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Post by flyingsolo on Mar 17, 2021 23:03:49 GMT -5
So another quick update - my wife has been short and basically non-communicative with me. She still, after about three weeks, has not procured an attorney, which is holding up serving her the divorce papers, but that's about to change. She decided yesterday morning without us discussing it first that last night was when "I" was going to tell the kids that "I" had filed for divorce. While I had hoped that this was going to be a cooperative process for the benefit of our kids and to show a "united" front of sorts that we were both deciding together that we weren't happy, I see that she fully intends now to put the kids in the middle and make it very clear that I am the one breaking up the family (despite her withholding intimacy for a decade - which of course I can't tell them) because "I" wasn't happy. So she's gone the good parent bad parent route to make herself look good. Fine, I played her game and told the kids last night because I need to move forward. She sat there and did nothing other than give me dirty looks. The reactions ranged from my middle daughter sobbing, to my oldest (son) being angry. My youngest daughter, who I thought would take it hardest of all, actually gave me a big hug without crying and said "I'm sorry daddy. I'm sorry it didn't work out and I just want you and mommy to be happy, even if you aren't together". Tears man. So I have some work to do with my son. He seems to be taking it the hardest, but he's also almost "out of the nest" as he will be leaving for college this summer. Both of my daughters were happy and smiling this morning and seemed to be somewhat back to normal, so I think they are going to be fine. My wife, on the other hand, I am really going to have to watch. She's proven to me that she isn't going to cooperate and is going to end up making it more difficult on herself in the process as the way I handle her is going to change. I really tried to take the high road and will do so with my kids and with regard to my wife in front of my kids, but this woman is crazy and manipulative. Godspeed flyingsolo ! Slightly ahead of you and the alienation is in full swing here. It is fucking heartbreaking. Spend as much quality time with them as you can. Don’t talk bad about your ex, as much as she may deserve it. Also- might be a good idea to get close to your kids’ best friends’ parents ASAP if possible. My ex sure as hell seems to have used these alliances as weapons against me, among other covert tactics. They are teens. They don’t want to spend any time with me. They stay in their rooms every minute of my parenting time. Won’t even so much as go for a walk with me, unless I coerce them into it. Perhaps they would treat their mom the same way, but for one thing - she takes them to see their friends. We’re talking parties. Ski trips. Dungeons and dragons matches that go on for hours. The works. Last month, they asked to be picked up 8 ours early to go to a friend party with mom. I said OK. 2 weeks later: same thing. “Can we go to another party?” “OK I’m going to take you this time” “No way dad! That would be totally awkward. You were never that close to them.” “I was close to them. I picked up O. Every week from church. Etc. etc.” “No Dad it’s too weird.” “T’s dad got a divorce. Both T’s divorced parents came to our house for the Halloween party and I was glad his dad came. I had a good time and I think he did too.” “Yeah but T has a good relationship with his dad.” “How do you know that? Does T talk to you about his dad?” “No.” “Do you talk to T about me?” “No.” “You don’t know a thing about his relationship with his dad, do you?” “No. But you can’t take us. That would be soooo awkward.” “OK Your asking for a whole day of my parenting time. Again. If I don’t take you, you’re not going.” So they stayed in their rooms, more distant than ever. 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 Get close to their friends and friends parents, man. Just do it. Right now. So here's a quick idea - why not ask them what it would take to have a better relationship with them? Take them out to dinner. Get them out of their rooms and away from their phones. I don't envision having that problem with my kids, so I hope that doesn't happen. I kinda feel like our quality time will actually improve once I am out of the house and have my own place.
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Post by flyingsolo on Mar 18, 2021 6:49:41 GMT -5
Well I am sorry to hear that. All you can do is work on your part of how you interact with them.
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Post by saarinista on Mar 18, 2021 11:45:46 GMT -5
Dies anyone kniw if psychologists recommend telling kids or not telling them if in fact sexual brokenness is the reason for a divorce? I have no idea.
Seems to me it needn't be a secret necessarily if you have older children who know what sex is, but what's the official recommendation?
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Post by baza on Mar 18, 2021 21:21:22 GMT -5
If you are getting divorced, then sooner or later you are going to have to acquaint your kids with this fact.
If you are actually talking about telling your kids "why" you are getting divorced then I think it is a matter of horses for courses.
For example, you'd probably give your aged grandmother one story, you'd probably tell your best friend a more detailed story.
