A very long update and I welcome your thoughts/opinions
Feb 5, 2021 14:56:21 GMT -5
snowman12345, shamwow, and 2 more like this
Post by flyingsolo on Feb 5, 2021 14:56:21 GMT -5
Hi gang:
I haven't been on the forums in a long time. I figured I would post an update as a lot of things have happened since the last time I logged on, and it's a lot so buckle up. So, to rehash, my wife and I have been in a marriage which is absolutely and completely sexless and has been for four years this February, and basically sexless for over ten. I've struggled with the decision to stay or go, particularly in the last two years, but I know I am not happy and I am not living my best life. I am walking around on eggshells not to upset hers. I have three kids and two businesses, which makes the decision harder as there would be significant ramifications to a divorce. I turn 50 this year, so I still feel somewhat young, but I'm no spring chicken anymore. I love my wife, but we are not emotionally connected (and haven't been in a long time). I can safely say I am not "in love" with my wife (she herself recently said "we aren't lovers"). I value her as my partner for the past 25 years, as the mother of my children, and as a person, but I don't see us fixing our sexless marriage issues and our intimacy issues as I believe it's just too much water under the bridge and too much time spent disconnected. She has a wall up around her emotions that is impregnable. She gets cold, defensive or angry and believes it all my fault whenever I even try to engage her in a discussion regarding the lack of intimacy in our marriage. Four years of marriage counseling hasn't really moved the needle or weakened the wall and I feel further disconnected from her than I did when we started. I have spent a lot of time thinking about what "being done" with my marriage would look like. I'd have to move out, we'd have to agree on alimony. Child support is formula driven. It would be expensive and set me back in my retirement plans, but I've done the math and I think I can do it. I've met with an attorney twice over the past two years to refine my calculations and all I'd have to do is pick up the phone and tell her to file the divorce paperwork and it would begin. I've visualized what living alone would look like, what seeing my kids every few days versus every day would look like, what coming home to an empty house would look like and feel like. I ask myself, "would you be OK with this?". I think I would be OK with it if it meant getting to be who or what I envisioned I would always be. It would take some getting used to, especially on holidays, but I think I could do it in order to begin to live my best life because I've definitely been sleepwalking through it for the past 10 years, if not longer. I don't want my kids growing up in a house where their parents are not affectionate to each other and sleep in separate rooms (which is exactly where we have been for two + years). That isn't a good illustration of what a healthy marriage looks like. Although we really don't fight (because we are solidly in the indifference phase of fixing our marriage), I think my kids can tell something isn't right and they've even commented when my wife and I do have some sort of disagreement "why don't you guys just get divorced".
In the meantime, I've begun seeing a counselor to work through my feelings about the marriage (whether it's fixable or not, etc.) and some other emotional issues I've had in the past with my dad, who I lost two years ago (more on that later). My wife's main argument is that I am "emotionally unavailable". I write this because it is important in a part of the story that is coming. I also acknowledge that I made a mistake 15 years ago when I had a brief affair when our marriage was looking like it was coming to an end which caused my wife considerable emotional harm. I have owned up to that mistake and accept responsibility for that error and we've had two kids since then so (wrongfully) I believed she had forgiven me. I have also acknowledged that I worked a lot in the past. I was growing a business and our deal was for her to be home for the kids (they are homeschooled) and for me to work. My business has thrived and been very successful, at the expense of time at home. I love my business and enjoy my career so a lot of times it doesn't feel like work but I know I need a better work-life balance and have adjusted some things (like opening a new office closer to home).
