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Post by ironhamster on Jan 17, 2021 2:22:40 GMT -5
Thank you all for your encouragement and advice. I won’t step outside of the marriage (not judging others that do, I just can’t and neither of us would agree to that). I just can’t understand why if you truly love someone, you wouldn’t put forth the effort. I guess that’s my answer! It would be such a great stress reliever and help us to connect and be closer. I feel so defeated! My ex was never forthcoming on why, so, I will never know why. Perhaps, that "if" part of the statement is where the problem is. The logic does follow that IF you truly love someone THEN you will put forth the effort. But, if the effort is not put forth then you are not truly loved by that person. After my marriage fell apart and the divorce was imminent, I had both friends and family tell me things that my STBX had said. These were statements that had stuck in their minds sometimes from before we'd had children. I was never loved by her. My whole marriage was a sham. I spent my whole adult life pursuing someone that perhaps never saw me as a partner worthy of her.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 17, 2021 2:46:15 GMT -5
Thank you all for your encouragement and advice. I won’t step outside of the marriage (not judging others that do, I just can’t and neither of us would agree to that). I just can’t understand why if you truly love someone, you wouldn’t put forth the effort. I guess that’s my answer! It would be such a great stress reliever and help us to connect and be closer. I feel so defeated! What is “step outside the marriage?” Would stepping across town to flirt and be flirted with be stepping outside the marriage? I did this when I was still married. No touching. No meeting up after hours. But these are among the few happy memories of the last 5 years of my so-called marriage. It is true that there are varying degrees of outsourcing, and it is up to the individual to decide what they feel uncomfortable with. Is getting a massage cheating? Some people might take issue with the tactile intimacy, others might be ok with it, even if it had a "happy ending". Flirting might feel like cheating for some, but it might also provide a much needed ego boost.
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Post by baza on Jan 17, 2021 4:35:00 GMT -5
Thank you all for your encouragement and advice. I won’t step outside of the marriage (not judging others that do, I just can’t and neither of us would agree to that). I just can’t understand why if you truly love someone, you wouldn’t put forth the effort. I guess that’s my answer! It would be such a great stress reliever and help us to connect and be closer. I feel so defeated! There's a lot to consider in the replies here Sister currie94 . All I'd suggest is that you keep an open mind on all your options (few as they are) and don't rule anything out at this early stage. At least not until you have fully researched the options and are in a position to make some fully informed choices.
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Post by jerri on Jan 17, 2021 11:29:36 GMT -5
When I chose to stay, I got my hands on every video and every sexless marriage book I could. I also went to therapy and tried to convince myself that there was no other way. Sadly enough, until we are in enough pain, we won't do what really needs to be done to get real change. By the time I said enough is enough, I could count on one hand in one decade how many times I had gotten sex. Of course I could handle it, I'm strong, but I was miserable until I decided I was going to get sex one way or another.
I couldn't see myself with another man until I was so turned off by his behavior that I didn't even want him anymore. I didn't get anywhere until my focus was on my own behavior instead of my husband's. What was I going to do for myself because I knew what he wouldn't do for me. Of course my husband loved me. He showed me he loved me in any way except the way I wanted.
If your husband is telling you that you don't get along. You need to believe him. Get into therapy and see if you can you change that? My behavior reflected what I thought would be good for a normal relationship and that was the biggest mistake I made. My behavior should have reflected what I thought would be good for myself and the relationship. When he didn't come along for the ride, I didn't cheat or leave him, but he got left in the wake. There was one thing about it. He couldn't complain because I had tried everything to make it work.
You've made your decision to stay and after nine years it will take a professional, books and a lot of behavior changes, but you can only change yourself. My best thinking kept me stuck.
