fundamental disconnection or resistance to the union. The sexuality resumes (often with a vengeance) when the marriage is over and new prospective partner is available - which does not support the thesis that the refuser "just doesn't like sex". It's the most common story in the world for a post divorce situation. Sex is great! Most people realize this. Sex with someone who you don't like, aren't attracted to, or who you feel compelled to have sex with when you really don't want to - not so much.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 18, 2021 16:12:53 GMT -5
njsojourner I have always wanted to know a similar thing.. what a refuser is actually thinking. Obviously I don’t know either and I think that even the first hand accounts of a refuser would i think likely be muddled and confused. The most obvious thing to me would be that a refuser just doesn’t like sex very much. I can bet that is by far the most common reason. I think there are less frequent times when a refuser has other reasons but I think these reasons don’t apply to a majority but do maybe serve as a fake shield or excuse more often The sexuality resumes (often with a vengeance) when the marriage is over and new prospective partner is available - which does not support the thesis that the refuser "just doesn't like sex". It's the most common story in the world for a post divorce situation. This is outside of my direct experience so I do not have a perspective, but it crossed my mind that the former refuser becoming sexually enthusiastic again may simply be to entice another poor sod into the trap.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 18, 2021 16:15:49 GMT -5
Just my opinion and I guess its not important, but in my case my wife used to come up with reason after reason related to anything that I ever did that hadn’t pleased her or anything that I hadn’t done but which she wanted me to do. It was all bullshit. A dangerous trap to fall into or path to follow in my case where sex is exploited for power and the blame for lack of true intimacy placed solely on the refused. This sounds like DARVO. Classic controlling behaviour. Sorry to hear about it.
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Post by carl on Oct 18, 2021 18:31:35 GMT -5
njsojourner I have always wanted to know a similar thing.. what a refuser is actually thinking. Obviously I don’t know either and I think that even the first hand accounts of a refuser would i think likely be muddled and confused. The most obvious thing to me would be that a refuser just doesn’t like sex very much. I can bet that is by far the most common reason. I think there are less frequent times when a refuser has other reasons but I think these reasons don’t apply to a majority but do maybe serve as a fake shield or excuse more often. carlOne former "refuser" has shared some of what was going through his mind in this thread. Aesexuality is rare diagnosis. It's also something that generally doesn't come on suddenly after marriage, and then reappear after the marriage has concluded. What I have observed commonly in my post-marriage dating years is that almost all dysfunctional post-separation marriages have included an extended period of celibacy, usually brought on by one partner distancing from the other partner and/or marriage. The celibacy followed a fundamental disconnection or resistance to the union. The sexuality resumes (often with a vengeance) when the marriage is over and new prospective partner is available - which does not support the thesis that the refuser "just doesn't like sex". It's the most common story in the world for a post divorce situation. Sex is great! Most people realize this. Sex with someone who you don't like, aren't attracted to, or who you feel compelled to have sex with when you really don't want to - not so much. Sure, nobody wants sex with somebody they don’t like. I don’t either. But there are those also who don’t like sex and find a reason not to want it. Its not hard to tell the difference. I wonder if my wife will find somebody she “likes” enough. We’ll have to see.
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