Personally, I have two kids (7 year age gap) and when I told them (individually) the news I went "age appropriate" and didn't go into "why" at all other than to say "you've probably seen that your mother and I have not been getting along for some time now". Now I 'could' have listed 5 different things that had brought the split about (sex would have been one of them), but it would have come across as me blaming her for the situation, and I didn't want to do that - as it would not have helped any in the orderly dismantling of the ILIASM situation.
So personally, I think "your mother is a drunk" or "your father is gambler" or "your mother is nuts" or "your father has trashed the finances" or "your mother won't fuck me" are to be avoided.
In the fullness of time, these subjects may come to the fore in conversations between you and your kids, but as far as forming part of the discussion when you tell them of the divorce, I reckon you are best to forget the "why".
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Post by flyingsolo on Mar 18, 2021 21:44:19 GMT -5
Dies anyone kniw if psychologists recommend telling kids or not telling them if in fact sexual brokenness is the reason for a divorce? I have no idea. Seems to me it needn't be a secret necessarily if you have older children who know what sex is, but what's the official recommendation? Well, my oldest is 17 and I'm still not sure I want to tell him. I don't want him thinking any less of his mom. She is his mom and I wouldn't want to do anything to change his opinion of her. I think I am going to try to leave the explanation as vanilla as possible in that we just weren't communicating effectively, weren't meeting each other's needs, and weren't happy and I didn't see it getting better after 4 1/2 years of counseling. It actually got worse. I have no problem admitting this to him. My wife (who claims she was "blindsided" by my divorce filing of all things) I am sure will probably never admit to the kids that she was unhappy also so she can preserve her perfect image she has in her mind of being the perfect wife and mother and a victim. I'm not gonna wreck that for my kids, but if they start blaming me or I sense anger from them toward me, I will have to be creative about how I explain the truth to not cause further damage.
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Post by isthisit on Mar 19, 2021 3:03:39 GMT -5
flyingsolo my children were 17 and 14 when I ended my marriage, and my H responded with similar astonishment. He also described himself as “blindsided”. Quite how this can be the case after 15 years of explicit conversations about my ever increasing dissatisfaction in the marriage I am not sure. I told my children separately, and I did it alone (around 4 weeks after I told H as we had a holidays coming up and I didn’t want it compromised) as H was unable to face the conversation. I took a similar tack as you describe, just that it wasn’t working, hadn’t been for some time and that I had reached levels of unhappiness that began to really concern me. I explained how this would change things in the near future and our plans for the mid-term. My 17 year old son was a bit shocked but surprised me by telling me that he knew the marriage was in trouble and also that I was unhappy. There was never any shouting or aggro in our house, just what was missing really, which I thought was well hidden. Uh, no it seems. He was upset for a day or two but broached me a few days later to support me. He told me that I did the right thing, and we have had a few conversations since about relationships, and everyone’s responsibility to ensure that they are authentically happy in a relationship. In short, resilience is a great trait but you can have too much of it, and in marriages an excess can be a quick road to disaster. For years I stayed because had felt guilty about putting my needs before those of the children. Today I feel wise for providing a role model for being brave to ensure your sanity. My 14 year old daughter was briefly upset and then said “I don’t want to live with dad”. She also knew things were less than optimal and felt very strongly from the get go my choice was reasonable and has been very supportive of me. H has been the problem. He required 5 months off work after I dropped the bomb and there were periods when I was concerned for him. He made no attempt to disguise his abject misery at the hands of my cruelty which made him look like a complete tit as the children had seen full well what I had endured. What he never does is criticise me to the children, nor I him. I continue with my care and thoughtfulness with him because this is who I am and he’s just not taking that away from me. They see that adults can be civil and supportive post split. As they should. At times H has been angry, uncommunicative, obstructive, selfish, kind and helpful. He’s also had a go at dating (which was a disaster). But the bit that drives me crackers though is the victim thing. Two years on he remains firmly in “what you did to me” territory. I held my temper for a long time but recently let rip about this. I reminded him that he had a perfectly wonderful W and was very happy. He knew full well that I was increasingly unhappy and this did not concern him at all as everything was great for him. I don’t shout very often in life, I don’t see the need for it, but I goddamned bellowed: “When you love someone their happiness is supposed to be as important to you as your own. You didn’t listen, you didn’t care, you didn’t change. Take some responsibility for yourself and give over with the victim thing”. So, the kids are fine. They knew more than I realised and have benefitted from my choice. Incidentally they will never know about the SM aspect from me. That would be uncomfortable for them, and anyway there is plenty of other dysfunction for them to focus on. I realised recently that if I could endure that marriage, coping with a split is a cake walk in comparison.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 19, 2021 6:48:39 GMT -5