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Post by sadkat on Jan 17, 2021 12:45:41 GMT -5
Thank you all for your encouragement and advice. I won’t step outside of the marriage (not judging others that do, I just can’t and neither of us would agree to that). I just can’t understand why if you truly love someone, you wouldn’t put forth the effort. I guess that’s my answer! It would be such a great stress reliever and help us to connect and be closer. I feel so defeated! Feeling defeated is exactly where your h wants you. He chooses to tell you things that are hurtful as justification for his actions. I too felt unloved because my h didn’t want sex with me. Sex was something I associate intimacy with. I can’t have sex unless I’m emotionally connected with my partner. This was not the case with h. I’ll venture to guess it’s not the case with yours either. When I finally told my h I wanted out of the marriage, he denied it for months. In one of our many conversations, as I was trying to get him to understand I was serious about leaving, I told him I had felt unloved for years. He was shocked. He told me he never intended to make me feel unloved. I’m sure my h did (and still does) love me. But the sad truth is that he can’t love me in the way I need to be loved. I was in your shoes for years- 22 to be exact. I understand completely your desire to keep your children from having a split family. The decisions I made were because of my young son. Honestly, I wouldn’t change any of those decisions. What I regret is not seeking therapy sooner. My entire being was destroyed by my sm. I lost myself and my life almost spiraled out of control. Staying and remaining faithful is a perfectly valid choice. However, you’re doing yourself a disservice if you don’t find peace with it.
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Post by Handy on Jan 17, 2021 13:00:23 GMT -5
Currie94 I feel so defeated!
What helped me was doing things without trying to include my W. I learned to be more independent and be a little better at doing things just for myself. It doesn't fix the basic problem but there are fewer disappointments in my life.
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Post by isthisit on Jan 17, 2021 16:46:52 GMT -5
Thank you all for your encouragement and advice. I won’t step outside of the marriage (not judging others that do, I just can’t and neither of us would agree to that). I just can’t understand why if you truly love someone, you wouldn’t put forth the effort. I guess that’s my answer! It would be such a great stress reliever and help us to connect and be closer. I feel so defeated! Feeling defeated is exactly where your h wants you. He chooses to tell you things that are hurtful as justification for his actions. I too felt unloved because my h didn’t want sex with me. Sex was something I associate intimacy with. I can’t have sex unless I’m emotionally connected with my partner. This was not the case with h. I’ll venture to guess it’s not the case with yours either. When I finally told my h I wanted out of the marriage, he denied it for months. In one of our many conversations, as I was trying to get him to understand I was serious about leaving, I told him I had felt unloved for years. He was shocked. He told me he never intended to make me feel unloved. I’m sure my h did (and still does) love me. But the sad truth is that he can’t love me in the way I need to be loved. I was in your shoes for years- 22 to be exact. I understand completely your desire to keep your children from having a split family. The decisions I made were because of my young son. Honestly, I wouldn’t change any of those decisions. What I regret is not seeking therapy sooner. My entire being was destroyed by my sm. I lost myself and my life almost spiraled out of control. Staying and remaining faithful is a perfectly valid choice. However, you’re doing yourself a disservice if you don’t find peace with it. There is much and hard earned wisdom here. My experience is very similar to that of sadkat . My H felt “blindsided” when I dropped the bomb. Quite how I am not sure as I had been telling him for years that I was unhappy, and felt unloved and unimportant to him. He did love me very much, and I am pretty sure still does in some sort of way. But he didn’t love me in a way that I needed him to. It drained my soul. I made the choice to stay. Right up until I couldn’t. As sadkat describes, I couldn’t make peace with the life he offered and it nearly cost me my sanity trying to make myself happy with a situation that made me very unhappy. I couldn’t manage the ‘parallel life’ option, but you might be okay with this. The separation wasn’t fun, but nowhere close to the hardest thing I have done. I agree with the notion that your H is probably very happy with things as they are. He gets everything he wants and nothing he doesn’t. What’s in it for him to change a thing? Choosing to stay and give your all regardless is a valid choice, but please consider some support for you such as therapy. It’s a very hard road you seem to have chosen.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 18, 2021 8:26:46 GMT -5