I've also begun seeing a personal trainer three times a week and the days that I don't see the trainer I do cardio on my own. I'm in decent shape, but would love to get my abs back and build some more strength and flexibility. It's only been a few weeks and I already feel better about myself. My goal is to be my best self, emotionally and physically and my sexless marriage and lack of connection with my wife is wearing me down. I've also made a bucket list of items I'd like to accomplish and things I'd like to do over the next five years. A lot of in involves traveling or experiences I want to have. This journey and the steps to being a better me have led me to see the current state of my marriage even more clearly, the state of indifference that we are in, and I've come to realize that we probably aren't going to fix it. The damage is too great. My wife seems to be willing to live in the state and focus on her faith and the kids, in her mind waiting on me to change. In my mind I've made great strides at changing and being a better person, but they go unnoticed. I've tried to direct some focus back to the marriage and I don't seem to get anywhere.
The new counselor I am seeing is also a marriage counselor. (it's one of the reasons I chose him). I asked my spouse if she would be willing to start seeing him with me to work on our marriage and she said "no, probably not". She stated that "I've had four years to make changes" and apparently she doesn't think I have.
Ok, so now that you have all of the background of where I am at, I want to add a wrinkle. I've reconnected with an old girlfriend (I dated her over 25 years ago) over the last three or four years. It started very casually and innocently. When my dad died, he and I were not close but were working on trying to fix that and it really bothered me that we never got the chance to fix it. I knew she was having problems in her relationship with her dad so I reached out to her to really encourage her to see if her relationship with her dad could be fixed before it was too late.
It all started as maybe a 30 minute phone call with her and then no communication for six months. This went on for a couple years, chatting every now and then about life and experiences just to check in with each other but nothing regular, nothing serious and we were distant friends if anything. As the years went on, we kept in touch and learned that we have a lot of life experiences in common over the past 25 years including silly stuff like having the exact same breed of dog, both having our gallbladders out, etc. As we talked further, she shared with me that she had gone through a divorce 9 years ago. I started to share some of the issues I was having with my marriage and she was really able to help me process the feelings and work through a lot of issues as she'd gone through many of them also. She's shared all the things that she's dealt with after he marriage dissolved, the challenges she's faced in becoming a happier, healthier person, etc. It is very enlightening to see and I am very proud for her of the woman she has become. She's been very supportive and up until about a month ago, the conversation has always been non-sexual and more emotional and catching up on each other's lives. She's asked me for advice on guys she's been dating and we've shared updates on our families, etc.
About a month ago things changed as we began talking about some of the issues she was having with a guy she was seeing (not knowing how to please a woman, being selfish in bed, etc.) It started off jokingly, but after awhile she really started valuing the input I was giving her about how to interact better with a guy she was seeing at the time. She asked it I wanted to have a Zoom call (we had either been talking on the phone or emailing up to this point). About two weeks ago we started talking over Zoom for virtual cocktails and we just clicked. Our first call lasted five hours. We both love seeing each other for the first time since 1995 (she lives 500 miles away FYI). There are times where we might talk for hours during the day and still not run out of things to say or ask about each other. I am 100% open, honest and emotionally available to her and I don't have anything to hide from her. I've shared my journey with her and she has been 100% supportive. She hasn't put any pressure on me to leave my marriage, only to do what I feel I need to do to be the best me. She's been open and honest with me as well and we both admit that it's been absolutely awesome to be able to share our thoughts and feelings and talk openly and honestly. I don't think I have ever (in 25 years) had this type of open, honest and heartfelt dialogue with my wife that I am able to have with her. I want this type of relationship and I really began to feel like I started wanting it with her (my friend).
Over the last week, her issues with the guy she was seeing has led us to talk more about sexuality, shared fantasies, desires, things we would do if we were together (hypothetically), etc. and realized that we are totally compatible in many ways (including sexually) and would be incredible together (we have a past, but we've also both learned so much about who we are and want to be over these decades). She knows I am in a sexless marriage and debating leaving after counseling has failed. We've talked about whether a long-distance relationship could work if my marriage ends and after I take some time to heal from it (we don't want to rush anything if it does end and I wouldn't want to) and we both agreed that we would be willing to make it work, for each other because we do want to be together. We've gone as far as discussing that she can't be the reason my marriage ends and I have to make that decision whether or not she will be there after it all ends. This feels like something special enough where she would be willing to wait, but it also isn't something where I would want to jump right back into another relationship. I also would never want my kids to have any belief that my marriage ended because of her because she's such a great person and I would want my kids to see that and only that. She did not cause all the past issues in my sexless marriage. The lack of an emotional connection and the failure of my wife and I to communicate did.