...I don't want him thinking any less of his mom. ...I think I am going to try to leave the explanation as vanilla as possible in that we just weren't communicating effectively, weren't meeting each other's needs, and weren't happy and I didn't see it getting better after 4 1/2 years of counseling. ... My wife (who claims she was "blindsided" by my divorce filing of all things) I am sure will probably never admit to the kids that she was unhappy also so she can preserve her perfect image she has in her mind of being the perfect wife and mother and a victim. I'm not gonna wreck that for my kids, but if they start blaming me or I sense anger from them toward me, I will have to be creative about how I explain the truth to not cause further damage. I'd like to hear what we could come up with as a diplomatic explanation for ending a SM. When we give generic answers, that'll work if it's bilateral. You already have a potential lover waiting in the wings. I could easily see how she jumps to conclusions and lets the kids do the same. Your old flame may have been a catalyst, but not the cause. She allowed you to establish for yourself that being in a loveless marriage was not mandatory. In the absence of a rationale on your part, the ex-spouse can fill in the blanks. I'll take an initial stab at it: "Your mother and I have different ideas about what marriage should be. We did an awful lot of it well. She had a practical side that had its advantages but didn't accommodate my dreamy vision of marriage. My sense of having adventures together like fairy tale romances was nothing she wanted, but something I want so bad as to become a need. She wants economic strength, a healthy household, and happy kids and our focus should be on those things. Me? I get ideas of wasting a lot of time on beaches or horse carriage rides. If I get none of that, I start to feel deprived. If she has to come on these little trips I have in mind, she feels like she's wasting time and money. Neither of us is wrong, but the two don't work together. We can't meet in the middle. I can't make myself focus on the nuts and bolts that make a household work any more than I already do. She can't justify the time and expense of any more adventures than we already take. Dreams are very big things, and strength and survival can also be seen as critically important. " Need to tighten it up. But maybe that euphemistic packaging would work?
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 19, 2021 9:26:50 GMT -5
There are a few things that teens don't ever want to think about. One is their parents having sex or wanting to have sex. Another is a convincing argument that their parent is a piece of shit. The latter is worse, and sets them up for all kinds of conflict that they cannot resolve that comes out in disorganized ways.
I wouldn't get into waxing philosophical about the qualities of the two of you, and where you differ - to the kids. There really isn't a way you can do this that won't be taken as an attack. I think I'd focus on "what's in it for them" - from your kids perspective, and leave the dynamics inside a box.
Marriage and family are going to mean different things for kids than for you. While they will see them as a complete whole thing with no borders, being a parent is a different thing from being a husband or wife. Their concern will be what is constant.
I like this format and sequence. Context - 1. what we all agree is working (commitment to parenting, love of children, cooperation, friendliness, practical things) 2. what we all agree is observably not working. (fighting, unhappy, lack of romantic connection, loneliness, future goals) 3. what is the change? 4. what are the tradeoffs - what's going to be more challenging as a result of the change, for them? 5. what are the benefits that will be realized, after the change is accomplished?
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Post by flyingsolo on Mar 19, 2021 15:52:02 GMT -5
Had a great lunch with my son today. He admitted that he knew things were off in our marriage, so the announcement didn't surprise him and he isn't angry, just disappointed. He is more worried about how his younger sisters are going to cope with it since he is off to college in a few months. I told him I wasn't going anywhere, that it wasn't their fault (the kids), that I wasn't going to talk bad about his mom and that I still loved her as their mom and what a good mom she is, that I wasn't going to put them (the kids) in the middle of this, and that I was trying to take the high road on everything to make this as painless as possible for everyone. I told him I wasn't angry with my wife, but that things just weren't working and that I struggled with my decision for years but it just created too much anxiety and stress for me in my life to live in an unhappy marriage where I constantly felt lonely.
He and I went over to see the apartment and he really liked it. So, things are OK with my son I think. I'll need to do the same thing with my girls at some point. He felt they would be fine as well after some time to adjust and I feel the same way.
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Post by sadkat on Mar 19, 2021 20:08:27 GMT -5
That’s really good flyingsolo. I’m glad you were able to share your thoughts with your son. It’s a very good first step. I’m glad things worked out. Your son sounds like a very mature young man.
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Post by saarinista on Mar 20, 2021 0:41:31 GMT -5
Sounds good to me. Just stay the course. Your wife will adjust. Your kids will adjust. And you will adjust.
No one likes change at first, but sadly, things changed for you long ago when your wife checked out. You're just changing the status of your life legally and residentially to reflect the reality of the situation.
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