For the sake of argument, I will agree that "porn addiction is a real thing" What I do NOT see is how this helps Sister currie94 . Let us say that Mister currie94 is addicted to porn. Let us also say that Mr currie94 wants to kick the habit. Let's further speculate that he kicks the porn habit. Let us imagine that having kicked the porn he then develops a hankering for real life females. Let's imagine that maybe he starts to focus on a specific woman. On what basis would you figure that the woman might be our Sister currie94 ? While I applaud the checking of expectations, i find your pessimism excessive if all those milestones come to pass. Why give up the porn at all if you weren't up for an affair at the start? Eliminating porn was her suggestion. If he goes through with it, it suggests "buy-in" on the investment in the marriage. If he discovers that the variety of porn was part of its allure, he may suggest an open marriage, he may supplement intimacy with the porn, he may use fantasy to pretend he's with another, or he can go right back to where he was, not much worse off and both partners having valuable self-knowledge as long as the possibility was foreseen and disappointment held to levels below despair. Anecdotal evidence suggests introduction of intimacy after reduction in porn use is a common outcome. How long it lasts, I have not seen. Also worthy of pointing out is sex with one's spouse being the path of least resistance. Wishing to engage in intimacy in lieu of porn presents the most obvious answer, one's previously refused spouse. As Apocrypha calls it, "why not" sex is the threshold at which intimacy can result. Barring reasons, conscious or otherwise, the refused spouse is the simplest and societally approved partner. It's convenient and pleases the spouse. It's the natural first choice. If one has no interest in the partner, one would stay, keep up the porn use, and await the divorce, or death, take an affair partner later, or open the marriage. Why bother changing what's making you happy except to give the refused a "college try"? This thread has been perhaps the most articulate, compact example of its kind that I've seen on ILIASM. Well done, everyone. Much of the same observations and inquiries, but the best delivery from everyone that I can remember. Everyone brought their A-game.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2021 12:41:02 GMT -5
I don't really think it is, 99% of the time - at least not to the degree that the help industry does. There certainly is no indication from anything said here to indicate a porn addiction. Looking at porn, even a lot, doesn't mean a porn addiction. Taking away porn doesn't mean that sex magically appears again. Was there porn on the honeymoon? It's not the porn's fault that these people don't have a mutual sexual relationship. I'm not certain how it is helpful to try to medicalize what's almost always the product of a relationship or personal dynamic, as if it's some external thing like a disease that has taken over. I believe you theorized that he was likely hiding his porn usage, and it might be three times a week. If he is hiding it, and going to it instead of her, my assumption is that his neural pathways are programmed for the instant reward. Again, whether it's "neural pathways rewired" doesn't make a difference if he doesn't have a sexual connection with his wife. This is the most difficult thing for people on her to wrap their heads around: the notion that THEY DO NOT HAVE A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR LIVING PARTNER. The failure to understand that at a fundamental level then prompts them to view their partner's "pool of sexual horniness" as some kind of pie, that they are entitled to a piece of - a pie that's instead handed out to other people or places. Other people or porn orgs - are eating YOUR PIE. It isn't helpful to you or the OP or anyone else to think this. I'll tell you a story from when I was trapped in this thinking. I walked in on Mrs Apocrypha with her pants off, legs spread, enjoying herself while watching a video of a certain music star. Said video was available to anyone - kid friendly - and I was aware of her admiration. no porn was needed. Mrs Apocrypha also "zoned out" or disassociated" when she was having occasional sex with me. She also had affairs, and she likely fantasized about those affairs when she was having sex with me. In all of those cases, she was reluctant to the point of humiliation and shame - to share this private expression of her sexuality with me. She was horny - as most "averse" people are eventually proven to be. She simply didn't see me as a viable sexual partner. Her sexual expression had NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. I had no claims on it - and I did not understand that. My offer to her when I walked in on her was confusing to both of us - possibly even traumatizing to her - because while she was horny - she did not wish to have sex with me. People in sexually averse relationships - no matter which side of the coin you are on - have libidos and resort to various ways to vent their sexual frustration. A person who does NOT want to have sex with his partner but who does have a marriage that he's trying to preserve, will almost certainly resort to regular porn and fantasy as a non-cheating outlet. How else would they survive the partnership? Blaming vigorous porn, or sexy pop stars, or the massage setting on a shower nozzle for causing sexual dysfunction is like saying wet streets cause rain.
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Post by Handy on Jan 18, 2021 14:46:06 GMT -5
.....s like saying wet streets cause rain.