I realize at this point we've crossed into an emotional affair (which I have been trying hard to avoid) and I've talked at great lengths with her about it. I don't want to hurt her if by some chance my wife and I find a way to reconcile, but I also don't want to hurt my wife if I can avoid it. Since we dated all those years ago, we've never met face to face and other than virtually on Zoom, I haven't seen her in over 25 years. However, back when we were dating, I always felt like she was "the one" but we both agreed back then that our timing wasn't right and that perhaps we'd meet sometime again in the future if we were ever supposed to be together. Fate has intervened and we've somehow found each other again and the relationship has been electric. This relationship, which started innocently enough has turned into a brushfire very quickly, quicker than both of us thought it would because we have so much in common.
I know this all seems a little crazy. I'm still married although it is hanging by a thread and I'm not sure what I am still hanging onto. Over a decade in a sexless marriage has been hell and my wife and I have both said we are "done" multiple times. I see the items I put on my bucket list and know if I stay in my marriage, none of those will ever happen. A lot of them are places I want to go or do with a partner (catch a Red Socks game at Fenway, which means a trip to Boston and bar hopping for a long weekend, fly to California and spend a week driving up the PCH, stopping at beaches, and small romantic hotels along the way), going back to Europe, etc. My new (old) friend and I compared bucket lists and we have some of the same items on ours (including the Socks game and weekend in Boston). We didn't share the lists in advance so this was totally a spontaneous match. We seem very compatible. Actually I know we are and I know, even though she's 500 miles away (which is a short plane flight as we are both outside major cities), we could make it work and would be willing to do what it takes so that we don't lose each other again.
I know the correct answer is to stop all contact with her and resolve the marriage issues. If we divorce, I should wait to heal and then when I am ready go find her if she is still available. She has offered all of this (to stop the contact, to let me either fix or dissolve the marriage, to let me take time to heal). The problem is I don't want to stop talking to her because she is just such a fascinating person to talk to and I don't want to push her away because I'm afraid I am going to lose her again. However, she won't admit it, but on the off-chance I fix things with my wife, I know it would probably really hurt her which would really bother me.
I was planning on talking to my wife today (which has now been postponed until tomorrow), to have a in depth discussion at how broken I feel our marriage is and acknowledging that a lot of that is probably my fault. Honestly, she deserves someone that is going to make her happy and that she feels connected with. I don't think I'm that guy or we wouldn't be where we are today. We both deserve to be happy and I don't think we are happy in our marriage. I honestly don't feel that I want to fix my marriage anymore at this point.
I should add that my biggest concern is my kids. One is off to college this fall and will be out of the house, but I also have a 13 year old and an 11 year old. I can't see doing this 7 more years until they are both in college. I can't take it. Everyone I have talked to has told me it will take some adjustment if you divorce, but if you focus on co-parenting and making the kids feel loved and safe, they will turn out fine. I just worry that my wife will be vindictive and try to keep me from seeing them. Everyone I've talked to has also reassured me that I deserve to be happy. Life is too short to be unhappy in a marriage.
So, that's my very long-winded summary. What the hell do I do? On one hand I lose my marriage, a lot of wealth, my house and only see my kids part-time, but potentially ultimately gain the passion filled "rest of my life" relationship I've always longed for and haven't had for 25 years. On the other, I stay in my unhappy sexless marriage on the hope that we can still find a way to fix it, but then I know I have to let my friend go and stop all contact, which would be so hard to do. I know I will always have "what if" regrets if I do that. Is this one of those moments in life where you just have to take a leap of faith and say "I need this for me" and file for divorce with the goal of starting on a new path of what my life is supposed to be (whether or not it is with my friend) or am I just being short-sighted and naive?
I would welcome your thoughts.
I haven't been on the forums in a long time. I figured I would post an update as a lot of things have happened since the last time I logged on, and it's a lot so buckle up. So, to rehash, my wife and I have been in a marriage which is absolutely and completely sexless and has been for four years this February, and basically sexless for over ten. I've struggled with the decision to stay or go, particularly in the last two years, but I know I am not happy and I am not living my best life. I am walking around on eggshells not to upset hers. I have three kids and two businesses, which makes the decision harder as there would be significant ramifications to a divorce. I turn 50 this year, so I still feel somewhat young, but I'm no spring chicken anymore. I love my wife, but we are not emotionally connected (and haven't been in a long time). I can safely say I am not "in love" with my wife (she herself recently said "we aren't lovers"). I value her as my partner for the past 25 years, as the mother of my children, and as a person, but I don't see us fixing our sexless marriage issues and our intimacy issues as I believe it's just too much water under the bridge and too much time spent disconnected. She has a wall up around her emotions that is impregnable. She gets cold, defensive or angry and believes it all my fault whenever I even try to engage her in a discussion regarding the lack of intimacy in our marriage. Four years of marriage counseling hasn't really moved the needle or weakened the wall and I feel further disconnected from her than I did when we started. I have spent a lot of time thinking about what "being done" with my marriage would look like. I'd have to move out, we'd have to agree on alimony. Child support is formula driven. It would be expensive and set me back in my retirement plans, but I've done the math and I think I can do it. I've met with an attorney twice over the past two years to refine my calculations and all I'd have to do is pick up the phone and tell her to file the divorce paperwork and it would begin. I've visualized what living alone would look like, what seeing my kids every few days versus every day would look like, what coming home to an empty house would look like and feel like. I ask myself, "would you be OK with this?". I think I would be OK with it if it meant getting to be who or what I envisioned I would always be. It would take some getting used to, especially on holidays, but I think I could do it in order to begin to live my best life because I've definitely been sleepwalking through it for the past 10 years, if not longer. I don't want my kids growing up in a house where their parents are not affectionate to each other and sleep in separate rooms (which is exactly where we have been for two + years). That isn't a good illustration of what a healthy marriage looks like. Although we really don't fight (because we are solidly in the indifference phase of fixing our marriage), I think my kids can tell something isn't right and they've even commented when my wife and I do have some sort of disagreement "why don't you guys just get divorced".
In the meantime, I've begun seeing a counselor to work through my feelings about the marriage (whether it's fixable or not, etc.) and some other emotional issues I've had in the past with my dad, who I lost two years ago (more on that later). My wife's main argument is that I am "emotionally unavailable". I write this because it is important in a part of the story that is coming. I also acknowledge that I made a mistake 15 years ago when I had a brief affair when our marriage was looking like it was coming to an end which caused my wife considerable emotional harm. I have owned up to that mistake and accept responsibility for that error and we've had two kids since then so (wrongfully) I believed she had forgiven me. I have also acknowledged that I worked a lot in the past. I was growing a business and our deal was for her to be home for the kids (they are homeschooled) and for me to work. My business has thrived and been very successful, at the expense of time at home. I love my business and enjoy my career so a lot of times it doesn't feel like work but I know I need a better work-life balance and have adjusted some things (like opening a new office closer to home).
I've also begun seeing a personal trainer three times a week and the days that I don't see the trainer I do cardio on my own. I'm in decent shape, but would love to get my abs back and build some more strength and flexibility. It's only been a few weeks and I already feel better about myself. My goal is to be my best self, emotionally and physically and my sexless marriage and lack of connection with my wife is wearing me down. I've also made a bucket list of items I'd like to accomplish and things I'd like to do over the next five years. A lot of in involves traveling or experiences I want to have. This journey and the steps to being a better me have led me to see the current state of my marriage even more clearly, the state of indifference that we are in, and I've come to realize that we probably aren't going to fix it. The damage is too great. My wife seems to be willing to live in the state and focus on her faith and the kids, in her mind waiting on me to change. In my mind I've made great strides at changing and being a better person, but they go unnoticed. I've tried to direct some focus back to the marriage and I don't seem to get anywhere.