I like that idea.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2021 15:01:10 GMT -5
For the sake of argument, I will agree that "porn addiction is a real thing" What I do NOT see is how this helps Sister currie94 . Let us say that Mister currie94 is addicted to porn. Let us also say that Mr currie94 wants to kick the habit. Let's further speculate that he kicks the porn habit. Let us imagine that having kicked the porn he then develops a hankering for real life females. Let's imagine that maybe he starts to focus on a specific woman. On what basis would you figure that the woman might be our Sister currie94 ? While I applaud the checking of expectations, i find your pessimism excessive if all those milestones come to pass. Why give up the porn at all if you weren't up for an affair at the start? Eliminating porn was her suggestion. If he goes through with it, it suggests "buy-in" on the investment in the marriage. This vagueness on "investment in the marriage" symbolism is the exact way people gaslight themselves on their prospects and remedies in this circumstance. Start with these two assumptions: 1. That partner does NOT want to have sex with currie94 Evidence: He doesn't have sex with her. It would be easy to have sex with her - opportunity plus she's more than willing. There is substantial risk to the associated benefits of the marriage and to her feelings in NOT having sex with her - a cost will be paid. If it was just "why not?" or indifference, then why not say "yes?" She's likely putting in most of the effort. He's exercising his sexual expression in areas that don't include her - and this is seen. 2. He, like currie94, also values the marriage (or if not a marriage - the lifestyle and benefits provided by it, and/or his sense of familiarity and non-eros love of @currie94 Evidence: He has not, to date, left her. There is no evidence of an affair yet. He's presently seeking outlets to express his sexuality that hopefully don't involve other people. He appears not to have raised the discussion of separation yet. currie94 wants a sexual relationship with him, in the context of the marriage. Her goal is to start to have a sexual relationship with her husband, and thus save the marriage. Her husband does not want a sexual relationship with her, is well aware of her non-mutual desire, and also wants to save the marriage/association/relationship. His goal is to circumvent, defer or obfuscate her centering of sexual expression in their dynamic, and thus save the marriage. The more focus there is on the absence of a unique mutual attraction, the more threat there is of separation. By centering the conversation on vague symbolic behaviors, such as "giving up porn/cards with the boys/watching sports/X hobby", to, as you say "suggest buy-in on investment in the marriage", he wins at his goal. a) he successfully defers the problem of not seeing her as a viable sexual partner, kicking a marriage-terminating conversation farther down the road b) appearing to be playing ball with her, "moving in the right direction", demonstrating "investment" - without really needing to resort to having the sexual intercourse that he doesn't want to have with her. When you want to have sex with someone, you have sex with them. Even if there is a high degree of inconvenience or enormous risk, you do it because you really want it with that person, or if you compromise - with anyone who will have it with you.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2021 15:12:35 GMT -5
Thank you all for your encouragement and advice. I won’t step outside of the marriage (not judging others that do, I just can’t and neither of us would agree to that). I just can’t understand why if you truly love someone, you wouldn’t put forth the effort. I guess that’s my answer! It would be such a great stress reliever and help us to connect and be closer. I feel so defeated! It's certainly an understandable statement: *With someone I want to have sex with, it's a great stress reliever and a way to connect and be closer. I'd say even with someone where I'm ambivalent on having sex with -whether because I'm not all that physically attracted, or if there are complications in the association, or if having sex promises something I don't intend to follow through with - it can also be a stress reliever and help me connect and be closer. I've had friendships in certain circumstances that included irregular periods of sexual activity between us - and I have appreciated this. I've been reticent whereas my friend was in need, and I've said "why not?" and enjoyed the feeling of being able to help a friend with a desperate need that I certainly understood, despite not being a viable partner for me. BUT, think of someone in your life who you most definitely DO NOT want to have sex with - anyone at all - a close relative, coworker, enemy, ex-boyfriend, stranger - the person behind the counter at 7/11, a stranger who was rude to a waitress, and imagine if your whole lifestyle, home, finances etc depended on you having sex with that person. Imagine a game show with a big winning prize given to two people, as long as they lived a sexual married lifestyle with someone they do not want to have sex with. Still stress-free? Would having to have sex with someone who you don't want to have sex with bring you closer together? I know this is a harsh toke, and I'm so sorry for that - I do understand feeling defeated in this way. If it helps, understand that this needn't be some sort of comment on your objective, universal sexual appeal. One thing I've found in dating is that people are peculiar, with different tastes and urges. While my wife would have sooner dissociated than have sex with me, and regarded it as trauma - in years since I've realized that other women find me attractive and even highly desirable. This comes down to first deciding on whether or not you feel sexual intimacy is a part of marriage. Your husband has given you a fairly clear signal and proof of his intention and justification for it. Now it comes down to you deciding whether that qualifies as a marriage, or if it qualifies as a relationship that is something other than a marriage. A lot of people - particularly those averse to sex with their partner - like to frame it as Sex Vs Marriage - as in would you give up your marriage to have sex - but this sneaks the premise that marriage is a celibate association, which it is not.
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