The new counselor I am seeing is also a marriage counselor. (it's one of the reasons I chose him). I asked my spouse if she would be willing to start seeing him with me to work on our marriage and she said "no, probably not". She stated that "I've had four years to make changes" and apparently she doesn't think I have.
Ok, so now that you have all of the background of where I am at, I want to add a wrinkle. I've reconnected with an old girlfriend (I dated her over 25 years ago) over the last three or four years. It started very casually and innocently. When my dad died, he and I were not close but were working on trying to fix that and it really bothered me that we never got the chance to fix it. I knew she was having problems in her relationship with her dad so I reached out to her to really encourage her to see if her relationship with her dad could be fixed before it was too late.
It all started as maybe a 30 minute phone call with her and then no communication for six months. This went on for a couple years, chatting every now and then about life and experiences just to check in with each other but nothing regular, nothing serious and we were distant friends if anything. As the years went on, we kept in touch and learned that we have a lot of life experiences in common over the past 25 years including silly stuff like having the exact same breed of dog, both having our gallbladders out, etc. As we talked further, she shared with me that she had gone through a divorce 9 years ago. I started to share some of the issues I was having with my marriage and she was really able to help me process the feelings and work through a lot of issues as she'd gone through many of them also. She's shared all the things that she's dealt with after he marriage dissolved, the challenges she's faced in becoming a happier, healthier person, etc. It is very enlightening to see and I am very proud for her of the woman she has become. She's been very supportive and up until about a month ago, the conversation has always been non-sexual and more emotional and catching up on each other's lives. She's asked me for advice on guys she's been dating and we've shared updates on our families, etc.
About a month ago things changed as we began talking about some of the issues she was having with a guy she was seeing (not knowing how to please a woman, being selfish in bed, etc.) It started off jokingly, but after awhile she really started valuing the input I was giving her about how to interact better with a guy she was seeing at the time. She asked it I wanted to have a Zoom call (we had either been talking on the phone or emailing up to this point). About two weeks ago we started talking over Zoom for virtual cocktails and we just clicked. Our first call lasted five hours. We both love seeing each other for the first time since 1995 (she lives 500 miles away FYI). There are times where we might talk for hours during the day and still not run out of things to say or ask about each other. I am 100% open, honest and emotionally available to her and I don't have anything to hide from her. I've shared my journey with her and she has been 100% supportive. She hasn't put any pressure on me to leave my marriage, only to do what I feel I need to do to be the best me. She's been open and honest with me as well and we both admit that it's been absolutely awesome to be able to share our thoughts and feelings and talk openly and honestly. I don't think I have ever (in 25 years) had this type of open, honest and heartfelt dialogue with my wife that I am able to have with her. I want this type of relationship and I really began to feel like I started wanting it with her (my friend).
Over the last week, her issues with the guy she was seeing has led us to talk more about sexuality, shared fantasies, desires, things we would do if we were together (hypothetically), etc. and realized that we are totally compatible in many ways (including sexually) and would be incredible together (we have a past, but we've also both learned so much about who we are and want to be over these decades). She knows I am in a sexless marriage and debating leaving after counseling has failed. We've talked about whether a long-distance relationship could work if my marriage ends and after I take some time to heal from it (we don't want to rush anything if it does end and I wouldn't want to) and we both agreed that we would be willing to make it work, for each other because we do want to be together. We've gone as far as discussing that she can't be the reason my marriage ends and I have to make that decision whether or not she will be there after it all ends. This feels like something special enough where she would be willing to wait, but it also isn't something where I would want to jump right back into another relationship. I also would never want my kids to have any belief that my marriage ended because of her because she's such a great person and I would want my kids to see that and only that. She did not cause all the past issues in my sexless marriage. The lack of an emotional connection and the failure of my wife and I to communicate did.
I realize at this point we've crossed into an emotional affair (which I have been trying hard to avoid) and I've talked at great lengths with her about it. I don't want to hurt her if by some chance my wife and I find a way to reconcile, but I also don't want to hurt my wife if I can avoid it. Since we dated all those years ago, we've never met face to face and other than virtually on Zoom, I haven't seen her in over 25 years. However, back when we were dating, I always felt like she was "the one" but we both agreed back then that our timing wasn't right and that perhaps we'd meet sometime again in the future if we were ever supposed to be together. Fate has intervened and we've somehow found each other again and the relationship has been electric. This relationship, which started innocently enough has turned into a brushfire very quickly, quicker than both of us thought it would because we have so much in common.
I know this all seems a little crazy. I'm still married although it is hanging by a thread and I'm not sure what I am still hanging onto. Over a decade in a sexless marriage has been hell and my wife and I have both said we are "done" multiple times. I see the items I put on my bucket list and know if I stay in my marriage, none of those will ever happen. A lot of them are places I want to go or do with a partner (catch a Red Socks game at Fenway, which means a trip to Boston and bar hopping for a long weekend, fly to California and spend a week driving up the PCH, stopping at beaches, and small romantic hotels along the way), going back to Europe, etc. My new (old) friend and I compared bucket lists and we have some of the same items on ours (including the Socks game and weekend in Boston). We didn't share the lists in advance so this was totally a spontaneous match. We seem very compatible. Actually I know we are and I know, even though she's 500 miles away (which is a short plane flight as we are both outside major cities), we could make it work and would be willing to do what it takes so that we don't lose each other again.
I know the correct answer is to stop all contact with her and resolve the marriage issues. If we divorce, I should wait to heal and then when I am ready go find her if she is still available. She has offered all of this (to stop the contact, to let me either fix or dissolve the marriage, to let me take time to heal). The problem is I don't want to stop talking to her because she is just such a fascinating person to talk to and I don't want to push her away because I'm afraid I am going to lose her again. However, she won't admit it, but on the off-chance I fix things with my wife, I know it would probably really hurt her which would really bother me.
I was planning on talking to my wife today (which has now been postponed until tomorrow), to have a in depth discussion at how broken I feel our marriage is and acknowledging that a lot of that is probably my fault. Honestly, she deserves someone that is going to make her happy and that she feels connected with. I don't think I'm that guy or we wouldn't be where we are today. We both deserve to be happy and I don't think we are happy in our marriage. I honestly don't feel that I want to fix my marriage anymore at this point.
I should add that my biggest concern is my kids. One is off to college this fall and will be out of the house, but I also have a 13 year old and an 11 year old. I can't see doing this 7 more years until they are both in college. I can't take it. Everyone I have talked to has told me it will take some adjustment if you divorce, but if you focus on co-parenting and making the kids feel loved and safe, they will turn out fine. I just worry that my wife will be vindictive and try to keep me from seeing them. Everyone I've talked to has also reassured me that I deserve to be happy. Life is too short to be unhappy in a marriage.
So, that's my very long-winded summary. What the hell do I do? On one hand I lose my marriage, a lot of wealth, my house and only see my kids part-time, but potentially ultimately gain the passion filled "rest of my life" relationship I've always longed for and haven't had for 25 years. On the other, I stay in my unhappy sexless marriage on the hope that we can still find a way to fix it, but then I know I have to let my friend go and stop all contact, which would be so hard to do. I know I will always have "what if" regrets if I do that. Is this one of those moments in life where you just have to take a leap of faith and say "I need this for me" and file for divorce with the goal of starting on a new path of what my life is supposed to be (whether or not it is with my friend) or am I just being short-sighted and naive?
I would welcome your thoughts.